French Drains

[Newby]

We have recently finished major irrigation work on one of our holes. This included constructing a network of French drains. They have all now been covered with a soil/sand mix and reseeded. The grass has geminated but the 'fill' has inevitable sunk slightly. This is gradually being corrected by hand filling.

 

The hole is being reopened shortly and I will be introducing a local rule to give relief from the 'scarred'/sunken surface of the drains themselves. Depending on the depth of the 'scars' I might deny relief for stance only. The drains are too extensive for white lining.

 

Although I could construct such a Local Rule, I rather hope that one of you esteemed experts may already have a specimen that I could lift without troubling my little grey cells.

 

Thanks

[antip]

This is from the USGA Hard Card: "French drains are ground under repair."

[Colin L]

French drains are also immovable obstructions without the need of a local rule but I think Newby  is looking for wording for a drain that is now covered with grass.  Presumably the gravel infill is close enough under the surface to interfere with your intended swing.

[rogolf]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

We have recently finished major irrigation work on one of our holes. This included constructing a network of French drains. They have all now been covered with a soil/sand mix and reseeded. The grass has geminated but the 'fill' has inevitable sunk slightly. This is gradually being corrected by hand filling.

 

The hole is being reopened shortly and I will be introducing a local rule to give relief from the 'scarred'/sunken surface of the drains themselves. Depending on the depth of the 'scars' I might deny relief for stance only. The drains are too extensive for white lining.

 

Although I could construct such a Local Rule, I rather hope that one of you esteemed experts may already have a specimen that I could lift without troubling my little grey cells.

 

Thanks

As you are no doubt aware, "French drain" is the name of a specific type of drainage which contains rocks/gravel below the surface.  Our hard card provides relief from French drains that contain rocks.  Relief is not provided for other types of drainage channels (such as those that are sand based and don't contain rocks/gravel).  My experience is that golfers will call any type of drainage system/linear depression a French drain and look for free relief.  This expectation then spreads broadly and quickly.  Our course has a couple of areas where drainage (not French drains) has been installed resulting in slight depressions or slightly elevated lines.  We had a national championship last year where our hard card was in effect and gave relief from French drains.  We specifically said (on the notice to players) that there were no French drains on the course.

Since your situation is confined to one fairway, you could also consider lift, clean and place within one club-length on that fairway only until the "healing" is complete, avoiding any confusion over the type of drainage.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by rogolf

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

French drains are also immovable obstructions without the need of a local rule but I think Newby  is looking for wording for a drain that is now covered with grass.  Presumably the gravel infill is close enough under the surface to interfere with your intended swing.

Exactly

[Newby]

2 hours ago, antip said:

This is from the USGA Hard Card: "French drains are ground under repair."

Interesting.

Some years ago I found that the USGA had that on their Hard Card whilst the R&A described them as IOs.

I had various correspondence with both RBs. The R&A simply said as they satisfied the definition of IOs that was sufficient. The USGA explained that although they agreed they were IOs and that strictly no more was necessary, they thought that as they related to the surface of the ground, GUR would be more easily understood by players. 

At that time both parties agreed amicably to differ.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

 

Since your situation is confined to one fairway, you could also consider lift, clean and place within one club-length on that fairway only until the "healing" is complete, avoiding any confusion over the type of drainage.

 

I have been considering that but the norm over here is 6" for LCP and it may be confusing as LCP may well still be in place in the current weather/ground conditions.

 

Incidentally, many of the drain runs are very close together. But as stance interference is not really an issue now, so I don't propose to give relief for stance only. 

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Newby said:

The hole is being reopened shortly and I will be introducing a local rule to give relief from the 'scarred'/sunken surface of the drains themselves. Depending on the depth of the 'scars' I might deny relief for stance only. The drains are too extensive for white lining.

 

Where did that suddenly disappear ? All suggestions so far are GUR and relief based on that. I thought you asked for an already finished version of GUR excluding stance.

 

What is wrong with F-6 ?

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

I have been considering that but the norm over here is 6" for LCP and it may be confusing as LCP may well still be in place in the current weather/ground conditions.

 

Incidentally, many of the drain runs are very close together. But as stance interference is not really an issue now, so I don't propose to give relief for stance only. 

Things are not going to be "standard" for that hole, whether it's a deviation from your "standard" LCP or deviation from normal ACC relief by denying stance relief.  The players need to be given some credit for understanding that things are different on that hole.

[Newby]

I wrote "Depending on the depth of the 'scars' I might deny relief for stance only."

I was just indicating that I may or may not use F-6. I haven't inspected the state of the healing for a week but know they were back filling the depressions on Friday. 

[Newby]

4 hours ago, antip said:

This is from the USGA Hard Card: "French drains are ground under repair."

I have just noticed that the R & A Hard Card now says: 

 

3 Abnormal Course Conditions (including Immovable Obstructions)

Ground Under Repair 

(4) French drains (stone-filled drainage ditches).

Edited February 26, 2023 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

19 minutes ago, Newby said:

I wrote "Depending on the depth of the 'scars' I might deny relief for stance only."

I was just indicating that I may or may not use F-6. I haven't inspected the state of the healing for a week but know they were back filling the depressions on Friday. 

 

Ok, but to me it sounded like you lacked the wording. I must have misunderstood this:

 

"Although I could construct such a Local Rule, I rather hope that one of you esteemed experts may already have a specimen that I could lift without troubling my little grey cells."

[Shilgy]

On 2/26/2023 at 10:19 AM, Newby said:

I have just noticed that the R & A Hard Card now says: 

 

3 Abnormal Course Conditions (including Immovable Obstructions)

Ground Under Repair 

(4) French drains (stone-filled drainage ditches).

Referring to the respective hard cards….that is for their events-is that correct?  Why would they not just add to the rules everyone uses?

Edited May 8 by Shilgy

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Referring to the respective hard cards….that is for their events-is that correct?  Why would they nut just add to the rules everyone uses?

Because french drains are to be covered by grass and that LR is to cover the intermediate period.

[Shilgy]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Because french drains are to be covered by grass and that LR is to cover the intermediate period.

Ah, gotcha.  Thank you.

 

Although…..and I hate to mention this because I’ll fight tooth and nail to keep the lack of a “divot rule”…..when is a French drain grown in?

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Ah, gotcha.  Thank you.

 

Although…..and I hate to mention this because I’ll fight tooth and nail to keep the lack of a “divot rule”…..when is a French drain grown in?

When the Committee decide so.

The difference is that the Committee will normally have specified in the LR where the French drain(s) is/are located. The relevant Hard Cards will have an addendum or such.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Newby

[Shilgy]

Just now, Newby said:

When the Committee decide so.

The difference is that the Committee will normally have specified in the LR defined where the French drain 

is located. The relevant Hard Cards will have an addendum or such.

Rather than all French drains get relief those noted on the hard card get relief…..all others(if they existed) are considered grown in and must be played from.  Makes better sense….thank you

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Rather than all French drains get relief those noted on the hard card get relief…..all others(if they existed) are considered grown in and must be played from.  Makes better sense….thank you

Just for clarification, the "hard card" is a listing of the standard Local Rules that will apply to all competitions run by the Association (eg, USGA).  The "hard card" is not modified for different courses.

Edited February 27, 2023 by rogolf

[Colin L]

11 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Although…..and I hate to mention this because I’ll fight tooth and nail to keep the lack of a “divot rule”…..when is a French drain grown in?

 

I'd suggest when there is a thick enough cover to remove any  risk of a clubhead hitting artificial material below the surface.

[Newby]

8 hours ago, rogolf said:

Just for clarification, the "hard card" is a listing of the standard Local Rules that will apply to all competitions run by the Association (eg, USGA).  The "hard card" is not modified for different courses.

PGA Australia have the following on their Hard Card

 

2. Penalty Areas. Rule 17. (a) Opposite Side Same Distance Relief for Red Penalty Areas. The weekly Local Rules sheet will specify which (if any) red Penalty Areas have a same distance option on the opposite side. Model Local Rule B-2.1 will apply only to the Penalty Areas that are listed.

9. Temporary Immovable Obstructions. (TIO). The weekly Local Rules sheet will specify which TIO have (sic) an either side option.

 

Which suggests there could be course specific variations.

 

[antip]

33 minutes ago, Newby said:

PGA Australia have the following on their Hard Card

 

2. Penalty Areas. Rule 17. (a) Opposite Side Same Distance Relief for Red Penalty Areas. The weekly Local Rules sheet will specify which (if any) red Penalty Areas have a same distance option on the opposite side. Model Local Rule B-2.1 will apply only to the Penalty Areas that are listed.

9. Temporary Immovable Obstructions. (TIO). The weekly Local Rules sheet will specify which TIO have (sic) an either side option.

 

Which suggests there could be course specific variations.

 

Many hard cards explicitly state they can be varied for local conditions. I suspect the reason the USGA one doesn't say that explicitly is they have complete control of the course set up, which is planned well in advance.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Many hard cards explicitly state they can be varied for local conditions.

 

In every competition around here there are separate Local Rules in effect that are not covered by the Hard Card as those LR's are specific to that particular course.

 

Our HC begins with these words:

 

"The following Local Rules and Terms of Competition, together with any additions or amendments published by the championship committee at the golf course, will apply to all tournaments run by FGU."

 

And as @rogolf wrote, that HC is not modified to match a course but course specific issues are those not generally covered by the HC. No part of HC can be overruled by the local committee.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

13 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Although…..and I hate to mention this because I’ll fight tooth and nail to keep the lack of a “divot rule”…..when is a French drain grown in?

 

This is the same dilemma as with roads and paths covered with gravel/pebbles. How far does the road extend? That is up to the referee to decide and that is why s/he has a knife or similar sharp object with which one can probe the terrain to see if a particular spot is safe to be played from.

[CaseyC]

Might I suggest using stakes to define the GUR

 

 

From USGA Rule 2

 

It is recommended that the Committee identify ground under repair by using paint, stakes or some other clear way of defining it such that there is no doubt as to where the edge of the area is.

[Newby]

3 hours ago, CaseyC said:

Might I suggest using stakes to define the GUR

 

 

From USGA Rule 2

 

It is recommended that the Committee identify ground under repair by using paint, stakes or some other clear way of defining it such that there is no doubt as to where the edge of the area is.

I'm afraid paint or stakes would be very difficult. The area covers about 200 yards of fairway with a drain every every yard or two. 

I'm doing an inspection later and expect to find that the seeded lines will have recovered already or be obvious to the players if affecting the ball or stroke.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, CaseyC said:

Might I suggest using stakes to define the GUR

 

 

From USGA Rule 2

 

It is recommended that the Committee identify ground under repair by using paint, stakes or some other clear way of defining it such that there is no doubt as to where the edge of the area is.

 

That method is just fine for GUR that is of temporary nature and scarce on the course. Then again, french drains are in fact Immovable Obstructions by Definition, some just prefer name them as GUR.

[Shilgy]

Many thanks to @newby,   @antip,   @Mr. Bean,   @rogolf. and others.  You have all greatly helped myself and others when we ask questions.

 

Something that has come up often this winter here in the desert of Arizona has been rainstorms. When we get excessive rain we get furrows or rivulets in the soil of the desert areas.  Is there a rule or local rule available that would get relief from these?  When we get a storm during or right before a club event it causes issues with some players taking relief and others not.  The grounds crew does try to get to these as soon  as possible but with such a large area and small crew they cannot always get them repaired before competition and are too numerous to paint as GUR.

 

 

Thank you in advance.

[Mr. Bean]

17 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Many thanks to @newby,   @antip,   @Mr. Bean,   @rogolf. and others.  You have all greatly helped myself and others when we ask questions.

 

Something that has come up often this winter here in the desert of Arizona has been rainstorms. When we get excessive rain we get furrows or rivulets in the soil of the desert areas.  Is there a rule or local rule available that would get relief from these?  When we get a storm during or right before a club event it causes issues with some players taking relief and others not.  The grounds crew does try to get to these as soon  as possible but with such a large area and small crew they cannot always get them repaired before competition and are too numerous to paint as GUR.

 

 

Thank you in advance.

 

I believe Model Local Rule F-4 is what you are looking for.

 

https://www.randa.org/rog/committee-procedures/8#8f_f-4

 

In our Hard Card there is this sentence:

 

"3 Abnormal Course Conditions (including lmmovable Obstructions) (Rule 16) 3a) Ground Under Repair

(1) Any area bounded by a white or blue line or blue stakes.

(2) Any area of damaged ground that is considered by a referee to be abnormal (e.g. caused by vehicle movement or heavy rain/irrigation)."

 

The challenge there is that a player should consult a referee before taking relief but in practice experienced players tend to take the relief as per a consensus decision within the group. Such damaged areas are relatively common in bunkers after a heavy or prolonged rain.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Shilgy]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I believe Model Local Rule F-4 is what you are looking for.

 

https://www.randa.org/rog/committee-procedures/8#8f_f-4

👍

perfect thank you

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

I'm afraid paint or stakes would be very difficult. The area covers about 200 yards of fairway with a drain every every yard or two. 

I'm doing an inspection later and expect to find that the seeded lines will have recovered already or be obvious to the players as affecting the ball or stroke.

We had a situation at a national championship at our course this past summer where there was a lot of GUR to be marked in about a 140 yard by 50 yard area of one particular fairway - a par 5 and the area was from the 150 yard marker towards the green.  Painting or staking each area that we considered GUR would have taken much time and paint, and would likely have resulted in players moving from one area of GUR to another when taking relief.  We decided to paint the larger areas as GUR but also to delineate the entire area of fairway with four blue stakes at the edge of the fairway - two identifying the beginning of the area and two the end of the area.  The sides of the area were identified as the fairway mower cut.  Within that area of fairway we permitted lift, clean and place within one club-length.  The player could take free relief from the identified GUR and then do LCP.  During the four day event (likely around 550 rounds played), there were no issues reported by the referees or players.