Lesson has helped with OTT but now I'm massively struggling with contact and duck hooks

[Luckydutch]

So a bit of background: I've been playing for about a year now and really working hard to improve. However, despite my efforts my progress has completely stalled over the past 6 months due to not being able to consistently cure a tendency to go over-the-top in the downswing. As a result I've been stuck at about 30 HC for 6 months, even though my chipping and putting has improved a fair bit, my scores haven't really.

 

Fast-forward to two weeks ago and I had a great lesson where he had me setting up extremely closed to my target line for force me to feel a swing path that was more from the inside.

 

 

Unfortunately the lesson ended before I was able to properly incorporate it into my swing and I don't have another lesson scheduled for a month.

 

When I went to practice this concept at the range, I was pleased to see on video that for the first time ever I was achieving a swing path that was a bit more from the inside. I'm starting to think that I might have been reverse pivoting a bit before, causing the OTT, and by feeling the swing wrap more around me, it's easier to return the club on that same plane on the way down.

 

This all sounds great but my issue is the actual shots I've been hitting have been HORRIBLE. I've hit 180 range balls over the course of this week (taking my time to practice properly, not just smash them out) and it genuinely feels like maybe 20 of them were playable shots. Often the low-point of my swing was behind and inside the ball so I was catching the mat and thinning/duck-hooking the ball. Generally, swinging more from the inside made me feel like I was hitting up on the ball rather than down on it.

 

Here are some examples:

 

 

 

 

Towards the end of the last session I decided to try and focus on hitting down on the ball more and I did hit a few nice shots (like the one below) but I could see from the videos a slight return of that strong right shoulder move that I associate with me going OTT.

 

 

 

Can anyone tell me why I'm suffering with such poor contact when trying to swing more from the inside? I know I have a host of other faults too but I'm really curious to get my head around this swing plane issue so I can make sure that I am practicing the right thing.

 

Any help would be much appreciated!

 

[Valtiel]

You have a massive difference in your backswing vs. downswing plane in the opposite sense that you want.



You're taking the club back and getting it way too flat and around your body leading to a position that is stuck behind you which forces you to go over the top and steepen drastically to get the club back out in front of you. This steepening results in severe low point control issues because without intervention/compensation it would bury into the ground, and this is compounded by the fact that you are actually sequencing and firing your hips at the correct time. It's a classic example of when doing one major element correctly actually exacerbates the one you're doing wrong as most people coming down this steep stall their rotation and stand up in an attempt to control low point. You aren't doing that, so you're instead slamming the club into the ground.



When I refer to flat/stuck, it's in regards to both swing plane going back and where your hands end up at the top of the backswing. Rory is known for having one of the deeper backswing positions on tour (mostly with the longer clubs). "Deeper" refers to how far the club is behind you, usually measured by the distance from your hands to your trail shoulder and from the handle straight down to the ground. We can see Rory's handle is basically over his right heel and his hands are a moderate distance from his trail shoulder. You will rarely see a pro any further back than this with a mid iron, but on your side the handle is almost half the length of your foot behind your heel and your hands are a significant distance from your trail shoulder. This is no man's land, you can't really make a normal swing from here so you're forced to come over the top and steepen to get unstuck. The solution is that you can't swing this flat and get this stuck going back, you have to get the club up and more vertical going back. With regards to these:
 

Quote

"...and by feeling the swing wrap more around me, it's easier to return the club on that same plane on the way down..."

"Towards the end of the last session I decided to try and focus on hitting down on the ball more"

You don't want either of these thoughts/feels. You aren't returning the club on a similar plane at all going down and you're already far too steep, so neither of these ideas are going to help you. You want to feel far less of the club wrapping around you because that is the exact feel that is getting you stuck, you want to feel the club working straight back and up in the backswing compared to what you're doing now. This will likely shorten your backswing as well which is good IMO because it's also overly long at the moment for a mid iron. If your teacher hasn't addressed these swing plane issues  and is instead simply lining you up super closed then they are slapping bandaids on your problem and I would consider looking elsewhere.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Valtiel

[Luckydutch]

8 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

 

Thank you so much for the detailed response there! 

 

I can totally see the difference to Rory there and the logic behind what you're saying. The tricky bit for me is it seems to be partly in contrast to what my instructor has been trying to get me to do, or at least, my understanding of what he's been getting me to do.

 

He explained the setting up closed drill as helping me to feel like my swing is flatter and more on my right side and less chopping diagonally down on the ball, which is my prevailing fault.

 

It might be that I've just taken it too far though? In the lesson we were hitting sort of 3/4 swings with the ball teed-up and the aim was to finish with my arms straight and pointing at the target or right of it. Revisiting these videos having read your comment, perhaps I am taking the club too far back in the backswing?

 

Interestingly, I did warm-up to full swings with some gentle controlled shots and the swing plane was pretty nice:

 

 

 

 

The issue was there's no speed/power there so that was a 130 8 iron vs my normal 150+.

 

When I tried to do the same motion but with more power, the OTT and casting came storming back and I started hitting vicious pulls:

 

 

 

 

After that I think I stopped and went back to the drill for a while to try regain that feeling of swinging more on the inside.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

@Valtiel has your back. You have the classic shallow to steep instead of steep to shallow.

 

 It stems from believing that the arms swing around the body instead of out and in front of the body. 
 

You never recover from this position.

 

Your hands are waaaay too deep - they need to be in front of the body on or around the red line, and the club needs to be pointing at or inside the ball. 
 

The only way to get back to the ball from this deep and shallow is to come OTT, so well done for doing that. 

 

Also, you have to be realistic with your goals. It’s going to take months to fix this if you practice a lot and do loads of mirror work at home without a ball. If you expect to see progress after a bucket or two you’re in dream land. 
 

The most important thing is to be hitting the correct areas early in the swing so you don’t need to compensate later. Get the backswing on plane and then all you need is a correct transition. That’s the swing. 
 

The backswing is essentially over at left arm parallel. Golf is easy if you make it so.

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by TheDeanAbides

[Luckydutch]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

@Valtiel has your back. You have the classic shallow to steep instead of steep to shallow.

 

 It stems from believing that the arms swing around the body instead of out and in front of the body. 
 

You never recover from this position.

 

Your hands are waaaay too deep - they need to be in front of the body on or around the red line, and the club needs to be pointing at our inside the ball. 
 

The only way to get back to the ball from this deep and shallow is to come OTT, so well done for doing that. 

 

Also, you have to be realistic with your goals. It’s going to take months to fix this if you practice a lot and do loads of mirror work at home without a ball. If you expect to see progress after a bucket or two you’re in dream land. 
 

The most important thing is to be hitting the correct areas early in the swing so you don’t need to compensate later. Get the backswing on plane and then all you need is a correct transition. That’s the swing. 
 

The backswing is essentially over at left arm parallel. Golf is easy if you make it so.

 

 

 

I see what you're saying there and I've read lots before about how OTT is caused by having an inside takeaway or not going steep enough in the backswing but when I've tried a steeper plane it's made things worse, not better.

 

Here's an example from a few months ago when I was toying around with a steeper/less-deep backswing and as you can see, the OTT is very severe. So severe that I was hitting divots so deep that I actually tore some cartilage in my wrist!

 

 

 

 

 

That was however, before I made my more recent realization about my reverse pivot. 

 

Perhaps I need to experiment with the torso rotation that is more around my spine (as per the videos at the top) to avoid the reverse pivot but then a steeper raising of the arms independently of the body to avoid getting two deep?

 

Did you see my response to the other poster there with the video of me hitting a gentle shot? That one seemed to be beautifully on plane but I should could not replicate that same path with any reasonable amount of speed.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, Luckydutch said:

 

 

I see what you're saying there and I've read lots before about how OTT is caused by having an inside takeaway or not going steep enough in the backswing but when I've tried a steeper plane it's made things worse, not better.

 

Here's an example from a few months ago when I was toying around with a steeper/less-deep backswing and as you can see, the OTT is very severe. So severe that I was hitting divots so deep that I actually tore some cartilage in my wrist!

 

 

 

 

 

That was however, before I made my more recent realization about my reverse pivot. 

 

Perhaps I need to experiment with the torso rotation that is more around my spine (as per the videos at the top) to avoid the reverse pivot but then a steeper raising of the arms independently of the body to avoid getting two deep?

 

Did you see my response to the other poster there with the video of me hitting a gentle shot? That one seemed to be beautifully on plane but I should could not replicate that same path with any reasonable amount of speed.

The problem here is that you’re still too deep and shallow but you’re also throwing your right hip forward at the ball. As is often the case with high caps (and low ones) what you think you’re doing isn’t what you’re doing.

Edited June 17, 2022 by TheDeanAbides

[TheDeanAbides]

The slow swing is still full of flaws - actually more than the full speed one - but you’ve shallowed. However the shallowing is contrived which is why it doesn’t happen at full speed.

[Valtiel]

On 6/17/2022 at 12:52 AM, Luckydutch said:

Revisiting these videos having read your comment, perhaps I am taking the club too far back in the backswing?

 

Interestingly, I did warm-up to full swings with some gentle controlled shots and the swing plane was pretty nice.

When I tried to do the same motion but with more power, the OTT and casting came storming back and I started hitting

 

 

On 6/17/2022 at 3:08 AM, Luckydutch said:

 

I see what you're saying there and I've read lots before about how OTT is caused by having an inside takeaway or not going steep enough in the backswing but when I've tried a steeper plane it's made things worse, not better.

 

Here's an example from a few months ago when I was toying around with a steeper/less-deep backswing and as you can see, the OTT is very severe. So severe that I was hitting divots so deep that I actually tore some cartilage in my wrist!

 

 

@TheDeanAbides is right in pointing something that I think is the thing to focus on here. These varying videos you've provided all have one massive thing in common; you think you're doing things that you're not and all of these swings have exactly the same thing happening halfway back which is a massive flattening of your plane leading to the club getting stuck way behind you. To highlight specifically the video where you said you tried a more upright/steep swing i've grabbed a highlight of Ben Hoag from the US Open highlights who has a the kind of steeper backswing we're trying to steer you towards:



This is important, because a hurdle you're going to need to get over is being able to what recognize what is and is not happening with these swings. To look at this swing of yours here and think this was steeper/upright is to not yet grasp what steep and shallow actually look like. By the second frame of this gif you are massively inside and flat leading to a similar stuck position as we've talked about above. You're doing exactly the same thing but worse in those slower swing videos with you trying to hinge your wrists up where you thought your plane looked "pretty nice". It wasn't unfortunately, and Dean is right in saying that the only reason they worked was because you moved slowly and made a much shorter swing. The severe flattening move you did in those swings wouldn't hold up to any speed. Compare this to Hoag on the right and notice how the club works basically straight up in the air. This is what it means to keep it in front of you and NOT get stuck. His hands are right on top of this right shoulder and the butt of the club is just slightly behind the balls of his feet. Your "steeper" swing has the same result as the one we broke down before with your hands well behind your right shoulder and the butt of the club behind your feet. I actually stopped your gif short of your full backswing for the sake of matching up to Hoag because you actually continue all the way to parallel and get more stuck in the process.

The bottom line is you've gotten stuck in a movement pattern that is permeating everything you're trying to do. You haven't been playing long as you've mentioned so thankfully this isn't some deeply ingrained movement from childhood little league or something like that, but you're going to have to get your head around NOT moving like this, if for no other reason than to gain the valuable skill of learning how to move differently, and mainly because what you're stuck in is hurting you. I genuinely want to see you make some swings that are *actually* steep going back. Try to feel like you're bringing your hands up over the top of your head, because I can almost promise that in attempting to do this you'll probably end up in a much more conventional position despite it likely feeling weird. Just remember that you've only been at this a short time, so everything SHOULD be feeling weird. 😄

Edited June 22, 2022 by Valtiel

[TheDeanAbides]

5 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

@TheDeanAbides is right in pointing something that I think is the thing to focus on here. These varying videos you've provided all have one massive thing in common; you think you're doing things that you're not and all of these swings have exactly the same thing happening halfway back which is a massive flattening of your plane leading to the club getting stuck way behind you. To highlight specifically the video where you said you tried a more upright/steep swing i've grabbed a highlight of Ben Hoag from the US Open highlights who has a the kind of steeper backswing we're trying to steer you towards:



This is important, because a hurdle you're going to need to get over is being able to what recognize what is and is not happening with these swings. To look at this swing of yours here and think this was steeper/upright is to not yet grasp what steep and shallow actually look like. By the second frame of this gif you are massively inside and flat leading to a similar stuck position as we've talked about above. You're doing exactly the same thing but worse in those slowing swing videos where you thought your plane looked "pretty nice". It wasn't unfortunately and Dean is right in saying that the only reason they worked was because you moved slowly and made a much shorter swing. Compare this to Hoag on the right and notice how the club works basically straight up in the air. This is what it means to keep it in front of you and NOT get stuck. His hands are right on top of this right shoulder and the butt of the club is just slightly behind the balls of his feet. Your "steeper" swing has the same result as the one we broke down before with your hands will behind your right shoulder and the butt of the club behind your feet. I actually stopped your gif short of your full backswing for the sake of matching up to Hoag because you actually continue all the way to parallel and get more stuck on the process.

The bottom line is you've gotten stuck in a movement pattern that is permeating everything you're trying to do. You haven't been playing long as you've mentioned so thankfully this isn't some deeply ingrained movement from childhood little league or something like that, but you're going to have to get your head around NOT moving like this, if for no other reason than to gain the valuable skill of learning how to move differently, and mainly because what you're stuck in is hurting you. I genuinely want to see you make some swings that are *actually* steep going back. Try to feel like you're bringing your hands up over the top of your head, because I can almost promise that in attempting to do this you'll probably in a much more conventional position despite it likely feeling weird. Just remember that you've only been at this a short time, so everything SHOULD be feeling weird. 😄

100% this. Definitely try to overdo it to such an extent that it’s comical and then find the middle ground.

 

 OP, remember that this is a game, so you have to be willing to screw up and experiment outside of your (un)comfort zone. 

[Rosco1216]

All of this probably very difficult to process and apply for 30 HC who has only been playing a year.  You’re engrained in a pattern that everyone has been talking about. 
 

My suggestion is start from basic and go to YouTube and find videos of Steve Stricker’s wedge/pitch swing. One piece, down the line hand path on takeaway to left arm parallel, feeling the arms and hands stay in front of your torso with the feeling of no wrist hinge. Then keep connected and rotate the body through without trying to use your arms to generate speed. 

Start grooving this half swing motion with a mid-short iron and then start trying to increase speed keeping that same half swing length but with just more legs and body effort.  Essentially half swing, full speed punch style shots. 
 

Do this entirely for a couple range sessions, starting with mid iron then work into a long iron and a wedge. Engrain the feeling and motion for multiple range sessions to where you can consistently hit it solid and starts to “groove” before you even attempt to go into fuller swings. 

 

[Luckydutch]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

 

@TheDeanAbides is right in pointing something that I think is the thing to focus on here. These varying videos you've provided all have one massive thing in common; you think you're doing things that you're not and all of these swings have exactly the same thing happening halfway back which is a massive flattening of your plane leading to the club getting stuck way behind you. To highlight specifically the video where you said you tried a more upright/steep swing i've grabbed a highlight of Ben Hoag from the US Open highlights who has a the kind of steeper backswing we're trying to steer you towards:



This is important, because a hurdle you're going to need to get over is being able to what recognize what is and is not happening with these swings. To look at this swing of yours here and think this was steeper/upright is to not yet grasp what steep and shallow actually look like. By the second frame of this gif you are massively inside and flat leading to a similar stuck position as we've talked about above. You're doing exactly the same thing but worse in those slower swing videos with you trying to hinge your wrists up where you thought your plane looked "pretty nice". It wasn't unfortunately, and Dean is right in saying that the only reason they worked was because you moved slowly and made a much shorter swing. The server flattening move you did in those swings wouldn't hole up to any speed. Compare this to Hoag on the right and notice how the club works basically straight up in the air. This is what it means to keep it in front of you and NOT get stuck. His hands are right on top of this right shoulder and the butt of the club is just slightly behind the balls of his feet. Your "steeper" swing has the same result as the one we broke down before with your hands well behind your right shoulder and the butt of the club behind your feet. I actually stopped your gif short of your full backswing for the sake of matching up to Hoag because you actually continue all the way to parallel and get more stuck in the process.

The bottom line is you've gotten stuck in a movement pattern that is permeating everything you're trying to do. You haven't been playing long as you've mentioned so thankfully this isn't some deeply ingrained movement from childhood little league or something like that, but you're going to have to get your head around NOT moving like this, if for no other reason than to gain the valuable skill of learning how to move differently, and mainly because what you're stuck in is hurting you. I genuinely want to see you make some swings that are *actually* steep going back. Try to feel like you're bringing your hands up over the top of your head, because I can almost promise that in attempting to do this you'll probably end up in a much more conventional position despite it likely feeling weird. Just remember that you've only been at this a short time, so everything SHOULD be feeling weird. 😄

 

 

That side-by-side is quite helpful.

 

Seems like he really picks the club up with his arms and lets that right elbow collapse from about the half way point whilst I just keep my arms more in line with my body and keep rotating around further.

 

I did once try a grossly exaggerated steep swing but didn't stick with it because I found when I did it, I couldn't shallow out at all. I picked it up steep then delivered it down steep too:

 

 

As you can see, it wasn't wildly over the top as I didn't really steepen it much more in the downswing than the plane it was already on but I also didn't shallow it one bit so I ended up swinging across it out-to-in and hitting a high, weak fade with that horrible, cramped follow-through. It's not a perfect example as I still flatten it more in the backswing than the guy you showed me above but less so than other swings, perhaps.

 

I've always struggled with this notion of shallowing in the downswing because it feels like to shallow it and drop the club head behind me, I'm sending the club in the opposite direction to where my rotational momentum is wanting to drag it.

 

To shallow it, my left arm would need to rotate clockwise but then my forearms roll over each other counter-clockwise through impact to square the face so rolling it one way then back the other all in a split second downswing feels really strange and I can't seem to pull it off at any kind of speed.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Luckydutch

[TheDeanAbides]

16 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

 

That side-by-side is quite helpful.

 

Seems like he really picks the club up with his arms and lets that right elbow collapse from about the half way point whilst I just keep my arms more in line with my body and keep rotating around further.

 

I did once try a grossly exaggerated steep swing but didn't stick with it because I found when I did it, I couldn't shallow out at all. I picked it up steep then delivered it down steep too:

 

 

 

As you can see, it wasn't wildly over the top as I didn't really steepen it much more in the downswing than the plane it was already on but I also didn't shallow it one bit so I ended up swinging across it out-to-in and hitting a high, weak fade with that horrible, cramped follow-through. It's not a perfect example as I still flatten it more in the backswing than the guy you showed me above but less so than other swings, perhaps.

 

I've always struggled with this notion of shallowing in the downswing because it feels like to shallow it and drop the club head behind me, I'm sending the club in the opposite direction to where my rotational momentum is wanting to drag it.

 

To shallow it, my left arm would need to rotate clockwise but then my forearms roll over each other counter-clockwise through impact to square the face so rolling it one way then back the other all in a split second downswing feels really strange and I can't seem to pull it off at any kind of speed.

Apart from the fact that you have no wrist c0ck that’s the best backswing you’ve made. It isn’t even CLOSE to over exaggerated, but it will FEEL like it is compared to what you do normally. 
 

The reason you couldn’t hit the ball was because of your pivot. Your hips fire too quickly and you get out of sequence. 

[Luckydutch]

2 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Apart from the fact that you have no wrist c0ck that’s the best backswing you’ve made. It isn’t even CLOSE to over exaggerated, but it will FEEL like it is compared to what you do normally. 
 

The reason you couldn’t hit the ball was because of your pivot. Your hips fire too quickly and you get out of sequence. 

 

 

That's interesting, thanks.

 

And how do I 'shallow' then in this case? I just seem to bring it back down on the same plane or steeper, never more shallow. Literally never have I recorded myself shallowing if hitting a ball (as opposed to a practice swing).

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

 

That's interesting, thanks.

 

And how do I 'shallow' then in this case? I just seem to bring it back down on the same plane or steeper, never more shallow. Literally never have I recorded myself shallowing if hitting a ball (as opposed to a practice swing).

I would heartily recommend Monte’s No Turn Cast series on his Rebellion Golf website. It’s incredible content for virtually nothing, and there’s a big thread where people using it post and help each other. 

[Luckydutch]

@Valtiel @TheDeanAbides

 

By funny coincidence, I walk into my local Decathlon today to grab some new golf shorts and see they've setup this fancy robo golf machine and are trying to flog some (extortionately expensive) lessons on it. 

 

They gave me a quick trial and let me feel Tiger's and Rory's swings on the machine and I think I sort of felt what you are talking about. I can't say that the torso/shoulder plane felt any steeper than what I'm used to but two things really stood out to me:

1. I felt the right elbow being forced to buckle quite early in the backswing and the club get sort of 'picked-up' towards my shoulders rather than follow my body's rotation around - this felt really odd as it feels like the arms and body are working quite independently
2. The downswing felt way more 'tucked-in' than I am used to and I almost felt my upper body being dragged down towards the ball to really get over it and cover the ball

Are either of these two feelings correct or related to what you're right to describe to me?

[TheDeanAbides]

22 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

@Valtiel @TheDeanAbides

 

By funny coincidence, I walk into my local Decathlon today to grab some new golf shorts and see they've setup this fancy robo golf machine and are trying to flog some (extortionately expensive) lessons on it. 

 

They gave me a quick trial and let me feel Tiger's and Rory's swings on the machine and I think I sort of felt what you are talking about. I can't say that the torso/shoulder plane felt any steeper than what I'm used to but two things really stood out to me:

1. I felt the right elbow being forced to buckle quite early in the backswing and the club get sort of 'picked-up' towards my shoulders rather than follow my body's rotation around - this felt really odd as it feels like the arms and body are working quite independently
2. The downswing felt way more 'tucked-in' than I am used to and I almost felt my upper body being dragged down towards the ball to really get over it and cover the ball

Are either of these two feelings correct or related to what you're right to describe to me?

I’ve never seen those machines, but I’m wary that they can be useful for anything other than the arm swing. However, yes, the arms are going to feel like they’re working independently compared to what you’re used to, which is the feeling that they’re swinging around the body. 
 

Covering the ball is absolutely what impact feels like. 

[Luckydutch]

@Valtiel @TheDeanAbides @Rosco1216

 

Since you took the time to help me, I just wanted to follow-up and say a huge "Thank you" and share my progress. I honestly feel like I have progressed more in the last two weeks than the previous 6 months and two pieces from this thread feel key to that: bending the elbow in the backswing to keep the club more on-plane through to the top of the backswing and warming up with half-swings where I feel like the body turns and the arms just follow.

 

I'm finding it WAY easier to stay on plane with the better backswing. As long as I rotate on the right plane (keep reminding myself to rotate down, not just around), the arms just come along or the ride and stay nicely on-plane:

 

 

 

 

It's no quite as pretty when I put a ball down as I still get a little steeper than when I just do a practice swing. However, this below is the single best golf shot I have ever hit in my life. 184 yards, 1 degree draw with a 7 iron. That's a good 15 yards further than my previous best whilst also being amazingly straight. It wasn't just a one-off, either. Shot after shot with my irons were straight and long. Lovely compression sound on most of them too. Something I rarely heard previously.

 

 

 

 

 

I did experiment adding some extra width into the backswing and letting the arms disconnect from the body a little more. It was unfortunately a bit of a disaster, though. I sometimes observed some nice shallowing in the videos but I felt completely out of control and my contact was all over the place. Every shot was a different miss:

 

 

 

 

 

I'd like to revisit this again in the future perhaps with my pro but for now, I've gone back to keeping things a little more compact and focusing on grooving those two helpful feels of on-plane backswing and driving the downswing with body rotation.

 

Overall, I'm delighted with the progress. There's still a lot to work on, obviously, but I honestly feel like I could take 5-10 strokes off my handicap playing with nothing longer than my irons and just striking them like that.

 

The 5 wood is still a little problematic for me but I think part of the issue is just not having the same confidence in my setup position that I have with my irons. I'm never totally sure how far to stand from the ball, how bent over I should be for the longer shaft, how far forward in my stance it should be etc. Still, I'm consistently hitting shots that would stay in-bounds on the course which is a much better place than I was 2 weeks ago. I think I'm probably just leaving a lot of distance out there with poorly optimized contact. It's not going THAT much further than a pured 5 iron.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, thanks again for your suggestions! They were a big help!

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Luckydutch

[Valtiel]

36 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

@Valtiel @TheDeanAbides @Rosco1216

 

Since you took the time to help me, I just wanted to follow-up and say a huge "Thank you" and share my progress. I honestly feel like I have progressed more in the last two weeks than the previous 6 months and two pieces from this thread feel key to that: bending the elbow in the backswing to keep he club more on-plane through to the top of the backswing and warming up with half-swings where I feel like the body turns and the arms just follow.

 

I'm finding it WAY easier to stay on plane with the better backswing. As long as I rotate on the right plane (keep reminding myself to rotate down, not just around), the arms just come along or the ride and stay nicely on-plane:

 

 

 

 

 

It's no quite as pretty when I put a ball down as I still get a little steeper than when I just do a practice swing. However, this below is the single best golf shot I have ever hit in my life. 184 yards, 1 degree draw with a 7 iron. That's a good 15 yards further than my previous best whilst also being amazingly straight. It wasn't just a one-off, either. Shot after shot with my irons were straight and long. Lovely compression sound on most of them too. Something I rarely heard previously.

 

 

 

 

I did experiment adding some extra width into the backswing and letting the arms disconnect from the body a little more. It was unfortunately a bit of a disaster, though. I sometimes observed some nice shallowing in the videos but I felt completely out of control and my contact was all over the place. Every shot was a different miss:

 

 

 

I'd like to revisit this again in the future perhaps with my pro but for now, I've gone back to keeping things a little more compact and focusing on grooving those two helpful feels of on-plane backswing and driving the downswing with body rotation.

 

Overall, I'm delighted with the progress. There's still a lot to work on, obviously, but I honestly feel like I could take 5-10 strokes off my handicap playing with nothing longer than my irons and just striking them like that.

 

The 5 wood is still a little problematic for me but I think part of the issue is just not having the same confidence in my setup position that I have with my irons. I'm never totally sure how far to stand from the ball, how bent over I should be for the longer shaft, how far forward in my stance it should be etc. Still, I'm consistently hitting shots that would stay in-bounds on the course which is a much better place than I was 2 weeks ago. I think I'm probably just leaving a lot of distance out there with poorly optimized contact. It's not going THAT much further than a pured 5 iron.

 

 

 

Anyway, thanks again for your suggestions! They were a big help!

 

Thanks for the follow up, it definitely looks like you're squaring these up a bit better and obviously you're seeing the distance gains from that. Keep working on getting your hands working more up in the backswing though as i'd argue you've gone from very deep/stuck to moderately deep/stuck, but we're seeing how that inching out of no man's land is getting you into a territory you can compensate more consistently from. The goal is to remove as much as possible that needs to be compensated for with the right match ups, and your fairway wood video shows us a big reason for that. Your hips are QUICK. You're rotating them faster in slow motion than some folks on here do at full speed, lol. This might be worth reigning in a bit, but if you can naturally and consistently move at that speed that it places a VERY high premium on keeping yourself unstuck in your backswing. Quick hips will exacerbate an out of position backswing, especially one that is too deep/stuck. Let's look at Billy Horschel who i'd argue has similar quick hip speed and see where his hands go:



They work up in the backswing and stay very much out in front of him. Shorter backswings and/or higher hands tend to be better matchups for fast hips. Justin Thomas is another example. Compare their backswing positions to yours....



....and we can see you're deeper/more stuck and WAY longer. Like I said before you're inching into the territory where your compensations are starting to win the battle over bad positioning, but the more you can reign in the bad positions the less you have to compensate, and that only increases consistency and power. 
 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Valtiel

[Luckydutch]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Thanks for the follow up, it definitely looks like you're squaring these up a bit better and obviously you're seeing the distance gains from that. Keep working on getting your hands working more up in the backswing though as i'd argue you've gone from very deep/stuck to moderately deep/stuck, but we're seeing how that inching out of no man's land is getting you into a territory you can compensate more consistently from. The goal is to remove as much as possible that needs to be compensated for with the right match ups, and your fairway wood video shows us a big reason for that. Your hips are QUICK. You're rotating them faster in slow motion than some folks on here do at full speed, lol. This might be worth reigning in a bit, but if you can naturally and consistently move at that speed that it places a VERY high premium on keeping yourself unstuck in your backswing. Quick hips will exacerbate an out of position backswing, especially one that is too deep/stuck. Let's look at Billy Horschel who i'd argue has similar quick hip speed and see where his hands go:



They work up in the backswing and stay very much out in front of him. Shorter backswings and/or higher hands tend to be better matchups for fast hips. Justin Thomas is another example. Compare their backswing positions to yours....



....and we can see you're deeper/more stuck and WAY longer. Like I said before you're inching into the territory where your compensations are starting to win the battle over bad positioning, but the more you can reign in the bad positions the less you have to compensate, and that only increases consistency and power. 

 

 

I think you're bang-on there with those observations.

 

The challenge I have with trying to replicate that Horschel swing is I cannot for the life of me replicate this move here:

 

 

 

I would just swing on the plane from that top position and because it's quite steep, I'd come down too steep and out-to-in. Probably not too severely but I would anticipate a very high but weak fade from that start position.

 

Those clips of me trying to shallow wit the 5 wood show just how difficult I find that move. It throws everything out of whack when I attempt it.

 

It feels like maybe it's a fine balance for me. Too much depth and I get stuck. Too little depth and I'm starting from a position that's too over the line and will never get it back on-plane.

 

I'm also wondering whether I would profit from bending over a bit more from the pelvis? Particularly with the longer woods? When I'm more upright, it doesn't feel like there's a whole lot of space to get that right elbow working out in front of me and it's more prone to getting stuck behind my hips. Will bending over too much get the toe of the club too far up and cause the heel to dig into the turf at impact, though?

 

The hip speed is tricky to reign-in because I'm not really trying to fire them fast. I think it's just linked to my torso rotation. When I really try to turn the shoulders and torso fast to avoid getting too armsy, the hips seem to just go really fast with them.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Luckydutch

[TheDeanAbides]

9 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

 

I think you're bang-on there with those observations.

 

The challenge I have with trying to replicate that Horschel swing is I cannot for the life of me replicate this move here:

 

 

 

I would just swing on the plane from that top position and because it's quite steep, I'd come down too steep and out-to-in. Probably not too severely but I would anticipate a very high but weak fade from that start position.

 

Those clips of me trying to shallow wit the 5 wood show just how difficult I find that move. It throws everything out of whack when I attempt it.

 

It feels like maybe it's a fine balance for me. Too much depth and I get stuck. Too little depth and I'm starting from a position that's too over the line and will never get it back on-plane.

 

I'm also wondering whether I would profit from bending over a bit more from the pelvis? Particularly with the longer woods? When I'm more upright, it doesn't feel like there's a whole lot of space to get that right elbow working out in front of me and it's more prone to getting stuck behind my hips. Will bending over too much get the toe of the club too far up and cause the heel to dig into the turf at impact, though?

 

The hip speed is tricky to reign-in because I'm not really trying to fire them fast. I think it's just linked to my torso rotation. When I really try to turn the shoulders and torso fast to avoid getting too armsy, the hips seem to just go really fast with them.

 

 

You can’t transition because you’re too deep and flat still. Once you get up and in front better you’ll be able to work on keeping your shoulders and hips quieter in transition while you get your arms back down in front of you. 
 

Again, it’s baby steps to an effective swing. As one wise person here one wrote, “Two choices in golf. Improve slowly or not at all”.

[TheDeanAbides]

Also as Monte says all the time, the expected length of time it takes to make a change is inversely proportionate to the player’s handicap. 

[TheDeanAbides]

One thing that has to stop: you can’t diagnose your own problems because, frankly, you’re not good enough, so stop doing it. It’s the high capper path to hell. 
 

Most of the stuff you claimed are the reasons you can’t do it correctly is nonsense. I mean that with sincerity and no malice. 

[Luckydutch]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

You can’t transition because you’re too deep and flat still. Once you get up and in front better you’ll be able to work on keeping your shoulders and hips quieter in transition while you get your arms back down in front of you. 
 

Again, it’s baby steps to an effective swing. As one wise person here one wrote, “Two choices in golf. Improve slowly or not at all”.

 

I'll definitely have to keep trying to exaggerate that feeling more when I get to the range and feed back the results, thanks.

 

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Also as Monte says all the time, the expected length of time it takes to make a change is inversely proportionate to the player’s handicap. 

 

Don't tell me that! I want to break 90 before the end of the year. I'm convinced (/deluded) that it is possible. My most recent round (before the breakthrough I had at the range this week), I got round in just 29 putts and my general approach game and shot selection was on-point. I only scored 99, though because I took SIX penalties off the tee. 12 strokes added onto my score before I even start each hole. If those 6 penalties with woods were 6 irons that landed in the fairway or light rough, I would have been on for a low 90s score.

 

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

One thing that has to stop: you can’t diagnose your own problems because, frankly, you’re not good enough, so stop doing it. It’s the high capper path to hell. 
 

Most of the stuff you claimed are the reasons you can’t do it correctly is nonsense. I mean that with sincerity and no malice. 

 

Noted and agreed. I'm really only describing the feels and what I see in videos of myself when trying different things. I acknowledge that I lack the understanding to identify causality.