French Drains

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, bcjim said:

iii. French drains (stone-filled drainage ditches).

 

But this suggests other wise. If it were covered by turf, how would anyone know? And why would it be a problem anyway. In my case, I suppose the fairway portion is such a thing but nobody would contemplate relief from there.  The open portion however is a "stone-filled drainage ditch".  Surely this doesn't all depend on the definition of "filled"?

Covered by turf? You might be surprised. Players may know that there could be stones just below the surface. Some referees carry a probe such as an ice pick or screw driver to help look for such an obstruction. 

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

My “version” of French drains is a drainage channel filled with stones and covered with turf, ie, definitely not an open ditch or waterway. 

 

What is it called after it has been constructed but not yet covered with turf? I ask because the "drains" we have on my home courses will gradually be covered by turf after a long period of time.

[Newby]

French drains may or may not be covered by turf. It depends on why and where they are installed. More likely than not when installed on a golf course, in or near a fairway, they will be; so that ultimately clubs will be protected and relief will not be necessary.

When covered by turf there is likely to be some 'shrinkage' in the short term producing a depression and resulting in an 'unfair' lie. This was obviated at my club by giving relief for the lie but not the stance.

 

Edited May 2 by Newby

[rogolf]

On 5/1/2024 at 10:03 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

What is it called after it has been constructed but not yet covered with turf? I ask because the "drains" we have on my home courses will gradually be covered by turf after a long period of time.

Obviously, it would have been called GUR.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, rogolf said:

Obviously, it would have been called GUR.

 

Why GUR? It is a construction, so why not an Immovable Obstruction?

 

 

Edited May 6 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why GUR? It is a construction, so why not an Immovable Obstruction?

 

 

Back in February I pointed out that the R&A did call them IOs but the USGA described them as GUR. So they compromised.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

Back in February I pointed out that the R&A did call them IOs but the USGA described them as GUR. So they compromised.

 

And the compromise is..?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And the compromise is..?

And your point is....?

[Newby]

53 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And the compromise is..?

The USGA accepted that they were IOs according to the definition. But they still preferred to use GUR as they believed most of their players would not be familiar with the term 'French drain' (even though they were named after an American) and they (players) didn't have to distinguish between turfed and open drains.

The R&A included GUR in their hard card.

I don't know what the USGA did to their hard card. I don't now referee over there.

[Mr. Bean]

59 minutes ago, rogolf said:

And your point is....?

 

My point is to know how we should call and write them down  in order to be uniform (or at least almost).

 

The point of my earlier question was how should a French Drain that is not yet a French Drain be called. If a French Drain is a construction covered with turf then a construction that is to become a FD cannot be a FD until it is covered with turf. So, how should that construction be called? The turf will gradually grow on top of the stones/gravel but no human hand is doing it so it is sort of finished and thus cannot be GUR if we follow the Definition strictly (as Sui Generis wanted to do).

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

My point is to know how we should call and write them down  in order to be uniform (or at least almost).

 

The point of my earlier question was how should a French Drain that is not yet a French Drain be called. If a French Drain is a construction covered with turf then a construction that is to become a FD cannot be a FD until it is covered with turf. So, how should that construction be called? The turf will gradually grow on top of the stones/gravel but no human hand is doing it so it is sort of finished and thus cannot be GUR if we follow the Definition strictly (as Sui Generis wanted to do).

The relief procedure for both is the same, what difference does it make to the player whether it's called GUR or IO?

[Mr. Bean]

27 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The relief procedure for both is the same, what difference does it make to the player whether it's called GUR or IO?

 

Basically no real difference. My only concern is that all the papers me and my colleagues write should use same specs.

 

Besides, relief procedures for GUR and IO are not identical. In this French Drain case they most aften are as in fairways but not necessarily in areas of higher vegetation.

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

My point is to know how we should call and write them down  in order to be uniform (or at least almost).

 

The point of my earlier question was how should a French Drain that is not yet a French Drain be called. If a French Drain is a construction covered with turf then a construction that is to become a FD cannot be a FD until it is covered with turf. So, how should that construction be called? The turf will gradually grow on top of the stones/gravel but no human hand is doing it so it is sort of finished and thus cannot be GUR if we follow the Definition strictly (as Sui Generis wanted to do).

I take your point but French drains may be 'open' (ie the stones or perforated pipe or membrane may not be covered), they may be eventually or immediately covered with turf, by soil and seed or a combination. But as long as damage may occur when taking a divot, IMO they are IOs. If a club or other authority wishes to identify them as GUR then that is the rule that players should play to.

Edited May 6 by Newby

[antip]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Besides, relief procedures for GUR and IO are not identical. In this French Drain case they most aften are as in fairways but not necessarily in areas of higher vegetation.

I think 2019 saw off any distinction in relief procedures.

[Mr. Bean]

25 minutes ago, antip said:

I think 2019 saw off any distinction in relief procedures.

 

So if there is a small bush growing from the gravel-filled ditch spreading in the air beyond the margin of that ditch the bush is part of the IO ? It is part of GUR but I did not know it is part of that IO.

[antip]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So if there is a small bush growing from the gravel-filled ditch spreading in the air beyond the margin of that ditch the bush is part of the IO ? It is part of GUR but I did not know it is part of that IO.

The relief area procedure is identical - precisely the same relief procedure covers animal holes, gur, immovable obstructions and temporary water. But it would be correct to observe that interference with gur can exist simply due to interference with something rooted in gur - a feature not shared with animal holes, immovable obstructions or temporary water.

[Newby]

I'll worry about it when I see a bush growing from a French drain.

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, Newby said:

I'll worry about it when I see a bush growing from a French drain.

 

And, I'll worry when I have to explain to a player (or their Little League dad) that this Ground Under Repair isn't really "under repair" but is really an Immovable Obstruction. 😉

[Newby]

9 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

And, I'll worry when I have to explain to a player (or their Little League dad) that this Ground Under Repair isn't really "under repair" but is really an Immovable Obstruction. 😉

That shouldn't be too difficult except that explaining anything to a 'Little League dad' can take all day

• Sprinkler heads, drains and irrigation or control boxes.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

That shouldn't be too difficult except that explaining anything to a 'Little League dad' can take all day

• Sprinkler heads, drains and irrigation or control boxes.

I don't think that mention of "drains" is intended to cover French drains, but means drain hole covers.

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So if there is a small bush growing from the gravel-filled ditch spreading in the air beyond the margin of that ditch the bush is part of the IO ? It is part of GUR but I did not know it is part of that IO.

We typically only mark GUR on fairways.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

I'll worry about it when I see a bush growing from a French drain.

 

Bush was simply an example. All you need is tall weed growing on top of a FD in the rough and you need to treat that weed differently between GUR and IO. That was my point.

 

After all this back and forth discussion I feel that the best way is to declare FD's IO's, and that is what they are by Definition.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

We typically only mark GUR on fairways.

 

Now you are acting silly. A French Drain is not marked as anything but declared as GUR/IO in Local Rules / Hard Card. Furthermore they tend to continue outside fairways.

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

We typically only mark GUR on fairways.

 

Not here. We may mark GUR anywhere that there's real "ground under repair." (I'm not talking about bare spots in the fairway.)

[rogolf]

16 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Not here. We may mark GUR anywhere that there's real "ground under repair." (I'm not talking about bare spots in the fairway.)

Understood. I was thinking of the bald spots etc. French drains are covered on our hard card, as GUR. 

[Mtn_Mikey]

On 2/27/2023 at 7:39 AM, Shilgy said:

Many thanks to @newby,   @antip,   @Mr. Bean,   @rogolf. and others.  You have all greatly helped myself and others when we ask questions.

 

Something that has come up often this winter here in the desert of Arizona has been rainstorms. When we get excessive rain we get furrows or rivulets in the soil of the desert areas.  Is there a rule or local rule available that would get relief from these?  When we get a storm during or right before a club event it causes issues with some players taking relief and others not.  The grounds crew does try to get to these as soon  as possible but with such a large area and small crew they cannot always get them repaired before competition and are too numerous to paint as GUR.

 

 

Thank you in advance.

 Here west of Suprise this is on our scorecard defining local rules: "Ground under repair includes eroded areas in red granite rocks". Of course, there are those that will try to game any depression as erosion. The entire course is surrounded by various sizes of red granite rocks some with their own local rules that are not germane to this discussion. Like your course, understaffed maintenance may take months to get to these areas.