Ball moved during search. Replace ball. Can I clean it?

[davep043]

As I read it, 14.1 (including the permissions for cleaning in 14.1c) applies to "deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest".  Rule 7.4 never mentions "lifting", only says that the ball which has been accidentally moved during a search must be replaced on its original spot.  Since the ball isn't "lifted" as defined in 14.1, the permissions to clean it under 14.1 don't apply.  I'd say you are not allowed to clean that ball.  Note that there is no permission under 7.4 to substitute another ball, which typically accompanies the opportunity to clean the ball.

 

5 hours ago, Augster said:

Not only do you get ball in hand and a perfect lie

For an honest golfer, who really does replace the ball in its original location, there's no guarantee of a perfect lie.  

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, davep043 said:

As I read it, 14.1 (including the permissions for cleaning in 14.1c) applies to "deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest".  Rule 7.4 never mentions "lifting", only says that the ball which has been accidentally moved during a search must be replaced on its original spot.  Since the ball isn't "lifted" as defined in 14.1, the permissions to clean it under 14.1 don't apply.  I'd say you are not allowed to clean that ball.  Note that there is no permission under 7.4 to substitute another ball, which typically accompanies the opportunity to clean the ball.

 

Good point. Furthermore that Rule 14.1 says:

 

'This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot.'

 

Another interesting point is that once you accidentally move your ball in play other than in searching or identifying you get a one stroke penalty (excl. putting green) and under that penalty you may clean your ball. The outcome would be the same if you lifted your ball without permission in order to clean it, again 1 PS.

 

Sounds more and more like circumventing a Rule if cleaning is allowed in the case at hand.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[antip]

A moved ball may be cleaned. The specific limitations on cleaning a ball apply to a ball that is in it's correct location and is being lifted for one of the named purposes in Rule 14.1c.

That is, Mr B's original response to the OP is incorrect.

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, antip said:

A moved ball may be cleaned. The specific limitations on cleaning a ball apply to a ball that is in it's correct location and is being lifted for one of the named purposes in Rule 14.1c.

That is, Mr B's original response to the OP is incorrect.

 

So, in the future one needs to be a bit careless when searching or identifying one's ball as a careless player gets to clean their ball...

 

This sounds more and more bizarre to me. If I try to identify my ball and in the process accidentally move it I am allowed to clean it and get no penalty. Is this how the Rule is supposed to be..?

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[antip]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, in the future one needs to be a bit careless when searching or identifying one's ball as a careless player gets to clean their ball...

If you have marked and lifted to identify, you are breached if you carelessly clean more than needed.

But a ball that is not in the correct position and is being put into the correct position may be cleaned.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, antip said:

If you have marked and lifted to identify, you are breached if you carelessly clean more than needed.

But a ball that is not in the correct position and is being put into the correct position may be cleaned.

 

If I mark my ball for lifting and identifying and in the process before having lifted my ball I accidentally move it away from it's original location I can clean it completely. That is what you say the Rule says. I don't like the idea at all.

[antip]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

If I mark my ball for lifting and identifying and in the process before having lifted my ball I accidentally move it away from it's original location I can clean it completely. That is what you say the Rule says. I don't like the idea at all.

Sorry you don't like it.🙂

 

But it is actually the USGA that said it. The rules only reference cleaning in the context of cleaning a lifted ball, quite a different situation.

 

 

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

Surely that is why 14.1c exists. 

The player has lifted his ball from the rough as 14.1 c specifies.

 

When you lift your ball from anywhere else it may always be cleaned except ..........

The ball has been accidentally moved in the course of a search.  It then has to be replaced. I was thinking that picking  your ball up in that situation isn't "lifting" it in the rules sense, but on a further check on Rule 14,  I've changed my mind, but there is nonetheless nothing said about not being allowed to clean it in that situation.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Colin L

[Augster]

Thanks for the discussion all. I’m starting to grasp this gnarly situation. Though, I admit, I’m not all the way there. 
 

A ball accidentally moved by the player (not on the putting green) is a 1SP and you can clean it before replacing. That’s simple. You’re paying a penalty. 
 

A ball moved by an outside agency can be cleaned, without penalty, and then replaced on the estimated spot. 
 

A ball accidentally moved by the player while searching can be cleaned before being replaced, without penalty. 
 

Seems odd, but kind of in line with the other two situations. 

[Newby]

4 hours ago, antip said:

Sorry you don't like it.🙂

 

But it is actually the USGA that said it. The rules only reference cleaning in the context of cleaning a lifted ball, quite a different situation.

 

 

Where and when?

[Newby]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

As I read it, 14.1 (including the permissions for cleaning in 14.1c) applies to "deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest".  Rule 7.4 never mentions "lifting", only says that the ball which has been accidentally moved during a search must be replaced on its original spot.  Since the ball isn't "lifted" as defined in 14.1, the permissions to clean it under 14.1 don't apply.  I'd say you are not allowed to clean that ball.  Note that there is no permission under 7.4 to substitute another ball, which typically accompanies the opportunity to clean the ball.

 

For an honest golfer, who really does replace the ball in its original location, there's no guarantee of a perfect lie.  

Where does it mention 'deliberate'. It mentions 'moved' without distinguishing between accidental or deliberate. 14.1 does not define 'lifted'.

 

The rule applies to: 

• When your ball has been lifted or moved and is to be replaced, the same ball must be set down on its original spot.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

Where does it mention 'deliberate'. It mentions 'moved' without distinguishing between accidental or deliberate. 14.1 does not define 'lifted'.

 

The rule applies to: 

• When your ball has been lifted or moved and is to be replaced, the same ball must be set down on its original spot.

 

Text immediately after 14.1 :

 

This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot.

[davep043]

16 minutes ago, Newby said:

Where does it mention 'deliberate'. It mentions 'moved' without distinguishing between accidental or deliberate. 14.1 does not define 'lifted'.

 

The rule applies to: 

• When your ball has been lifted or moved and is to be replaced, the same ball must be set down on its original spot.

As @Mr. Bean says, it is the very first sentence of the Rule.  The Purpose Statement, while informative, is not the Rule.

[Newby]

43 minutes ago, davep043 said:

As @Mr. Bean says, it is the very first sentence of the Rule.  The Purpose Statement, while informative, is not the Rule.

Not quite.

'Lifting' includes picking up the ball by hand ... causing it to move from its spot.

Spot simply means where it was before the player picked it up. It doesn't say its original spot.

Significantly, it then goes on to say specifically "must be set down on its original spot".

IMO that wording is important.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Newby

[davep043]

30 minutes ago, Newby said:

Not quite.

'Lifting' includes picking up the ball by hand ... causing it to move from its spot.

Spot simply means where it was before the player picked it up. It doesn't say its original spot.

Significantly, it then goes on to say specifically "must be set down on its original spot".

IMO that wording is important.

 

Following that, 14.1a requires the player to mark the original spot, before lifting a ball which must be replaced on its original spot.  As 7.4 does require the ball to be replaced on its original spot, does the marking requirement still apply?  And if 14.1a does NOT apply, why would 14.1c apply?  It seems to me unlikely that only a part of 14.1 applies.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

 

Please ignore

Edited April 13, 2022 by Newby

[antip]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Where and when?

Multiple locations: rulings, oral discussions and facebook page offerings.

And note the written rules identify the very explicit (limited) situations in which a ball may not be cleaned.

[Newby]

7 hours ago, antip said:

Multiple locations: rulings, oral discussions and facebook page offerings.

And note the written rules identify the very explicit (limited) situations in which a ball may not be cleaned.

So this has been ruled on in facebook? Which would imply there were some differing views before the USGA ruled.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, antip said:

And note the written rules identify the very explicit (limited) situations in which a ball may not be cleaned.

 

So to wrap this up:

 

When I mark my ball and lift it from that particular (original) spot to identify it I may only clean it as much is necessary to identify it.

 

But if I accidentally move that ball in the process of marking the spot I may clean the entire ball as I have to replace it.

 

Correct?

[Newby]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So to wrap this up:

 

When I mark my ball and lift it from that particular (original) spot to identify it I may only clean it as much is necessary to identify it.

 

But if I accidentally move that ball in the process of marking the spot I may clean the entire ball as I have to replace it.

 

Correct?

And an extra point:

If anyone else accidentally (or otherwise) moves that ball I may clean the entire ball as I have to replace it.

[antip]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So to wrap this up:

 

When I mark my ball and lift it from that particular (original) spot to identify it I may only clean it as much is necessary to identify it.

 

But if I accidentally move that ball in the process of marking the spot I may clean the entire ball as I have to replace it.

 

Correct?

You may clean it because no rule says that you cannot and it is not one of the named circumstances in which you cannot clean the ball.

[antip]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

So this has been ruled on in facebook? Which would imply there were some differing views before the USGA ruled.

Why would it imply anything? People can ask questions and have them answered. The USGA does not limit their answers to questions that have not been answered by someone else.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

You may clean it because no rule says that you cannot and it is not one of the named circumstances in which you cannot clean the ball.

 

That seems to be the case. Nevertheless, a clumsy player gets a free cleaning while a handy player does not...

[sui generis]

5 hours ago, antip said:

You may clean it because no rule says that you cannot and it is not one of the named circumstances in which you cannot clean the ball.

 

While we accept that answer, it doesn't mean that we like it. 😉

[Newby]

5 hours ago, antip said:

Why would it imply anything? People can ask questions and have them answered. The USGA does not limit their answers to questions that have not been answered by someone else.

I don't subscribe to facebook but I just had the impression that it isn't a one-way traffic medium. I haven't seen anything the USGA may have posted there or have said in oral discussions.

[Mr. Bean]

 

39 minutes ago, sui generis said:

While we accept that answer, it doesn't mean that we like it. 😉

 

On 4/13/2022 at 4:13 PM, antip said:

Sorry you don't like it.🙂

[sui generis]

36 minutes ago, Newby said:

I don't subscribe to facebook but I just had the impression that it isn't a one-way traffic medium. I haven't seen anything the USGA may have posted there or have said in oral discussions.

 

Seems the USGA will let a question rattle around there for a bit in hopes that someone will post a good answer. If that doesn't happen or if a correct answer gets lost in the chaff, the USGA, often David Staebler himself, will post a polite reply. 🙂

[davep043]

20 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Seems the USGA will let a question rattle around there for a bit in hopes that someone will post a good answer. If that doesn't happen or if a correct answer gets lost in the chaff, the USGA, often David Staebler himself, will post a polite reply. 🙂

I have seen that happen as well.  I did a quick search of the  USGA Rules Facebook group, and didn't find any threads related to this specific topic.

[Newby]

10 hours ago, davep043 said:

I did a quick search of the  USGA Rules Facebook group, and didn't find any threads related to this specific topic.

Interesting

Edited April 15, 2022 by Newby

[antip]

For sure, the search function on the facebook page is hit and miss, with a disproportionate weighting on miss. I know that the USGA has some issues with the platform.

 

I have direct written rulings on which my earlier posts are based.

 

And here is a facebook q/a for a related (not precisely the same) question:

 

Chris Gonzaba 26 January 2022

9.6 BALL MOVED BY OUTSIDE INFLUENCE – CAN BALL BE CLEANED?

Stroke play. Player A and Player B are fellow competitors.

On the par 4 6th hole, both players hit their tee shots right of the fairway into a muddy area.

As they approach the area, Player B lifts a ball without marking to identify it. Player A sees this, but she didn’t have an opportunity to object before it happens.

Player A tells Player B “I’m pretty sure that’s my ball”.

Player B says “Oh sorry”, and hands the ball to player A without looking at it.

Player A immediately verifies that it is her ball when she sees her mark. She then grabs a towel and cleans all of the remaining mud off the ball. She replaces the ball properly on the spot that Player B lifted it from and then plays the ball.

Any penalty for either player?

USGA RESPONSE

Rule 7.3 applies to player B who lifted the ball for identification. Rule 9.6 applies to player A whose ball was moved by an outside influence. When a ball is lifted because it was moved by an outside influence the player is allowed to clean it.