USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[GoGoErky]

8 hours ago, maamold said:

Strokes matter, score is meaningless. In match play guys aren't going out to shoot 62 they are going out to play better than the other guy on 'each hole'. different mindset, different strategy. 

A stroke is a score and the stroke or score on a hole matter. The lower stoke count or The lower score wins the hole. The more holes won than lost the better.

 

they are the same thing.

 

Who cares if the mindset is different in stroke play vs March play. Score still matters in both or put another way total number of strokes per in medal play vs total number of strokes on a hole, one hole at a time

[Ashley Schaeffer]

17 hours ago, maamold said:

"The biggest fundamental change in the game since I've been a pro, is traditionally the driver has been the hardest club to hit in the bag, and now it's the most forgiving. And that's the biggest evolutionary change in the golf bag to me out of the equipment."

"The ball is the ball, but the driver went from the hardest club to hit to now the most forgiving and the go-to club for guys if they are nervous. The penalty for missing a driver just isn't high enough anymore, in my opinion, at the top level. I'd like to address that first and see what knock on effects that has. If guys wanna swing at it 130 with a tiny driver head then good luck." - Adam Scott

"...but now it's come to a point where you don't have to hit the ball in the center and you can hit get the same amount of yardage and same accuracy as somebody who does hit it in the center, and obviously not being a huge guy my advantage was being able to hit the ball in the middle of the face and and be in the fairway .But but now everyone's hitting it long everyone's hitting it everyone's hitting it semi straight and um so it it ends up  becoming a bombers putting contest..." - Anthony Kim
 

 

I wonder why they don't swing faster with their current drivers if they acknowledge that there is little penalty in doing so.  Is it because they don't have the ability to do so? Can't be that.  

[Archimedes65]

18 hours ago, maamold said:

"The biggest fundamental change in the game since I've been a pro, is traditionally the driver has been the hardest club to hit in the bag, and now it's the most forgiving. And that's the biggest evolutionary change in the golf bag to me out of the equipment."

"The ball is the ball, but the driver went from the hardest club to hit to now the most forgiving and the go-to club for guys if they are nervous. The penalty for missing a driver just isn't high enough anymore, in my opinion, at the top level. I'd like to address that first and see what knock on effects that has. If guys wanna swing at it 130 with a tiny driver head then good luck." - Adam Scott

"...but now it's come to a point where you don't have to hit the ball in the center and you can hit get the same amount of yardage and same accuracy as somebody who does hit it in the center, and obviously not being a huge guy my advantage was being able to hit the ball in the middle of the face and and be in the fairway .But but now everyone's hitting it long everyone's hitting it everyone's hitting it semi straight and um so it it ends up  becoming a bombers putting contest..." - Anthony Kim
 

 

100%.  I quit golf in 2008 after back surgery, came back to it in 2018.  The difference in my old driver (983k) and the one I replaced it with (M6) was mind boggling.  Bigger, faster, longer, more stable, more forgiving.  It was a step change.  Since then, I haven’t noticed as much, but the advances during that period were huge.  But, honestly, if I still had to play a 983k, I wouldn’t even be playing golf anymore.  Having a club that I can hit decently off the tee is table stakes for me.  And I think most fans agree, which is why if they tried to roll back the driver for amateurs there would be a rebellion by the manufacturers.

[maamold]

3 hours ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

I wonder why they don't swing faster with their current drivers if they acknowledge that there is little penalty in doing so.  Is it because they don't have the ability to do so? Can't be that.  

They do. Kim and Scott stated there is no penalty doing so with the modern equipment. Should I say it again so you can't glaze over the statements ...They do swing as hard as they can with the modern equipment with little penalty. I'll paste their statements again...

"The biggest fundamental change in the game since I've been a pro, is traditionally the driver has been the hardest club to hit in the bag, and now it's the most forgiving. And that's the biggest evolutionary change in the golf bag to me out of the equipment." - Adam Scott

"The ball is the ball, but the driver went from the hardest club to hit to now the most forgiving and the go-to club for guys if they are nervous. The penalty for missing a driver just isn't high enough anymore, in my opinion, at the top level. I'd like to address that first and see what knock on effects that has. If guys wanna swing at it 130 with a tiny driver head then good luck." - Adam Scott

 

“The driver is the most forgiving club in the bag now. You swing as hard as you can and get it down there far, it’s not skillful. It’s not a skillful part of the game anymore.” - Adam Scott

“Now the drivers are made so easy to hit that there’s no penalty for swinging as hard as you want to at every driver, because it won’t go as far off-line, There’s no penalty for really going all-out on one. That’s changed a lot.”  - Brandt Snedeker.

"...but now it's come to a point where you don't have to hit the ball in the center and you can hit get the same amount of yardage and same accuracy as somebody who does hit it in the center, and obviously not being a huge guy my advantage was being able to hit the ball in the middle of the face and and be in the fairway .But but now everyone's hitting it long everyone's hitting it everyone's hitting it semi straight and um so it it ends up  becoming a bombers putting contest..." - Anthony Kim

 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

6 minutes ago, maamold said:

They do. Kim and Scott stated there is no penalty doing so with the modern equipment. Should I say it again so you can't glaze over the statements ...They do swing as hard as they can with the modern equipment with little penalty. I'll paste their statements again...

"The biggest fundamental change in the game since I've been a pro, is traditionally the driver has been the hardest club to hit in the bag, and now it's the most forgiving. And that's the biggest evolutionary change in the golf bag to me out of the equipment." - Adam Scott

"The ball is the ball, but the driver went from the hardest club to hit to now the most forgiving and the go-to club for guys if they are nervous. The penalty for missing a driver just isn't high enough anymore, in my opinion, at the top level. I'd like to address that first and see what knock on effects that has. If guys wanna swing at it 130 with a tiny driver head then good luck." - Adam Scott

 

“The driver is the most forgiving club in the bag now. You swing as hard as you can and get it down there far, it’s not skillful. It’s not a skillful part of the game anymore.” - Adam Scott

“Now the drivers are made so easy to hit that there’s no penalty for swinging as hard as you want to at every driver, because it won’t go as far off-line, There’s no penalty for really going all-out on one. That’s changed a lot.”  - Brandt Snedeker.

"...but now it's come to a point where you don't have to hit the ball in the center and you can hit get the same amount of yardage and same accuracy as somebody who does hit it in the center, and obviously not being a huge guy my advantage was being able to hit the ball in the middle of the face and and be in the fairway .But but now everyone's hitting it long everyone's hitting it everyone's hitting it semi straight and um so it it ends up  becoming a bombers putting contest..." - Anthony Kim

 

Yes, they swing as hard as THEY can. I was getting at the fact that they may not have as big an issue with it if they were still able to get it out there with the younger guys.  Same sh*t we've been hearing for decades from the older guard. I don't like the sentiment of, "We used to have to do X."  Just swing it 130.  Hell, swing it 140.  They say it'll go straight, so do it.  Maybe the fact they can't has a bit to do with the criticism.  Just a thought.

[GoGoErky]

6 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

Yes, they swing as hard as THEY can. I was getting at the fact that they may not have as big an issue with it if they were still able to get it out there with the younger guys.  Same sh*t we've been hearing for decades from the older guard. I don't like the sentiment of, "We used to have to do X."  Just swing it 130.  Hell, swing it 140.  They say it'll go straight, so do it.  Maybe the fact they can't has a bit to do with the criticism.  Just a thought.

Finau has said as much. Bryson complains about the penalty for hitting it all over the face with high ball speed.

 

Theres a point of diminishing return for all of them, it’s matter of what point that is for each golfer but somewhere around 180-185 mph ball speed seems to be where it is. Despite Finau having the ability to reach almost 199-200 he hovers around 183

Edited May 21 by GoGoErky

[Ashley Schaeffer]

8 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Finau has said as much. Bryson complains about the penalty for hitting it all over the face with high ball speed.

 

Theres a point of diminishing return for all of them, it’s matter of what point that is for each golfer but somewhere around 180-185 mph ball speed seems to be where it is. Despite Finau having the ability to reach almost 199-200 he hovers around 183

Yeah, I think saying the younger guys aren't skilled is like saying, "Well, the only reason that basketball player is good is because he's 6'10" and can grab the top of the backboard.  He should have to have a mid-range game like we had to."  Wrong.  Prioritized skills evolve, and what made athletes great in the past might not be what makes them great today.  

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

Yeah, I think saying the younger guys aren't skilled is like saying, "Well, the only reason that basketball player is good is because he's 6'10" and can grab the top of the backboard.  He should have to have a mid-range game like we had to."  Wrong.  Prioritized skills evolve, and what made athletes great in the past might not be what makes them great today.  

Exactly. 

[StoutKing]

1 hour ago, maamold said:

They do. Kim and Scott stated there is no penalty doing so with the modern equipment. Should I say it again so you can't glaze over the statements ...They do swing as hard as they can with the modern equipment with little penalty. I'll paste their statements again...

"The biggest fundamental change in the game since I've been a pro, is traditionally the driver has been the hardest club to hit in the bag, and now it's the most forgiving. And that's the biggest evolutionary change in the golf bag to me out of the equipment." - Adam Scott

"The ball is the ball, but the driver went from the hardest club to hit to now the most forgiving and the go-to club for guys if they are nervous. The penalty for missing a driver just isn't high enough anymore, in my opinion, at the top level. I'd like to address that first and see what knock on effects that has. If guys wanna swing at it 130 with a tiny driver head then good luck." - Adam Scott

 

“The driver is the most forgiving club in the bag now. You swing as hard as you can and get it down there far, it’s not skillful. It’s not a skillful part of the game anymore.” - Adam Scott

“Now the drivers are made so easy to hit that there’s no penalty for swinging as hard as you want to at every driver, because it won’t go as far off-line, There’s no penalty for really going all-out on one. That’s changed a lot.”  - Brandt Snedeker.

"...but now it's come to a point where you don't have to hit the ball in the center and you can hit get the same amount of yardage and same accuracy as somebody who does hit it in the center, and obviously not being a huge guy my advantage was being able to hit the ball in the middle of the face and and be in the fairway .But but now everyone's hitting it long everyone's hitting it everyone's hitting it semi straight and um so it it ends up  becoming a bombers putting contest..." - Anthony Kim

 

Boom.  Mic drop

[TLUBulldogGolf]

4 hours ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

Yes, they swing as hard as THEY can. I was getting at the fact that they may not have as big an issue with it if they were still able to get it out there with the younger guys.  Same sh*t we've been hearing for decades from the older guard. I don't like the sentiment of, "We used to have to do X."  Just swing it 130.  Hell, swing it 140.  They say it'll go straight, so do it.  Maybe the fact they can't has a bit to do with the criticism.  Just a thought.

Adam Scott is 34th in ball speed..

[clevited]

9 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Adam Scott is 34th in ball speed..

 

And 63rd in driving accuracy.  Go figure.

 

Edit: 170th last year.  Meanwhile....Cam Champ was 95th last year.

Edited May 22 by clevited

[GoGoErky]

Just now, clevited said:

 

And 63rd in driving accuracy.  Go figure.

Mic drop 😃

[TLUBulldogGolf]

34 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

And 63rd in driving accuracy.  Go figure.

 

Edit: 170th last year.  Meanwhile....Cam Champ was 95th last year.

 

63rd isn't even bad. And Rory is 27th. Do any of these things actually make what he's saying invalid?

Edited May 22 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Pnwpingi210]

 

let’s just put all his stats up here in regards to driving.

 

[Pnwpingi210]

45 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

63rd isn't even bad. And Rory is 27th. Do any of these things actually make what he's saying invalid?

It’s Adam’s and Anthony’s anecdotal opinion.  The data on driving distance or accuracy doesn’t invalidate it, as it’s there first hand perspective.   What we do know is anecdotes are the least accurate form of evidence.  

 

There is a company out there that publishes “forgiveness” tests on clubs, including driver.   They have published last years model and are in the process of publishing this years.  It’s pretty cool, and using about as scientific of a method as you’ll find.  

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

It’s Adam’s and Anthony’s anecdotal opinion.  The data on driving distance or accuracy doesn’t invalidate it, as it’s there first hand perspective.   What we do know is anecdotes are the least accurate form of evidence.  

 

There is a company out there that publishes “forgiveness” tests on clubs, including driver.   They have published last years model and are in the process of publishing this years.  It’s pretty cool, and using about as scientific of a method as you’ll find.  

And we know based on data and personal opinions of pros that there is a point of diminishing returns so despite the anecdotal opinions that the driver doesn’t have penalties isn’t accurate. There comes a point where there is a penalty and therefore guys aren’t swing with all they have. Not to mention we have a golfer who has actually stated that in Tony Finau 

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

And we know based on data and personal opinions of pros that there is a point of diminishing returns so despite the anecdotal opinions that the driver doesn’t have penalties isn’t accurate. There comes a point where there is a penalty and therefore guys aren’t swing with all they have. Not to mention we have a golfer who has actually stated that in Tony Finau 

That is Tony finau’s truth based on his abilities to manage path and club face.  Data would show other players are able to swing faster, hit the ball farther, and hit the ball more accurately than Tony.  
 

  
 

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

21 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

That is Tony finau’s truth based on his abilities to manage path and club face.  Data would show other players are able to swing faster, hit the ball farther, and hit the ball more accurately than Tony.  
 

  
 

 

 

The most interesting (IMO) data set to acquire and analyze would be dispersion when hitting driver vs. dispersion when hitting fairway wood (angular dispersion). You could also normalize out the length and loft of the fairway woods to get an idea of what a smaller headed driver would achieve performance wise. Not perfect by any means and spin differences as well as aiming point would degrade the analysis, but it still might be useful information. 

[clevited]

2 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

63rd isn't even bad. And Rory is 27th. Do any of these things actually make what he's saying invalid?

 

Well, this isn't yet a full season.  Last year's stats are a bit more telling.  Rory was right next to him in driving accuracy.  Point is, it does indeed diminish the value of what he said.  He has spanned the time of drivers being smaller vs now.  If what he said is true, why isn't he able to keep up with these guys at least accuracy wise that are swinging 10+ mph faster than him?  

Edited May 22 by clevited

[gvogel]

17 hours ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

Yeah, I think saying the younger guys aren't skilled is like saying, "Well, the only reason that basketball player is good is because he's 6'10" and can grab the top of the backboard.  He should have to have a mid-range game like we had to."  Wrong.  Prioritized skills evolve, and what made athletes great in the past might not be what makes them great today.  

I think that the younger guys are highly skilled.  I also believe that the distance gains they have achieved have way out paced the ability of courses to get longer.  As a matter of fact, I believe that the young guys are so highly skilled that they will not have any trouble adopting to a rolled back ball, and would easily adopt to a driver head of 230cc's.  So let's get on with it and see what happens.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

25 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Well, this isn't yet a full season.  Last year's stats are a bit more telling.  Rory was right next to him in driving accuracy.  Point is, it does indeed diminish the value of what he said.  He has spanned the time of drivers being smaller vs now.  If what he said is true, why isn't he able to keep up with these guys at least accuracy wise that are swinging 10+ mph faster than him?  

There’s not a single player on tour 10+ MPH faster than him. Which was part of my original point. Some around his same speed are less accurate and some are more accurate. The ones that are more accurate are probably better golfers than him. Him saying driver is easier to hit now doesn’t mean it’s an auto fairway. His perspective playing across the equipment revolution has weight in my eyes.

[Pnwpingi210]

33 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Well, this isn't yet a full season.  Last year's stats are a bit more telling.  Rory was right next to him in driving accuracy.  Point is, it does indeed diminish the value of what he said.  He has spanned the time of drivers being smaller vs now.  If what he said is true, why isn't he able to keep up with these guys at least accuracy wise that are swinging 10+ mph faster than him?  

Adam has never been an accurate driver of the ball relative to the field.  There could be lots of reasons for that (poor start lines, bad overall strategy).  He has been relatively long compared to the field and accurate enough most of his career to do well in strokes gained off the tee.

 

None of that diminishes his opinion.

[NPVWhiz]

I think I can safely say that what the young guys aren’t skilled at is having the driver be the most difficult club in the bag to hit properly, and yes, I have a personal view/sense/definition of what hit properly means.  For most of the history of the competitive game, the driver was a club that required 

immense skill to hit properly.  The evolution of the driver since the 80s has changed, fundamentally changed, the nature of the game.  I think that the change has diminished the competitive game.  I acknowledge that it makes the casual game more fun for a segment of casual players.  The USGA, as the co-stewards of the rules, permitted this and I’d like to see tournament golf rebalanced so that the skill of hitting the longest club in the bag on a small spot on the face becomes a meaningful skill again.  Put a Titleist 976R with a useful spot the size of a dime  and a smidge more bulge than the oem version in the hands of some of these pros under the age of 35 and they’d pucker up when making par means keeping the card or playing in Guatamala.  Or Iceland, or the Philippines.  Or this place.  
 

And I do want to assert that I’m not a Luddite.  I completely get that the Titleist Tour Balata was a far superior ball to the feathery.   Some changes make sense.  The 460cc driver was a mistake in my opinion.  And I accept that opinions can differ.  
 

But if the USGA ever puts me in charge, in the words of the immortal Curtis Mayfield, “people get ready, there’s a change a comin’”.  

Edited May 22 by NPVWhiz
I always reserve the right to change my mind if the data supports it. And, sometimes, it may be just that the wind changed.

[Golfnutgalen]

1 hour ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

There’s not a single player on tour 10+ MPH faster than him. Which was part of my original point. Some around his same speed are less accurate and some are more accurate. The ones that are more accurate are probably better golfers than him. Him saying driver is easier to hit now doesn’t mean it’s an auto fairway. His perspective playing across the equipment revolution has weight in my eyes.

 

I don't really get that original point either. They're all hitting those big forgiving drivers so why should he be more or less accurate than the field?

 

Adam Scott is more accurate now than he used to be by the way.

 

The point is they can swing it harder and faster than before in part because of the more forgiving equipment. The longer courses over the years have contributed to this mindset making distance even more valuable. And the rollback won't help and will only make things worse.

 

What they should have done ages ago is limited the driver size to ~300-350 cc. That would make misshits more punishing and accuracy more important. 

 

Edited May 22 by Golfnutgalen

[Ashley Schaeffer]

14 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Adam Scott is 34th in ball speed..

He should just swing harder. He says there's no penalty for doing so, so do it. 

Edited May 22 by Ashley Schaeffer

[Chunkitgood]

The funny thing is people want to dismiss as anecdotal the experience of some tour pros even though that experience tells them the exact same thing the equipment manufacturers tell us and with which the data is at least consistent.

 

That is, that drivers are constantly becoming more “forgiving” and attuned to optimal use.

 

My look at the data says there was a big bump 20 years ago and since then the pro have been able either to adapt to the the current state and/or utilize whatever improvements have been made since and get longer, while normal golfers are pretty much stuck where they were 20 years ago.

 

The basic principle is that good golfers can make use of whatever improvements are made in equipment while poor golfers cannot.  While theory might indicate every body would benefit from premium balls, the fact is that for the vast majority of people, it just doesn’t make any difference.  Their game is so stochastic that differences in equipment that might spell win or lose for a pro have an undectable and certainly undefinable effect on their score.

 

The real problem with the distance game, possibly intuited rather than consciously appreciated by the ruling bodies, is that it returns and reintroduces into the game of the most hilly skilled golfers the high degree of randomness which is always present in the game of incompetent players.

[James the Hogan Fan]

On 5/20/2024 at 9:33 PM, Titleist99 said:

I love this stat right here. The number one player in the game is 80th on this list.

 

Take the top twenty on this list and you don't see many prolific winners. That tells me that instead of the driving range players should be honing their wedge and short game.

 

Bomb and gouge will get you a quick trip back to the Korn Ferry Tour.🤣 IMO

 

He is still within 3% of the top 10 in pure yardage... heck the worst guy on that list is inside 20%...

[Ashley Schaeffer]

10 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

The funny thing is people want to dismiss as anecdotal the experience of some tour pros even though that experience tells them the exact same thing the equipment manufacturers tell us and with which the data is at least consistent.

 

That is, that drivers are constantly becoming more “forgiving” and attuned to optimal use.

 

My look at the data says there was a big bump 20 years ago and since then the pro have been able either to adapt to the the current state and/or utilize whatever improvements have been made since and get longer, while normal golfers are pretty much stuck where they were 20 years ago.

 

The basic principle is that good golfers can make use of whatever improvements are made in equipment while poor golfers cannot.  While theory might indicate every body would benefit from premium balls, the fact is that for the vast majority of people, it just doesn’t make any difference.  Their game is so stochastic that differences in equipment that might spell win or lose for a pro have an undectable and certainly undefinable effect on their score.

 

The real problem with the distance game, possibly intuited rather than consciously appreciated by the ruling bodies, is that it returns and reintroduces into the game of the most hilly skilled golfers the high degree of randomness which is always present in the game of incompetent players.

 

Totally.  So, why not swing harder if you don't like how younger guys can with impunity? 

[Golfnutgalen]

51 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

He should just swing harder. He says there's no penalty for doing so, so do it. 

 

What makes you think he isn't? You seem to be arguing in bad faith.

 

Nobody said the drivers today are automatic, but they are certainly easier to hit than before I don't think that's even debatable. I have a 975 D, a Nike Covert, and a modern driver. The difference in forgiveness is absolutely absurd one generation to the next. Now a pro will have better results I'm sure, but it is a myth that they all hit the sweet spot every time so those heel and toe shots are going to be significantly more penalized. 

Edited May 22 by Golfnutgalen

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

That is Tony finau’s truth based on his abilities to manage path and club face.  Data would show other players are able to swing faster, hit the ball farther, and hit the ball more accurately than Tony.  
 

  
 

 

 

And yet most of this players are barely hitting it with more ball speed than Tony. 185 which is 2mph faster than Tony is the sweet spot so could they hit it farther yes if they wanted. Would it be straighter, possibly but they don’t think so and that going faster is more detrimental than helpful.

 

Cam champ is leading the ball speed category and is 163rd in accuracy percentage. Wonder what his accuracy would be like if he dropped his speed a bit.