Senior Flex UST Mamiya Recoil 65 Graphite Iron Shaft

[ahenderX]

I have a set of standard Cleveland XL Halo graphite shafted irons in A Flex. I want to buy a new "test" shaft for my 6-iron. Would the UST Mamiya Recoil 65 Graphite iron shafts be a good choice? Looking for more height. I'm 68 with a slow to moderate swing speed. Want something with a little more flex than the standard shaft, which is a Project X Cypher 5.0 A. I have read comments where people who have tried this club and shaft combination could not tell the difference between senior flex and regular flex. One said he could not tell the difference between the senior and stiff flex. I know shaft selection can be very complicated. My budget is $60 or less. Thanks.

[Sparty4202]

I would look at the UST Recoil ESX 440 or 450 in the L flex. The Recoil 65 A is going to be similar to your current shaft. If the A flex is not giving you enough kick you may need to an L flex shaft.

[Stuart_G]

On 2/24/2023 at 5:22 PM, ahenderX said:

Looking for more height. I'm 68 with a slow to moderate swing speed. Want something with a little more flex than the standard shaft, which is a Project X Cypher 5.0 A.

 

Not familiar with that shaft but.

 

Since it's only a 1 shaft test,  I'd suggest trying a ultra-light L flex shaft - if that doesn't work I doubt anything will (as far as shafts shaft contribution to launch).   If it does work, you can take the time to be a bit more picky about the stiffness profile.    

 

Some ideas would be:

PX Catalyst Black 4.0 L flex (57 gm) or

UST 450 ESX F1 L-flex (52 gm)  or even

UST 440 ESX F0 "LL" (double L) flex shaft (48 gm).

 

If you want to stick to "A" Flex,  I expect the UST 460 ESX is has a higher launching profile than the Recoil 65.  Next highest might be the UST Recoil 760 ES.

 

BUT....

 

One important thing to understand is that only people with later releases (who start the release later in the swing and release quickly) will get any help directly from the shaft.  For people who start the release early and have a slower or more gradual release,  the shaft either doesn't load much in the first place or unloads before impact and there is little to no forward bend in the shaft left at impact - and therefor no added loft or height.   Even those who do have a late release - it really doesn't add a whole lot to the dynamic loft or height - so keep your expectations realistic.   One possibility is that there may not be any shaft out there that will give you what your looking for.

 

The easiest and most effective or reliable way of adding height is to simply have the lofts bent weaker.

 

I'd expect playing around with weight (shaft weight and swing weight) to be more likely to have some effect.   Lighter might help - or it might make the swing harder to control.

But the unfortunate truth is that ones swing speed is always going to be a limiting factor for your height (and spin).   Although you never know for sure until you try - so there is nothing wrong with testing out different shafts or options.

 

On 2/24/2023 at 5:22 PM, ahenderX said:

I have read comments where people who have tried this club and shaft combination could not tell the difference between senior flex and regular flex. One said he could not tell the difference between the senior and stiff flex. I know shaft selection can be very complicated. My budget is $60 or less. Thanks.

 

And sometimes people over-complicate it.   There certainly are some individuals that are very sensitive to the stiffness feel and they need to take a lot of time to find the right shaft - or experience negative consequences when playing the "wrong" shaft.    But for the majority of am's, the shaft stiffness isn't really that critical or influential to the results.  For those people, finding the right shaft weight is the main criteria they have to worry about.   Unfortunately, actual trail and error testing is the only way to find out whether you are in that majority - or in the minority.

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Stuart_G

[st1800e]

Based on published specs the  Recoil 65 is a mid/high launch, your cyphers are high launch so you’d be going in the wrong direction with the Recoil 65.  
 

Have a look at the recoil 440-450-460 shaft, high launch with more torque than what you have, which may help.  
 

You can find the specs on these and others at Golfworks.com. 
 

You mentioned your swing speed, what’s your swing speed with the Driver?  And irons if you know that? 
 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by st1800e

[ahenderX]

10 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Not familiar with that shaft but.

 

Since it's only a 1 shaft test,  I'd suggest trying a ultra-light L flex shaft - if that doesn't work I doubt anything will (as far as shafts shaft contribution to launch).   If it does work, you can take the time to be a bit more picky about the stiffness profile.    

 

Some ideas would be:

PX Catalyst Black 4.0 L flex (57 gm) or

UST 450 ESX F1 L-flex (52 gm)  or even

UST 440 ESX F0 "LL" (double L) flex shaft (48 gm).

 

If you want to stick to "A" Flex,  I expect the UST 460 ESX is has a higher launching profile than the Recoil 65.  Next highest might be the UST Recoil 760 ES.

 

BUT....

 

One important thing to understand is that only people with later releases (who start the release later in the swing and release quickly) will get any help directly from the shaft.  For people who start the release early and have a slower or more gradual release,  the shaft either doesn't load much in the first place or unloads before impact and there is little to no forward bend in the shaft left at impact - and therefor no added loft or height.   Even those who do have a late release - it really doesn't add a whole lot to the dynamic loft or height - so keep your expectations realistic.   One possibility is that there may not be any shaft out there that will give you what your looking for.

 

The easiest and most effective or reliable way of adding height is to simply have the lofts bent weaker.

 

I'd expect playing around with weight (shaft weight and swing weight) to be more likely to have some effect.   Lighter might help - or it might make the swing harder to control.

But the unfortunate truth is that ones swing speed is always going to be a limiting factor for your height (and spin).   Although you never know for sure until you try - so there is nothing wrong with testing out different shafts or options.

 

 

And sometimes people over-complicate it.   There certainly are some individuals that are very sensitive to the stiffness feel and they need to take a lot of time to find the right shaft - or experience negative consequences when playing the "wrong" shaft.    But for the majority of am's, the shaft stiffness isn't really that critical or influential to the results.  For those people, finding the right shaft weight is the main criteria they have to worry about.   Unfortunately, actual trail and error testing is the only way to find out whether you are in that majority - or in the minority.

 

Stuart, thank you very much for your detailed response. I’ve been working more on my swing and it’s showing progress in relation to ball launch. The stock shafts are fine. I think I have been looking for excuses for my poor play. Just moved up to the senior tees and my first round was 81. From the whites, I only broke 100 twice in the last 10 rounds. I think many of my problems related to being less than comfortable with the distance I have to carry on my second shot from the white tees, as well as having an erratic driver. I have ditched the driver in favor of a 5-wood. Senior tees have reduced the stress factor a lot. I think tension has been a main issue with my swing.

[ahenderX]

5 hours ago, st1800e said:

Based on published specs the  Recoil 65 is a mid/high launch, your cyphers are high launch so you’d be going in the wrong direction with the Recoil 65.  
 

Have a look at the recoil 440-450-460 shaft, high launch with more torque than what you have, which may help.  
 

You can find the specs on these and others at Golfworks.com. 
 

You mentioned your swing speed, what’s your swing speed with the Driver?  And irons if you know that? 
 

 

Thank you for responding. Using a inexpensive launch monitor, around 90 with the driver and probably mid to low 80s for the irons.

Edited March 8, 2023 by ahenderX

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, ahenderX said:

Stuart, thank you very much for your detailed response. I’ve been working more on my swing and it’s showing progress in relation to ball launch. The stock shafts are fine. I think I have been looking for excuses for my poor play. Just moved up to the senior tees and my first round was 81. From the whites, I only broke 100 twice in the last 10 rounds. I think many of my problems related to being less than comfortable with the distance I have to carry on my second shot from the white tees, as well as having an erratic driver. I have ditched the driver in favor of a 5-wood. Senior tees have reduced the stress factor a lot. I think tension has been a main issue with my swing.

 

As someone who had to move up a set of tees recently of a combination of shoulder surgery and age - I understand completely.

 

But also realize, while it's less influential when it comes to launch and spin and ball height - a good fit for the shaft (or a bad) can sometimes make a significant difference in the consistency of the swing and the consistency of getting good impact.   Most commonly, problems can arise from going too heavy or too light in shaft weight - which can have a negative effect on ones rhythm and tempo, sequencing and release timing.   The "too light" problem is fairly common when people transition from steel to graphite - particularly those that generally by off the shelf or by someone hoping to get more swing speed.

 

Not saying that's a problem for you - but it is something to be aware of.

 

[ahenderX]

On 3/8/2023 at 4:55 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

Not familiar with that shaft but.

 

Since it's only a 1 shaft test,  I'd suggest trying a ultra-light L flex shaft - if that doesn't work I doubt anything will (as far as shafts shaft contribution to launch).   If it does work, you can take the time to be a bit more picky about the stiffness profile.    

 

Some ideas would be:

PX Catalyst Black 4.0 L flex (57 gm) or

UST 450 ESX F1 L-flex (52 gm)  or even

UST 440 ESX F0 "LL" (double L) flex shaft (48 gm).

 

If you want to stick to "A" Flex,  I expect the UST 460 ESX is has a higher launching profile than the Recoil 65.  Next highest might be the UST Recoil 760 ES.

 

BUT....

 

One important thing to understand is that only people with later releases (who start the release later in the swing and release quickly) will get any help directly from the shaft.  For people who start the release early and have a slower or more gradual release,  the shaft either doesn't load much in the first place or unloads before impact and there is little to no forward bend in the shaft left at impact - and therefor no added loft or height.   Even those who do have a late release - it really doesn't add a whole lot to the dynamic loft or height - so keep your expectations realistic.   One possibility is that there may not be any shaft out there that will give you what your looking for.

 

The easiest and most effective or reliable way of adding height is to simply have the lofts bent weaker.

 

I'd expect playing around with weight (shaft weight and swing weight) to be more likely to have some effect.   Lighter might help - or it might make the swing harder to control.

But the unfortunate truth is that ones swing speed is always going to be a limiting factor for your height (and spin).   Although you never know for sure until you try - so there is nothing wrong with testing out different shafts or options.

 

 

And sometimes people over-complicate it.   There certainly are some individuals that are very sensitive to the stiffness feel and they need to take a lot of time to find the right shaft - or experience negative consequences when playing the "wrong" shaft.    But for the majority of am's, the shaft stiffness isn't really that critical or influential to the results.  For those people, finding the right shaft weight is the main criteria they have to worry about.   Unfortunately, actual trail and error testing is the only way to find out whether you are in that majority - or in the minority.

 

I’m looking at your shaft recommendations. The XL Halos have a hosel size of .362. Seems the vast majority of L flex shafts are .370. Not sure why the Halos are an odd size. I am 100% a novice on what will mate with what.

Edited March 9, 2023 by ahenderX

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, ahenderX said:

I’m looking at your shaft recommendations. The XL Halos have a hosel size of .362. Seems the vast majority of L flex shafts are .370. Not sure why the Halos are an odd size. I am 100% a novice on what will mate with what.

I see reaming the hosel to .370 is the best option.

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, ahenderX said:

The XL Halos have a hosel size of .362

That doesn’t sound right.  Never seen that.  Either .355 or .370. 
A .355 hosel is slightly tapered and will be larger at the top, but usually .370.  Did you measure or source that info?

I replaced a shaft in a 5 year old club of the similar model a while ago and it was .370.  

[ahenderX]

31 minutes ago, st1800e said:

That doesn’t sound right.  Never seen that.  Either .355 or .370. 
A .355 hosel is slightly tapered and will be larger at the top, but usually .370.  Did you measure or source that info?

I replaced a shaft in a 5 year old club of the similar model a while ago and it was .370.  

Got it off a US.Dunlopsports.com. Also see it on a wwgolf.com and golfusa.com. They all seem to be using the same spec chart.

Edited March 9, 2023 by ahenderX

[st1800e]

The other 2 websites get that info from Cleveland.  
The club I reshafted was a Cleveland HB Launcher, prev generation of what you have @ .370.  
I can’t see them them having an oddball size, would drive up costs unnecessarily.  
I’d be inclined to pull one first and check it before going for a rebore or ordering a shaft.  

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, ahenderX said:

I see reaming the hosel to .370 is the best option.

 

If they really are .362 that's one option - but graphite shafts are very easy to shape to fit the hosel.   When it comes to shaping a tip vs reaming the hosel in general - neither one is objectively better than the other option.   It's all a matter of what you feel more comfortable doing or what tools you might have available.

 

But I"m with @st1800e  I think that's very unlikely they would use an odd size like that.

 

Of course, both approaches will work regardless of what the actual size is.

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

If they really are .362 that's one option - but graphite shafts are very easy to shape to fit the hosel.   When it comes to shaping a tip vs reaming the hosel in general - neither one is objectively better than the other option.   It's all a matter of what you feel more comfortable doing or what tools you might have available.

 

But I"m with @st1800e  I think that's very unlikely they would use an odd size like that.

 

Of course, both approaches will work regardless of what the actual size is.

I have emailed Cleveland to get confirmation on the size.

[ahenderX]

The Halos are .355. 

[Sparty4202]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:11 AM, ahenderX said:

The Halos are .355. 

I reshafted a Halo with a Steelfiber i70 using a .370 parallel tip. As Stuart stated you will just need to sand the tip a little for it to fit properly.

[Mark_Tha_Tinkerer]

On 3/9/2023 at 1:59 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

Most commonly, problems can arise from going too heavy or too light in shaft weight - which can have a negative effect on ones rhythm and tempo, sequencing and release timing.   The "too light" problem is fairly common when people transition from steel to graphite - particularly those that generally by off the shelf or by someone hoping to get more swing speed.

 

 

 

Listen to Stuart and some other real club builders on this site. 

 

I am a newbie hobbyist club builder for about 1 year now.  I must have done everything wrong with my first club build.  Had a set of Titleist AP1 714s that I wanted to experiment with and change to graphite.  I thought all I needed to do was remove the heads from the steel shafts, buy the graphite shaft, cut to length, slap on a new grip and would be good to go.  I chose Recoil ES Smacwrap 760 F3 shafts (70 grams) and Winn Drytac Midsized grips (50 grams).  They looked so darn good after the build.  These turned out so light that I had absolutely no rhythm, timing or tempo.  Thought I had blown $40+ per shaft and $13 per grip for the 6 clubs (6-GW). 

 

As I learned more from this site and bought a decent swingweight scale (measures SW and total static weight), I figured out why I couldn’t hit the new irons.  The 6 iron I had played for years had a static weight of 440 grams (265 head + 110 shaft + 65 grip).  My graphite build was 385 grams (265 head + 70 shaft + 50 grip).  That weight difference was a bridge to far for me. 

 

So I started adding weight.  Went back to Tour Velvet +4 midsized grip (65.5 grams) and added another 15 or so grams in lead tape (under the grip) plus tungsten powder down the shaft capped with cork (I know, conventional wisdom is you can’t use tungsten powder with graphite shafts, but it worked for me).  What I discovered is that I had a great tempo and rhythm with my 6 iron at a static weight of somewhere between 410-420 grams.  Built the rest of the set with 6-8 gram differences in weight per club and used a progressive SW starting at D0.5 for the 6 iron and ending at D4.0 with the GW.  They feel and play great and better than before the switch to graphite. 

 

What I learned for future builds and picking out shafts is that I need to start with a target static weight of between 410-420 grams for a 6 iron.  Then I decide what grip I really want.   If I want the Tour Velvet +4 (65 grams), I need a shaft around 85 grams.  That gets me to a target of 415 grams for my 6 iron.  If I want the Winn DryTac midsized grip (50 grams), I need a shaft weighing around 100 grams to get my target static weight of 415 grams.  All other adjustments within the set can then be done with very small amounts of lead tape.     

 

I don’t think flex, torque and other intricate specifications of the shaft make much, if any, difference for a slow to moderate swing speed player like me.  If you know your optimal total static weight and the weight of your preferred grip, choose your shaft based upon its weight and your pain threshold for cost.

[Stuart_G]

8 hours ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

 (I know, conventional wisdom is you can’t use tungsten powder with graphite shafts, but it worked for me).

 

 

FWIW,

 

"Can't" isn't really the right word.    Due to the very small inner diameter of graphite shafts,  it's just a very ineffective method to increase swing weight - because you can't get much all the way down into the hosel.   That basically means it will take a greater increase in static weight to get a particular increase in swing weight.    In the case where the shaft weight is actually a good fit, that could push the static weight to become too heavy for an individual.   In your case, you likely needed the increase in static weight more than the increase in swing weight.   That's why it wasn't a problem for you.

 

The other potential problems - manufacturing a proper sized plug to hold the powder in place - and being very careful when ramming it into place without damaging the shaft - can be avoided if one is very careful.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Mark_Tha_Tinkerer]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

The other potential problems - manufacturing a proper sized plug to hold the powder in place - and being very careful when ramming it into place without damaging the shaft - can be avoided if one is very careful.

 

In a thread on WRX, a "WRXer" mentioned using foam ear plugs as the tungsten powder "plug" instead of cork.  Reshaping, cutting, epoxying and jamming cork down the AP1 shafts to act as the plug was a bothersome task.  On another experimental build (again trying to increase static weight on an old set of iron heads with new too light graphite shafts) to get the 6 iron to within a 410-420 gram range, I tried the foam ear plug hack.  Rolled them in my fingers into a tight cylinder, dropped them in and then rammed them all the way down the shaft.  Didn't even use epoxy.  They seem to have expanded into a nice tight fitting plug for me.  Time will tell if they stay seated properly, but using the foam ear plugs instead of cork sure was a lot easier with no aggravation.  If they loosen up, I'll try with a little epoxy next time.

[Stuart_G]

13 minutes ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

 

In a thread on WRX, a "WRXer" mentioned using foam ear plugs as the tungsten powder "plug" instead of cork. 

 

Interesting idea.

 

13 minutes ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

Reshaping, cutting, epoxying and jamming cork down the AP1 shafts to act as the plug was a bothersome task. 

 

And difficult to get right w/o being able to measure the actual ID where you need the plug.