I think I figured something out in the downswing

[Kuuuch]

Since it’s been cold and it’s the time of the year I grind most on my swing I’ve been nerding out as of late on the golf swing. About 3 weeks ago I heard a highly recognized instructor say he thinks most folks would be better off videoing their swing from face on as opposed to dtl as the swing isn’t as complicated from this point of view. 
 

Shortly after I’m looking at swing videos of guys like tiger and Adam Scott. For the sake of this conversation, let’s put some stuff aside like leg work, bends, wrist conditions etc. 

 

2 things I noticed in the below pics that stood out to me 1) maintaining width in the downswing and 2) maintaining tilts - I included a pic of mac because him and Sergio are great examples of this and it’s easy to see what I’m referring to. 
 

 

So, I look at these videos, scroll IG which of course shows me a bunch of  golf instruction videos lol and I see Sean Foley commenting on a video Tom Kim’s swing because someone was calling him steep and he said he wishes folks would stop judging shallow/steep by looking at the shaft at left arm parallel in the downswing. 
 

Then Im at the range with a buddy of mine who’s on the korn ferry tour and he’s running through what his instructor has him working on which was maintaining width in the downswing (shallowing move) and maintaining tilts (steepening move). Both compliment each other well and if we’re talking “stock textbook swings” I think most would agree these are moves that would certainly be present. 

 

I started to think this is pretty dang simple, as opposed to working on complicated shallow moves etc why not just shoot for both of these moves to control my shaft pitch. I’m a good player but like most, I’ve been looking for an easier way to maintain where I like to see the club on the downswing. The issue I’ve had with the shallowing fad it’s easy to get too underneath and it’s hard to maintain. 
 

So for the past 3 weeks or so I’ve focused on 2 drills and only videoed from face on as a test to see where I end up from a DTL position. FF 3 weeks and my swing has never looked as good. 
 

1) swings with gravity fit. Pretty much impossible to overdo as you’re simply maintaining width by fighting the resistance of the bands. 
2) downhill lie swings. Again pretty hard to overdo, especially for someone like me who’s classic fault is to drop the right shoulder and tilt too much. 
 

SO I know that was a lot but I’m very interesting in you alls thoughts, is this an easier way to think about the downswing and swing plane? 

 

Again, I know there a multitude of other things that can influence things but assuming wrists, how the legs work and depth at the top of the backswing etc are pretty neutral and textbook, this seems like a much easier way to go about things no? Or or do you think it’s oversimplified and I’ve got too much time on my hands 🤣

Edited December 5, 2022 by Kuuuch

[ericz]

1 hour ago, Kuuuch said:

About 3 weeks ago I heard a highly recognized instructor say he thinks most folks would be better off videoing their swing from face on as opposed to dtl as the swing isn’t as complicated from this point of view. 
 

 

 

I think face on video removes the style from the swing. If you can get into the positions you posted from face on view, you're probably going to strike the ball well, and it may not matter if you shallow earlier or later as long as it's done in time to be in a good delivery position.

 

If you've simplified your understanding of the swing and it's working for you, that's awesome, keep doing it!

[airjammer]

8 hours ago, Kuuuch said:

Since it’s been cold and it’s the time of the year I grind most on my swing I’ve been nerding out as of late on the golf swing. About 3 weeks ago I heard a highly recognized instructor say he thinks most folks would be better off videoing their swing from face on as opposed to dtl as the swing isn’t as complicated from this point of view. 
 

Shortly after I’m looking at swing videos of guys like tiger and Adam Scott. For the sake of this conversation, let’s put some stuff aside like leg work, bends, wrist conditions etc. 

 

2 things I noticed in the below pics that stood out to me 1) maintaining width in the downswing and 2) maintaining tilts - I included a pic of mac because him and Sergio are great examples of this and it’s easy to see what I’m referring to. 
 

 

So, I look at these videos, scroll IG which of course shows me a bunch of  golf instruction videos lol and I see Sean Foley commenting on a video Tom Kim’s swing because someone was calling him steep and he said he wishes folks would stop judging shallow/steep by looking at the shaft at left arm parallel in the downswing. 
 

Then Im at the range with a buddy of mine who’s on the korn ferry tour and he’s running through what his instructor has him working on which was maintaining width in the downswing (shallowing move) and maintaining tilts (steepening move). Both compliment each other well and if we’re talking “stock textbook swings” I think most would agree these are moves that would certainly be present. 

 

I started to think this is pretty dang simple, as opposed to working on complicated shallow moves etc why not just shoot for both of these moves to control my shaft pitch. I’m a good player but like most, I’ve been looking for an easier way to maintain where I like to see the club on the downswing. The issue I’ve had with the shallowing fad it’s easy to get too underneath and it’s hard to maintain. 
 

So for the past 3 weeks or so I’ve focused on 2 drills and only videoed from face on as a test to see where I end up from a DTL position. FF 3 weeks and my swing has never looked as good. 
 

1) swings with gravity fit. Pretty much impossible to overdo as you’re simply maintaining width by fighting the resistance of the bands. 
2) downhill lie swings. Again pretty hard to overdo, especially for someone like me who’s classic fault is to drop the right shoulder and tilt too much. 
 

SO I know that was a lot but I’m very interesting in you alls thoughts, is this an easier way to think about the downswing and swing plane? 

 

Again, I know there a multitude of other things that can influence things but assuming wrists, how the legs work and depth at the top of the backswing etc are pretty neutral and textbook, this seems like a much easier way to go about things no? Or or do you think it’s oversimplified and I’ve got too much time on my hands 🤣

You still have to video down the line because someone could be way over the top or the clubhead could be behind their hands with their trail elbow in front of their hip.
 

Shauheen Nakhjavani posts about this a lot. 

[Kuuuch]

3 hours ago, airjammer said:

You still have to video down the line because someone could be way over the top or the clubhead could be behind their hands with their trail elbow in front of their hip.
 

Shauheen Nakhjavani posts about this a lot. 

Oh for sure. Totally agree. I know its not an end all be all. 

 

I do think most folks would benefit a lot more from FO filming though. So many faults can be spotted that are the cause of the issues people see from DTL. 

[Golfbeat]

Just to add the gravity fit so people know what it is.

 

 

 

[airjammer]

Here is the Mystical Mac with seve talking about this move. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Clw8yTRtbGD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Hilts1969]

One thing i have never seen mentioned on here(it must have at some point) is keeping tilts ie left shoulder down right still high but regaining flexion in the chest.

 

I had a point a few years back when I was obsessed with getting the elbow in front and having roughly level shoulders at P6. Doing it slowly without a ball piece of cake but put a ball there not happening.

 

I tried every move known to man and then I managed it after hours of trying. Not only did the right arm play nicely but at p6 the clubhead was covering my hands. I was always well inside before. The only problem was I hit balls a tad or a lot heavy so discarded it.

 

I'm pretty sure I wasn't aware of pressure on feet then ie recentre downhill move. Maybe that was the problem. 

 

Anyhow the move itself was moving the chest down but keeping the incline of your shoulders the same. Think moving it directly opposite of montes 1030 zipper away drill. A kind of counter balance. What reminded me of it was the first picture of tiger. He definitely has regained flexion in his chest and his sternum is pointing at the target line but a fair bit behind the ball. His sternum is over his right leg.

 

Maybe if you bend forward at this angle while moving everything target wards that solves the low point problem. The elbow can't move anywhere apart from back in front of your hip.

 

Maybe the feeling of back to target is just tilting forward with left tilt. 

[Hilts1969]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

Here is the Mystical Mac with seve talking about this move. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Clw8yTRtbGD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

To me that's handle dragging I could never get there without having to bail out

[llewol007]

Oh I thought we were on the same wavelength. I found out if I close both eyes, I make better contact. 😂😂😂😂

 

 

[Krt22]

My take away from those photos is how they close the gap between their right elbow and right side of the body/hip from P5 to P6

[Kuuuch]

51 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

To me that's handle dragging I could never get there without having to bail out

I agree here. I think the width piece definitely helps remove the handle drag piece but idk that's just my opinion. For instance, I know when I worked on right elbow in front of right hip it fixed my arms trailing but caused me to get narrow and my next lesson was on keeping more width.

 

Good convo overall going though.

 

For me, I know if I hit shots off a downhill lie a couple things happen 1) I obviously keep my inclination to the ground but 2) my arms definitely get more "in front" and you even see some left shoulder/left chin separation like Sergio/Mac. Obviously not that extreme but its there. Definitely different ways to work on the same thing. I would guess for folks who grew up hitting a draw by overtilting/dropping the right shoulder the downhill feel would perhaps be best. 

 

 

[dap]

Use the counter fall to start downswing. It addresses so many issues. Here’s a good video that explains the move.