Ground forces = game changer

[polski]

Was listening to a golf360 podcast that had Michael Finney on it. I think he makes some interesting comments on kinetics and the importance of GRF's and is definitely worth listening too. He makes a good argument that the forces applied to the handle of the club are possibly more important and you get more 'bang for your buck' making a change at the grip than on the ground. 

 

Personally at this stage I don't think that devices that allow us to measure ground forces are a game changer. They definitely have their place and I think from a speed perspective can be very important. A mass produced device at a reasonable price that allows us to measure the actual forces the golfer is applying at the grip would be very interesting and could possibly be a game changer. However I think we will be waiting a long time for that. 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by polski

[Trap Junior]

I recently had a lesson on the GASP force plates but found it slightly complicated and while in theory I know what the guy recommended I am not having much success with his advice and have actually lost speed at least for now. 

Any advice?

[Dufferonius]

Nitpick (but it's a pretty big nit, IMO): I've seen the words "weight shift" used several times in this thread to discuss employing ground forces.  It's not a weight shift, it's a pressure, or force shift.  They're not the same thing.

 

In terms of the ground force discussion: Weight should always remain centered and balanced.  The force, or pressure shifts are accomplished with the large leg muscles and glutes.

 

"What's the difference?" one may ask.  "You say poh-tay-toh, I say poh-tah-toh."  The difference matters because words have meaning and our minds will attempt to get our bodies to do what we tell them we want them to do.

 

Shifting weight during a swing leads to sway and slide.  Never good.

 

[airjammer]

2 hours ago, Trap Junior said:

I recently had a lesson on the GASP force plates but found it slightly complicated and while in theory I know what the guy recommended I am not having much success with his advice and have actually lost speed at least for now. 

Any advice?

What did they suggest you do exactly?

[GLF4EVR]

Just to toss this one out...back in the early 70's we used small branches underneath the outside edge of our feet to get the feel for it.  I have a couple pieces of 1/2" diameter pipe in my golf locker if I ever need to work on this.

[glk]

2 hours ago, Dufferonius said:

Nitpick (but it's a pretty big nit, IMO): I've seen the words "weight shift" used several times in this thread to discuss employing ground forces.  It's not a weight shift, it's a pressure, or force shift.  They're not the same thing.

 

In terms of the ground force discussion: Weight should always remain centered and balanced.  The force, or pressure shifts are accomplished with the large leg muscles and glutes.

 

"What's the difference?" one may ask.  "You say poh-tay-toh, I say poh-tah-toh."  The difference matters because words have meaning and our minds will attempt to get our bodies to do what we tell them we want them to do.

 

Shifting weight during a swing leads to sway and slide.  Never good.

 

Actually there is a weight shift in the swing - it is relatively small - an inch or so away from target in backswing and more in transition toward the target.  The con is not static it moves away from target and up before going down and forward

Edited September 23, 2022 by glk

[Dufferonius]

25 minutes ago, glk said:

Actually there is a weight shift in the swing - it is relatively small - an inch or so away from target in backswing and more in transition toward the target.

Yeah, I thought about mentioning the slight hip-shift target-wards at initiating the downswing, but didn't want to turn it into a small treatise on swing mechanics 😄

 

That's supposed to be a very slight shift or surf move, though, and, in the context of ground forces, because that's what we're talking about, not the major force.

 

As for the slight weight shift back on the back-swing: I disagree with that.  I slightly pre-load the trail leg just as I begin my back-swing, but I don't shift in that direction at all.  My pelvis remains centered from setup through top of back-swing.

 

25 minutes ago, glk said:

The con is not static it moves away from target and up before going down and forward

Depends upon the golfer.  Some stand up a bit in their back-swing and some do not.  I do a little bit.

 

But, again: The subject is ground forces.  Those are effected via the large muscle groups in the legs and the glutes.

 

[wagolfer7]

4 minutes ago, Dufferonius said:

That's supposed to be a very slight shift or surf move, though, and, in the context of ground forces, because that's what we're talking about, not the major force.

 

I think the lateral shift is a big part of the major force in terms of ground forces.  You look at WLD players and they have a much more noticeable lateral shift to increase the ground pressure and speed.  Most PGA players have a noticeable lateral shift.            

[glk]

17 minutes ago, Dufferonius said:

Yeah, I thought about mentioning the slight hip-shift target-wards at initiating the downswing, but didn't want to turn it into a small treatise on swing mechanics 😄

 

That's supposed to be a very slight shift or surf move, though, and, in the context of ground forces, because that's what we're talking about, not the major force.

 

As for the slight weight shift back on the back-swing: I disagree with that.  I slightly pre-load the trail leg just as I begin my back-swing, but I don't shift in that direction at all.  My pelvis remains centered from setup through top of back-swing.

 

Depends upon the golfer.  Some stand up a bit in their back-swing and some do not.  I do a little bit.

 

But, again: The subject is ground forces.  Those are effected via the large muscle groups in the legs and the glutes.

 

The graph I supplied was from a dr kwon talk.   His shurn or stepping rhythm    Called shift, turn, shift, turn.   He among others have measured this and though not the only way to create grf, dr kwon has found it to be the most effective.      I’m attending his level 1 certification next month, enrollment is still open if interested can enroll(though the early enrollment discount is not longer offered.)

[Dufferonius]

12 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I think the lateral shift is a big part of the major force in terms of ground forces.

I'm not saying it's not a major move, but that little surf, in and of itself, doesn't generate any ground forces.

 

Try it, sometime.  From a setup position (you don't need a club for this), simply do a little hip-shift target-wards.  Then begin pushing that lead buttock back, followed by pushing your hip turn with your legs.  (That last is described by my instructors as feeling like you're trying to screw yourself into the ground with your feet.)

 

That little hip-shift doesn't really feel like much, does it?

 

12 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

You look at WLD players and they have a much more noticeable lateral shift to increase the ground pressure and speed.  Most PGA players have a noticeable lateral shift.            

Ok, I just watched a "PGA best swings" compilation video on YT.  Looks like about what my current instructors train: A couple inches, then hip rotation begins.  Most of their lateral movement occurs after impact.

 

2 minutes ago, glk said:

... enrollment is still open if interested can enroll(though the early enrollment discount is not longer offered.)

I'm still in training with my current instructors.  I'm just gonna stick with what they have me doing.  But thanks for the lead.

 

[wagolfer7]

23 minutes ago, Dufferonius said:

I'm not saying it's not a major move, but that little surf, in and of itself, doesn't generate any ground forces.

 

Try it, sometime.  From a setup position (you don't need a club for this), simply do a little hip-shift target-wards.  Then begin pushing that lead buttock back, followed by pushing your hip turn with your legs.  (That last is described by my instructors as feeling like you're trying to screw yourself into the ground with your feet.)

 

That little hip-shift doesn't really feel like much, does it?

 

Ok, I just watched a "PGA best swings" compilation video on YT.  Looks like about what my current instructors train: A couple inches, then hip rotation begins.  Most of their lateral movement occurs after impact.

 

I'm still in training with my current instructors.  I'm just gonna stick with what they have me doing.  But thanks for the lead.

 

 

I get what you are saying.  You can create ground force reactions many different ways.  The ideal way is to move and sequence properly and utilize the larger muscles. 

 

However - in my experience and my own understanding - that lateral shift in the downswing is one of the biggest contributors in increasing your total ground force pressure.  It would be a lot more lateral movement than a few inches, if we weren't bracing on that lead leg to keep the pressure on the ball of our lead foot.  

Edited September 23, 2022 by wagolfer7

[glk]

25 minutes ago, Dufferonius said:

I'm not saying it's not a major move, but that little surf, in and of itself, doesn't generate any ground forces.

 

Try it, sometime.  From a setup position (you don't need a club for this), simply do a little hip-shift target-wards.  Then begin pushing that lead buttock back, followed by pushing your hip turn with your legs.  (That last is described by my instructors as feeling like you're trying to screw yourself into the ground with your feet.)

 

That little hip-shift doesn't really feel like much, does it?

 

Ok, I just watched a "PGA best swings" compilation video on YT.  Looks like about what my current instructors train: A couple inches, then hip rotation begins.  Most of their lateral movement occurs after impact.

 

I'm still in training with my current instructors.  I'm just gonna stick with what they have me doing.  But thanks for the lead.

 

Dr kwon biomechanics certification is not a golf lesson or substitute for lessons.    His research is the basis for much of which is not being taught by instructors.   His course are mainly for golf professionals, in all areas, as well as just plain old golf geeks.

 

but here is amg video on the shurn movement with measurements.  As they say a vanilla example - players do more of less.   
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cgopp-Vl8nO/?hl=en

[Dufferonius]

27 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

However - in my experience and my own understanding - that lateral shift in the downswing is one of the biggest contributors in increasing your total ground force pressure.  

That is probably true.  A kind of set-up move?  Dunno.  I'm neither a golf instructor nor an expert in biomechanics 🙂

 

14 minutes ago, glk said:

Dr kwon biomechanics certification is not a golf lesson or substitute for lessons.    His research is the basis for much of which is not being taught by instructors.

Except mine does teach that stuff.  The guy who started the on-line academy from which I'm getting my swing lessons graduated from a golf academy and has a degree in biomechanics.  They teach not only what you need to do, but why you need to do it, the way or ways to get there, and why what they're teaching works.  They also demonstrate faulty moves, how and why they happen, and why they're faulty.

 

I might be inclined to follow-up on your suggestion, because I find the biomechanics of the golf swing fascinating, but I've already so much going on up in my aged noggin there's little room for any more, right now 🤣

 

[Dufferonius]

19 hours ago, glk said:

The graph I supplied was from a dr kwon talk.   His shurn or stepping rhythm    Called shift, turn, shift, turn.   He among others have measured this and though not the only way to create grf, dr kwon has found it to be the most effective.

Just tried a little experiment during my back-to-the-target warm-up drills, just now: A very slight, almost imperceptible weight shift to the trail leg, then begin the turn back.

 

Might have promise. The feel (and, yeah, "feels" can lead to disaster, so you have to be careful trusting too much in them) gave me the sense it might add stability to my back-swing?

 

Will have to see what happens with club in hand.  And, of course, video the results from both front and down-line to make sure I'm not messing something else up.

 

Generally I'm disinclined to Randomly Add Stuff to the training I'm getting.  But this may turn out to be an exception.  I'll have to play with it.

 

[glk]

6 hours ago, Dufferonius said:

Just tried a little experiment during my back-to-the-target warm-up drills, just now: A very slight, almost imperceptible weight shift to the trail leg, then begin the turn back.

 

Might have promise. The feel (and, yeah, "feels" can lead to disaster, so you have to be careful trusting too much in them) gave me the sense it might add stability to my back-swing?

 

Will have to see what happens with club in hand.  And, of course, video the results from both front and down-line to make sure I'm not messing something else up.

 

Generally I'm disinclined to Randomly Add Stuff to the training I'm getting.  But this may turn out to be an exception.  I'll have to play with it.

 

can talk with your coach if don’t know what university he got his biomechanics degree from but id assume he would know of dr kwon and his work.
 

It is a move to start the swing that has been done for decades.  Hogan, tiger, dj, jt, Xander , . . .

 

good to have a trigger like a slight shift to lead side then go with body shifting slightly even before the club moves.   https://www.instagram.com/p/Cen48YwFXAJ/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_SXD4MFBJ7/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_WFsP2FW_q/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CK35qAdF5kL/

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cd6F9WKF1la/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfYrN2olxYP/

like how you throw - there is a shift first.   Shift, rotate, shift , rotate.  Important to unweight the lead side during backswing and shift left by  the top - shift, unweight, shift is key to max grf and grf torque.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAYGhArFN1O/

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by glk

[Scottbox]

Salted insoles are great!  Additionally, I use this and really like it: https://zengolfmechanics.youbookappointments.co.uk/product/zen-grf-infinity-board-pre-order/.

 

Yeah, it's a little expensive and I suppose you could build your own but how much is your time worth? Also you get access to a great 2-hour video on how to work with it. That alone is worth the money.

 

Wowza, I'm starting to turn into an infomercial. "NOW HOW MUCH WOULD YOU PAY?"

[glk]

3 minutes ago, Scottbox said:

Salted insoles are great!  Additionally, I use this and really like it: https://zengolfmechanics.youbookappointments.co.uk/product/zen-grf-infinity-board-pre-order/.

 

Yeah, it's a little expensive and I suppose you could build your own but how much is your time worth? Also you get access to a great 2-hour video on how to work with it. That alone is worth the money.

 

Wowza, I'm starting to turn into an infomercial. "NOW HOW MUCH WOULD YOU PAY?"

When I attended dr kwon recent mini talks he mentioned that in his opinion a pressure board (like the Sheftic version) is better than a pressure mat unless you have access to pressure plates.    He didn’t see much value in the old pressure mats that just measure vertical pressure.    Do t know what he would think of that infinity board - I’m in his next set of classes so if I remember I can ask.

[Trap Junior]

What are the best shoes for creating the most ground force?

[Trap Junior]

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 AM, GoTime said:

 

 

This vid is a good and basic explanation

I am a bit confused by this.   AMG guys say you dont push off the trail leg in transition but fall onto front leg.  This seems to say you push down and squat on both legs in transitions and then jump up.

 

I was on force plates recently with 2 different guys.  One had GASP and the other had some other brand (red and blue plates).

 

Anyway the first guy said I need pressure longer in my right foot on the backswing and the other guy said I have too much pressure on my right foot at the top.  (I'm right handed golfer).

Confusing.  Also I was told I need more rotational horizontal torque on the backswing and was told to turn deeper but on GEARS I was overturning my pelvis and torso on the backswing.  So not sure who or what is right.

[Dufferonius]

Both could be right.  I think they're saying different things.  More pressure on the way to the top, less once you reach the top?

 

Rotational torque means use your legs, hips, lats and obliques to turn.  Push with legs/hips and pull with obliques/lats.

 

"Turn deeper" doesn't mean "turn further."  You want to keep the club more-or-less straight back during take-away and keep the trail arm more-or-less straight until you need to bring the trail elbow in as you approach the top of your back-swing, keeping it inside your shirt's seam line.

 

About 50% of the turn is hips, the other 50% or so upper body.

 

It's ok to rotate back more than 90° total, but it may make it harder to downswing without stalling your hips at some point.  That's an individual thing.

 

[Trap Junior]

11 minutes ago, Dufferonius said:

Both could be right.  I think they're saying different things.  More pressure on the way to the top, less once you reach the top?

 

Rotational torque means use your legs, hips, lats and obliques to turn.  Push with legs/hips and pull with obliques/lats.

 

"Turn deeper" doesn't mean "turn further."  You want to keep the club more-or-less straight back during take-away and keep the trail arm more-or-less straight until you need to bring the trail elbow in as you approach the top of your back-swing, keeping it inside your shirt's seam line.

 

About 50% of the turn is hips, the other 50% or so upper body.

 

It's ok to rotate back more than 90° total, but it may make it harder to downswing without stalling your hips at some point.  That's an individual thing.

 

See the AMG boys say 70% pressure on right foot at the end of the takeaway and then it start equalising gradually until its 50/50 at the top.  So either I am misunderstanding or they believe in different things.

 

Also the guy wanted me to turn deeper and faster on the backswing but on the radars I seem to be losing speed doing this. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Trap Junior

[AimingAtHazards]

13 hours ago, Trap Junior said:

What are the best shoes for creating the most ground force?

I was curious about this also. In cycling having stiffer soles helps with pedaling efficiency. Does the same apply here as well?

[Dufferonius]

Whatever shoes it takes to keep your feet securely planted on the ground, such that they don't slip out from under you as you apply force to them, and that give your feet the support they need.

 

[DrDon]

6 hours ago, Trap Junior said:

I am a bit confused by this.   AMG guys say you dont push off the trail leg in transition but fall onto front leg.  This seems to say you push down and squat on both legs in transitions and then jump up.

 

I was on force plates recently with 2 different guys.  One had GASP and the other had some other brand (red and blue plates).

 

Anyway the first guy said I need pressure longer in my right foot on the backswing and the other guy said I have too much pressure on my right foot at the top.  (I'm right handed golfer).

Confusing.  Also I was told I need more rotational horizontal torque on the backswing and was told to turn deeper but on GEARS I was overturning my pelvis and torso on the backswing.  So not sure who or what is right.

 

Exactly how I feel.   Too much conflicting information out there in the never-ending search to swing better and play better golf.