Frankel Golf Academy - Golf’s one motion

[NoTalentLefty]

Just got the package from The Academy. Very much similar to Manuel de la Torre without the arms mentioned. Strictly hands swing the club head. Claim to be the only one teaching the Ernest Jones Way. Apparently MDLT by changing the hands to the arms  on the downswing deviated from Jones . Not going to get into a who’s better or method but does anyone adhere to Jones teachings unaltered? Anyone out here? And is there that much of difference that anyone would notice?

[Nels55]

I have the book, video and weight on a string also.  I have tried very earnestly to apply Earnest Jones, Frankel Brothers, deLaTorre and Ron Sisson during the past.  I really tried hard on all of them but pretty much got the same result which was that I got worse and worse the longer I worked at it...  I don't know maybe I just naturally have bad mechanics or possibly the poor mechanics that I had trained into my swing in the past kept me from succeeding.  

 

LOL or maybe I never got out of the valley of despair:

 

I can tell you that I am currently working on some better swing mechanics and any time I try to just swing the clubhead now I get my old poor mechanics back instantly.  Possibly in a year or two things will be different, don't know.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Nels55
typo

[tm3]

I have the Jones book and I also once saw a VHS tape made by Frankel golf.  One of the reasons I was drawn to the Jones book was Jim Flick's admonition that to be successful at golf one needs to develop a feel for the clubhead, and from that to develop the action of swinging the club before trying to modify said action with a focus on tweaking various body parts.

 

Although the book was interesting, I never really got anywhere with "swing the clubhead."  My opinion of the Frankel instructional tape was that they just kept repeating the mantra without any additional information.  I also once saw some instructional material advocating that one should swing not the clubhead, but the handle.

 

When I came across the MDLT option I at first thought it was just another sales pitch for the same concept ...... and I was wrong.  The distinction that MDLT makes between swinging the clubhead vs swinging the entire club towards the target using the arms made a world of difference, for me.

 

I believe that MDLT explains the difference by saying that swing the clubhead leads to the student trying to use the shaft like a lever, which does not work, and in retrospect I think that explains where I went wrong with it.

[b_f_c_99]

I think most people struggle with any system or method that goes contrary to their athletic instinct and how they hold the club.

 

for example if you hold the club in a strong fashion, short thumb on trail hand and the grip more in the base of the fingers your better be swinging it more like Duval or DJ.  If you do the MDLT thing from that you will hook it off the planet.

[NoTalentLefty]

35 minutes ago, tm3 said:

I have the Jones book and I also once saw a VHS tape made by Frankel golf.  One of the reasons I was drawn to the Jones book was Jim Flick's admonition that to be successful at golf one needs to develop a feel for the clubhead, and from that to develop the action of swinging the club before trying to modify said action with a focus on tweaking various body parts.

 

Although the book was interesting, I never really got anywhere with "swing the clubhead."  My opinion of the Frankel instructional tape was that they just kept repeating the mantra without any additional information.  I also once saw some instructional material advocating that one should swing not the clubhead, but the handle.

 

When I came across the MDLT option I at first thought it was just another sales pitch for the same concept ...... and I was wrong.  The distinction that MDLT makes between swinging the clubhead vs swinging the entire club towards the target using the arms made a world of difference, for me.

 

I believe that MDLT explains the difference by saying that swing the clubhead leads to the student trying to use the shaft like a lever, which does not work, and in retrospect I think that explains where I went wrong with it.

I started with the MDLT but have started the Frankel DVD . I do not think the two are that far a part. The only thing is Arnie is a one thought where MDLT had a two swing thought , hands back / arms through. Both aren’t concern about much else and agree on most things about posture and setup specifically. Both are not really more than that. Easy but not easy 

[NoTalentLefty]

22 minutes ago, b_f_c_99 said:

I think most people struggle with any system or method that goes contrary to their athletic instinct and how they hold the club.

 

for example if you hold the club in a strong fashion, short thumb on trail hand and the grip more in the base of the fingers your better be swinging it more like Duval or DJ.  If you do the MDLT thing from that you will hook it off the planet.

I kind of agree with you. I have problems with using a strong grip that many instructors now use , like Malaska. Probably because of my age and how I was taught early on about a neutral grip. Changing the grip At 62 it ain’t going to happen. Tried off and on for years with nothing but pain in my hands. Malaska is a great instructor but not for me.

Edited August 27, 2021 by NoTalentLefty

[tm3]

27 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

I started with the MDLT but have started the Frankel DVD . I do not think the two are that far a part. The only thing is Arnie is a one thought where MDLT had a two swing thought , hands back / arms through. Both aren’t concern about much else and agree on most things about posture and setup specifically. Both are not really more than that. Easy but not easy 

 

It will be interesting to hear your feedback on the Frankel stuff once you have used it for a while.  I would bet that it is more refined than the old tape that I saw.

[b_f_c_99]

45 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

I kind of agree with you. I have problems with using a strong grip that many instructors now use , like Malaska. Probably because of my age and how I was taught early on about a neutral grip. Changing the grip At 62 it ain’t going to happen. Tried off and on for years with nothing but pain in my hands. Malaska is a great instructor but not for me.

 

I've spent a bunch of time really experimenting with different ways to hold the club and just sort of letting my body/athletic ability react to how I'm holding it rather than trying to force something to go along with it if that makes any sense.

 

What I have discovered it lots of ways to swing a club.  And lots of really different feelings that go along with them even though a casual observer would say it all looks the same.  Has any of them been better than others? Not really in the sense that I end up with a different miss and some of them are ALOT harder to do than others.

 

The most natural thing for me to do is hold it with what some call the 'butterfly' grip.  Left hand is a little strong I use a long thumb.  Right hand is a little weak,  I hold it in the middle of my fingers rather than down by the base of the fingers.  I can do this interlock, overlap or 10 finger, doesn't matter.

 

The swing itself is probably alot closer to MDLT or Larry Rinker.  Although I release it right from the start of the downswing.  I discovered that move 20+ years ago and spent MANY years looking for validation of what I was doing (at that time I was a 1 handicap with a 30 handicaps putting) Then long comes Monte  Scheinblum and his early cast thing and I was vindicated!

 

If I change my right hand and hold it a little stronger and down by the base of the fingers my instinct is to swing more like DJ.

[Precis1on]

Feel like if someone tells you to grip it differently, they A. Better be able to justify that your grip is either crossed over, misaligned, or fundamentally wrong, or B. show exactly why it doesn't match what you're doing in your swing (assuming the swing is correct). 

 

Grips, like many things in golf is just a matchup with the rest of your swing and a lot of personal preference.  

[b_f_c_99]

1 hour ago, Precis1on said:

Feel like if someone tells you to grip it differently, they A. Better be able to justify that your grip is either crossed over, misaligned, or fundamentally wrong, or B. show exactly why it doesn't match what you're doing in your swing (assuming the swing is correct). 

 

Grips, like many things in golf is just a matchup with the rest of your swing and a lot of personal preference.  

I completely agree.  The problem I see with the online golf instruction/tips isn't that most of them don't know what they are talking about.  In fact many of them I think are very good at showing and explaining different things.

The problems start with the person watching these things has no idea if what they are watching will matchup with what they do.   And the person doing the video has no idea either.

 

The person watching doesn't think for a second that their goofy grip is a problem, ect.

 

[tm3]

20 hours ago, b_f_c_99 said:

The problem I see with the online golf instruction/tips isn't that most of them don't know what they are talking about. 

 

 

I agree and would expand that opinion to include most of the golf "instructors" that I have encountered -- they simply don't know what they are talking about.  

 

There is so much contradiction it can't all be correct.

[NoTalentLefty]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:08 AM, tm3 said:

 

It will be interesting to hear your feedback on the Frankel stuff once you have used it for a while.  I would bet that it is more refined than the old tape that I saw.

No , not more refined is my guess out of seeing it. Arnie Frankel dances to his own beat . BUT he is teaching one thing about the golf swing and that is Swing the Cub Head.  To me it’s entertaining yet informative on his swing thoughts . My wife thinks it’s campy. 

 I’ve always elevated my game using one swing thought. When I was about 31 took my very first lessons. The guy corrected my setup . Had me put Club in middle , equal weight on feet. Then had me swing club much like the Frankel’s and Manuel de la Torre . My only thought after getting the club swing down , was the mantra, hit the back inside quadrant of the golf ball.  It worked. Had a friend taking lessons and the same guy started working with him in much more technical way. Never registered with me. We played that year together and my Hcp dropped severely like a 16 to a 6 . His dropped but was about a 12 to  9. So by not going beyond that little mantra , my improvement was greater. Drove my buddy nuts. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by NoTalentLefty

[brianmontgomery2000]

6 hours ago, tm3 said:

 

I agree and would expand that opinion to include most of the golf "instructors" that I have encountered -- they simply don't know what they are talking about.  

 

There is so much contradiction it can't all be correct.

 

The contradiction in instruction has always fascinated me.  Some thoughts are almost diametrically opposed!  

 

Over the years of being a relative swing geek (by all the folks I play/talk with versus say GolfWRX Intruction forum crew), I've come to believe a few things:

• it takes forever for real information to get disseminated to, let alone incorporated into, the average golf coach you see at the average range (e.g. D-plane/new ball flight laws)
• much of instruction seems to be recycled over and over over the years -- same thoughts, different words or same words!
• some coaches describe feels and want you to exaggerate things -- I am/was a pretty good athlete, so over exaggeration really was too much on most any instruction
• some coaches just want to put a Band-Aid on -- really, just stop you slicing, usually by teaching you to roll hell out of your arms to close the face

But the thing that I think really comes into play for contradiction in good, sound instruction has to do with peoples' different physiologies.  I've become a big fan of the Mike Adams, et al, Over/Under/Side golfer descriptions/thoughts.  It seems to explain why any thought about "covering" the ball is kryptonite to my swing since I'm more an "under" golfer.

 

To me, the idea that some instruction will work for you but not everyone based on physiology seems a logical explanation for why even "good" instruction is/seems contradictory.

Edited August 28, 2021 by brianmontgomery2000

[juststeve]

I think it is a mistake to try to tease ought subtle differences between what Manny taught and what Ernest Jones taught based on differences in terminology.  I believe there is no difference between how Manny wanted the club to move and what Ernest Jones wanted.  This is based on not having ever met Mr. Jones but having heard Manny talk about him.

 

In either method we hold the club in our hands and swing our hands with our arms.  One guy can describe that as swing with the hands and another as swinging with the arms.  No reason to argue with either.

 

The same is true of the distinction of swinging the whole club and swinging the club head.  Manny would have been happy to point out that if the club head is really swinging the rest of the club is swinging as well.    I don't think he believed that he had improved on Earnest Jones, but perhaps used different language designed to prevent his students from trying to add speed to the club head without speeding up the whole club.  

 

Both men were great teachers.

 

Steve

[NoTalentLefty]

Difference in Frankel and MDLT do exist in certain areas of the how to shots: Sand . Both leave the club in middle of body but what I see in Frankel’s approach is the ball and club are set the same as a normal shot. No two inch separation from the MDLT approach, which is what most sand bunker techniques teach. Both have square faces and shoulders parallel to the line. Feel more comfortable with Manny’s set up to the shot with the ball ahead. Seems like Frankel is saying play all shots no matter uphill or downhill or side hill in the the same for normal shots. Manny has you move the club back on a downhill lie for example. Again I do this as it seems the way I was taught. The grip: both advocate a neutral grip it seems but Manny seems more flexible with it. I like a neutral grip though. Vardon grip is the favored grip by both, Manny also okay with a ten finger, Frankel’s it’s the Vardon grip with all clubs in all situations putting and chipping. I’ve always gone to a reverse overlap for those types but will give it a try. Not sure what Manny said about putting and chipping grips. Can’t remember have to go to the book.  
  Overall Steve is right they both teach swing the club head like Ernest Jones. Manny still advocated this even when there is a deviation from ball position for specialty shots. 
  What I like about both ? Forget your body,  focus in on the hands swinging the club head. Everything else reacts . 
  

[Ronald Ross]

You do have to swing thats true but it is not correct to sweep the whole lot through, quoting 3 times Open Champion Henry Cotton. Kindly search for the no.2 secret of good golf and you will find what is the missing information in order to swing and strike the ball well consistently (as consistently as one can do.)