Advantages of 430cc vs 460cc driver

[Titleist_PT23]

Just now, Nard_S said:

Fact: OEM's sell 45.5" as standard length.

Fact: PGA Pro's overwhelmingly use less than 45.5"

 

Fact:  It's not 44.5 like you claimed.  

[Nard_S]

Just now, agolf1 said:

Fact:  It's not 44.5 like you claimed.  

It's less but you're saying going to 46-48 is no biggie. Get real.

 

[Titleist_PT23]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

Fact: OEM's sell 45.5" as standard length.

Fact: PGA Pro's overwhelmingly use less than 45.5"

 

For clarity, at least at PING there is 1 player at 44.5 and 6 players at 45.5 or above.  But lets keep using 44.5.  LOL.

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, agolf1 said:

For clarity, at least at PING there is 1 player at 44.5 and 6 players at 45.5 or above.  But lets keep using 44.5.  LOL.

So all your stats are from one OEM? Really? 

[Nard_S]

What's the average driver shaft length on the PGA Tour? Fully Equipped (golf.com)

[Nard_S]

44.75" is answer.

[Titleist_PT23]

2 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

It's less but you're saying going to 46-48 is no biggie. Get real.

 

I've said many won't get there.  But some will if they practice it.  But even trying is often discouraged because people that play < 45 think everyone must still be that way.  Quoting 44.5 when that's the wrong number is a great illustration.  You have something stuck in your head and believe it so much but it's just not true.

 

I think many of the current PGA players wont' go (much) longer.  They are accustomed to ~45.227 or whatever it is.  The same way old geezers here are accustomed to "44.5."  But let's see how the stats evolve over time.  Those that predicted it would stay at 44.5 would have been wrong.

[Titleist_PT23]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

44.75" is answer.

Are long drivers here to stay? (pgatour.com)

 

Newer article.  Things change.  Things changing is a tough concept for some.

[Titleist_PT23]

4 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

So all your stats are from one OEM? Really? 

I'd love to have more OEM stats but those are the ones I could find. But it's definitely not 44.5, which you thought it was.  

[Nard_S]

8 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

I'd love to have more OEM stats but those are the ones I could find. But it's definitely not 44.5, which you thought it was.  

44.75 " is a lot closer 45.5" all day. Article is 1 year old. Wow, wish I was so hip to latest trends.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Nard_S

[Nard_S]

Btw, Ping is #5 in driver usage in 2021. That's not exactly a great sampling.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Nard_S

[Titleist_PT23]

2 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

44.5 " is a lot closer 45.5" all day. Article is 1 year old. Wow, wish I was so hip to latest trends.

Current article is "around 45."  One OEM we can find is 45.227.  I'd be happy to see and consider anything that shows there are more < 45 than > 45.  You have no proof but still think it's closer to 44.5.  Maybe you are right but your mind is stuck in the past.

 

And let's see how it goes over the next 5-10 years when more younger players join the tour.  Again, many thought it would remain 44.5.  That was wrong.

[Titleist_PT23]

Just now, Nard_S said:

Btw, Ping is #5 in usage in 2021. That's not exactly a great sampling.

It's better than the nothing you currently have.  Again, happy to reconsider or be wrong when more stats are shown.

[Titleist_PT23]

11 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Btw, Ping is #5 in driver usage in 2021. That's not exactly a great sampling.

No PING guys here.  Average 45.3.  1 of 5 < 45, 1 of 5 = 45, 3 of 5 > 45.  Not one at 44.5

 

Equipment insider: Detailed WITBs of the OWGR top 5 – GolfWRX

[Red4282]

The trend is getting longer on tour for sure. I think 45.5 will be average soon enough with some playing 46+. I think you will also see a shift in equipment, shafts and heads to accommodate this as well. As far as head size, 30ccs imo  isnt much in the grand scheme of things

[llewol007]

Not much difference

[Howard_Jones]

Dustin Jophnson the world No #1 at the moment did try a 47.00" but its not beneficial when a driver like that messes up his swing and timing for the rest of the bag.
 

Sbarbaro revealed that the TaylorMade SIM driver with the 47-inch Fujikura Ventus Black shaft had given Johnson about 10 yards more distance while increasing his ball speed to as much as 193 mph. However, it also affected his timing with other clubs in his bag.
 

Ultimately, Johnson decided against making the change, deciding to keep his TaylorMade SIM with the 45.75-inch shaft in play.

The fact that he had a game [on Tuesday] where he was playing with other great players and had to play well, I think that was a huge benefit to get that club out of the bag,”

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/dustin-johnson-almost-switched-longer-driver-shaft-masters-win

Dustin Johnson is 6.4" tall and plays irons thats plus 0.5" vs standard (last time i checked), so his 45.75" long driver aint that long really.

We say that a AMATEUR who plays "standard" in irons would fit a 44.00" driver. Elite amateurs and pros can add 0.5" who gives 44.50"
A player who plays + 0.5" in irons should add the same to the driver, and we are now at 45.00"

Dustin Johnson playes a driver 0.75" longer than my typical recommendations, but we are talking one of the best ball strikers on this globe, so dont expect that general guidelines will cover players like him, this numbers is STATING POINTS for testing, and 0.75" aint a "huge" step longer, and since he plays TM, he will play THE SHORTEST 45.75" driver on the tour. (measure standards)

He had a potential gain of whopping 10 yards using a shaft thats 1.25" longer than he have been using and went back to, and for the majority of players those 10 yards extra would be quite easy to find without going longer, most have a way larger potential without a longer shaft.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Howard_Jones]

Im adding this chart based on Flighstcopes algorithm who show how much we by ease could gain or loose for a 100 mph club speed player, ALL due to impact position on the face. A longer shaft will reduce the players odds for how many of his swings who actually makes a good impact in the area of the face we want it, and that also means dispersion WILL suffer, not only distance.


 

[Titleist_PT23]

35 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Dustin Jophnson the world No #1 at the moment did try a 47.00" but its not beneficial when a driver like that messes up his swing and timing for the rest of the bag.
 

Sbarbaro revealed that the TaylorMade SIM driver with the 47-inch Fujikura Ventus Black shaft had given Johnson about 10 yards more distance while increasing his ball speed to as much as 193 mph. However, it also affected his timing with other clubs in his bag.
 

Ultimately, Johnson decided against making the change, deciding to keep his TaylorMade SIM with the 45.75-inch shaft in play.

The fact that he had a game [on Tuesday] where he was playing with other great players and had to play well, I think that was a huge benefit to get that club out of the bag,”

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/dustin-johnson-almost-switched-longer-driver-shaft-masters-win

Dustin Johnson is 6.4" tall and plays irons thats plus 0.5" vs standard (last time i checked), so his 45.75" long driver aint that long really.

We say that a AMATEUR who plays "standard" in irons would fit a 44.00" driver. Elite amateurs and pros can add 0.5" who gives 44.50"
A player who plays + 0.5" in irons should add the same to the driver, and we are now at 45.00"

Dustin Johnson playes a driver 0.75" longer than my typical recommendations, but we are talking one of the best ball strikers on this globe, so dont expect that general guidelines will cover players like him, this numbers is STATING POINTS for testing, and 0.75" aint a "huge" step longer, and since he plays TM, he will play THE SHORTEST 45.75" driver on the tour. (measure standards)

He had a potential gain of whopping 10 yards using a shaft thats 1.25" longer than he have been using and went back to, and for the majority of players those 10 yards extra would be quite easy to find without going longer, most have a way larger potential without a longer shaft.

I respect there is a limit for everyone and pros have unique characteristics.  But I am also quite certain that ~5 years ago there were many posts that said even among pros, "rarely/never seen a player benefitting > 45."  But now we see that a LOT more.  There is a potential explanation or exclusion for each player but when it looks like the average has gone to 45 or perhaps 45+, it seems like something has changed.

[Titleist_PT23]

11 hours ago, Nard_S said:

What Pro's do and what they gravitate towards does and should have bearing, After all they do this for a living  and they hit thousands of balls a week

You gonna lengthen your driver 0.25 to 0.5 because that's what it looks like has happened?  Or, this statement was false too?

[Nard_S]

Just now, agolf1 said:

You gonna lengthen your driver 0.25 to 0.5 because that's what it looks like has happened?  Or, this statement was false too?

DJ is 6 foot 4" and he plays 45.75......................I'm 5'9", I'm good at 44.75 which what I've been playing for 3 years. Btw, perhaps you need more inches to get more distance, I do not.

[Titleist_PT23]

FYI, here's some comments from the past.  The trend of longer had started then and there is some contemplation that maybe times have changed (players, equipment, etc).

 

Driver length. PGA and lpga - WRX Club Techs - GolfWRX

 

[Titleist_PT23]

4 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

DJ is 6 foot 4" and he plays 45.75......................I'm 5'9", I'm good at 44.75 which what I've been playing for 3 years. Btw, perhaps you need more inches to get more distance, I do not.

So is it 44.5 and what the pros gravitate to does and should have bearing?  Or it's longer than 44.5 and when what the pros gravitate to does and should have bearing doesn't fit what you want to say then it no longer matters?

[Howard_Jones]

20 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

So is it 44.5 and what the pros gravitate to does and should have bearing?  Or it's longer than 44.5 and when what the pros gravitate to does and should have bearing doesn't fit what you want to say then it no longer matters?

That question is plain out silly since its a question of the players size and his abilities, so if we could find as example that more than  50% of PGA players played irons thats was plus 0.5", would that be a good example to follow?

Since you ignore the reason for why some players is 0.5" below standard and other 0.5" above, what makes you think the number itself makes any sense at all when there is no common measure standards for how long 45.00" or what ever measurement actually is?

If it should make any sense at all, you will have to make a list of players with measurements like height, WTF, Iron specs and driver specs, and you will also have to find a conversion factor between brands, then you can sort out those who plays "standard" irons and find the average play lengths for their drivers, the same for those who plays irons at plus 0.5 ....good luck with that.

By the way, longer shafts did no come last year or the latest few.....i played a 45.75" driver "off the rack" more than 10 years ago. (first model of Callaway FTi back in 2007 if i recall right, so its 14 years ago)

Edited February 25, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Titleist_PT23]

@Howard_Jones let me ask a serious question on the pros.  Why do you think it has apparently gone longer (on average)?  Different reasons I can come up with are:

 

a) the distance-dispersion with a longer club is just as bad as before but the course setups and competition have changed (even recently) that makes the trade-off best for competing today.

b) it's a fad

c) all (or more) players are of DJ's like built and "require" a longer club.

 

d) younger players that weren't fixed to a shorter club actually learn fine with a longer club.  they don't know shorter as normal.  it's really the same as the change from 43.5 to 44.5 (with some combo of f) below).

e) players, pro fitters, and swing coaches have changed their mind.  Previously, I can see no one (seriously) tried it because everyone believed < 45 was the limit.  Guy has swung 44.5 forever and tries longer but the results suck so he quits.  For whatever reason, enough people made it OK to use longer.  As a result, other pros put in serious practice time with a longer club and found it's actually not so bad.

f) clubhead has changed such that you can play a longer shaft and get the same results dispersion wise.

 

I do not know the answer for sure, but when I see something different going on I like to try and understand why.  In contrast, I think many here are fixated to measurements from ~10 years ago (44.5).  If it's mainly a) through c), I think that says one thing.  If it's mainly d) through f), that says something else. 

 

Thanks.

[Titleist_PT23]

9 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

That question is plain out silly since its a question of the players size and his abilities, so if we could find as example that more than  50% of PGA players played irons thats was plus 0.5", would that be a good example to follow?

Since you ignore the reason for why some players is 0.5" below standard and other 0.5" above, what makes you think the number itself makes any sense at all when there is no common measure standards for how long 45.00" or what ever measurement actually is?

If it should make any sense at all, you will have to make a list of players with measurements like height, WTF, Iron specs and driver specs, and you will also have to find a conversion factor between brands, then you can sort out those who plays "standard" irons and find the average play lengths for their drivers, the same for those who plays irons at plus 0.5 ....good luck with that.

By the way, longer shafts did no come last year or the latest few.....i played a 45.75" driver "off the rack" more than 10 years ago. (first model of Callaway FTi back in 2007 if i recall right, so its 14 years ago)

Lets take Adam Scott.  I believe he's been the same physical build (height, WTF) for the last 20 years?  He's migrated from 43.5 to 45.0 and now 46.0.  Any elements of a), b), e) or f) from my post above?  Or something else?

 

 

Without getting too much into the background of it all, the equipment has come so far since I turned pro and I’ve played Titleist my entire career, this is my 20th year with them. The DNA of my golf swing has had to adapt as changes in equipment have been made. The difference in what we’re playing now versus when I turned pro is quite a bit. I played a 137-gram shaft with a small 975D head at 43.5 inches. Now it’s 45 inches with a 460cc head and a shaft that weighs about half as much. There’s a lot of adapting, albeit gradual.

[Howard_Jones]

That easier to answer...

The hunt for more distance will never end....
Humans get taller from generation to generation. i have not done the math for PGA pros for each decade, this is the general in the population, so lets just take a few old timers and compare them to a few players of today.

Ben Hogan had is area from 1931 as a pro, he was 1.74 cm or 5.8"
Arnold Palmer had his area from 1955 and he was 1.78 or 5.9",
....the same was Jack Nicklaus. His area is starting about 1961
Then we have Seve Ballesteros. His area is early 70s and later, and he was 1.83 cm or 6.0", and today we have players like Dustin Johnson and many others up at 6.4"

A fast google search on this subject on the general population came up with this:

"The average British man has ballooned over the past 60 years and is now taller and heavier but also stronger and healthier. In 1954, the typical Brit was just over 5.7" tall, Today the average is 5.9"

Then we have the old vs the new world, 60 years ago being a full time professional player was not very common, to day its many of them, and our knowledge about the golf swing and how equipment actually works has improved big time.

That means some of the development is "natural evolution" we improve, so has the conditions needed to improve.

Summary - Taller and better players.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Titleist_PT23]

5 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

That easier to answer...

The hunt for more distance will never end....
Humans get taller from generation to generation. i have not done the math for PGA pros for each decade, this is the general in the population, so lets just take a few old timers and compare them to a few players of today.

Ben Hogan had is area from 1931 as a pro, he was 1.74 cm or 5.8"
Arnold Palmer had his area from 1955 and he was 1.78 or 5.9",
....the same was Jack Nicklaus. His area is starting about 1961
Then we have Seve Ballesteros. His area is early 70s and later, and he was 1.83 cm or 6.0", and today we have players like Dustin Johnson and many others up at 6.4"

A fast google search on this subject on the general population came up with this:

"The average British man has ballooned over the past 60 years and is now taller and heavier but also stronger and healthier. In 1954, the typical Brit was just over 5.7" tall, Today the average is 5.9"

Then we have the old vs the new world, 60 years ago being a full time professional player was not very common, to day its many of them, and our knowledge about the golf swing and how equipment actually works has improved big time.

That means some of the development is "natural evolution" we improve, so has the conditions needed to improve.

Summary - Taller and better players.

Over time agree.  But I think the biggest question is has the length increased in the last 10 years (since the 460 cc head has been constant)?  As you say, maybe the tour player height has changed in the last 10 years and that explains everything.  But most people don't say that.  They say pros = 44.5.  But it looks like the pros average length has increased in recent years.

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, agolf1 said:

Over time agree.  But I think the biggest question is has the length increased in the last 10 years (since the 460 cc head has been constant)?  As you say, maybe the tour player height has changed in the last 10 years and that explains everything.  But most people don't say that.  They say pros = 44.5.  But it looks like the pros average length has increased in recent years.

And i gave you the explanation for where that number comes form.....

If that still represent the average for what players who plays "standard irons" plays...i dont know, and i dont bother to find out either, since its quite a job to do that who includes conversions of each OEMs measure standard to a common standard. (45 and 45 might be 4/8" as difference)

That alone makes it all so complicated, even i need to find my notes and do the math, and most of you out there dont even know how each OEMs measure standards is, so you will fall short on that, but if you really want to do this to settle this debate with a number....feel free to do so, and keep us updated when you have the answer

Here is how each OEM measure TODAY, meaning WE DONT KNOW how they measured 45.00" 10 years ago,(or maybe only 3 yr ago if they changed lately) so what we are up to really would take some time and effort to find the answer to

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Titleist_PT23]

17 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

And i gave you the explanation for where that number comes form.....

If that still represent the average for what players who plays "standard irons" plays...i dont know, and i dont bother to find out either, since its quite a job to do that who includes conversions of each OEMs measure standard to a common standard. (45 and 45 might be 4/8" as difference)

That alone makes it all so complicated, even i need to find my notes and do the math, and most of you out there dont even know how each OEMs measure standards is, so you will fall short on that, but if you really want to do this to settle this debate with a number....feel free to do so, and keep us updated when you have the answer

Here is how each OEM measure TODAY, meaning WE DONT KNOW how they measured 45.00" 10 years ago,(or maybe only 3 yr ago if they changed lately) so what we are up to really would take some time and effort to find the answer to

 

OK, thanks.  I'm still not sure if the change from 44.5 to whatever it is today (I'm not just looking at why DJ's driver is 45.75) is a) many players are playing longer irons/physical build, b) change in OEM measurements, or c) actual increase in playing length (measured apples-to-apples).  I understand the difficulty uncovering everything so we can probably stop (thanks again).

 

But Adam Scott is also interesting.  In the last 5 years or so he's gone ~44.75-45.00 to 46.00.  I don't think he's taller than before (or maybe he shortened his arms?)  All Titleist clubs.  And yes, only 1 person so hard to extrapolate to everyone.  Regards.