How much will an iron fitting help if I'm currently using clubs not meant for my skill level or swing speed?

[Jbosillo]

18 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

 

First of all, your irons are part of TM's RSi family that came out in fall 2015. The RSiTP was a players cavity iron, the RSi2 a Game Improvement, and RSi1 a GI/SGI offering. RSi2 are not Players irons, according to an independent reviewer of the three models. With your clubhead speed, the only point would be you might do better with stiff shafts; a fitting could give you a better idea. 

 

The GD Hot List, however, rated RSi1 as GI, and both RSi2 and RSiTP as Players irons. A difference of opinion between raters!

 

If you are inconsistent, take a tune-up lesson to stabilize your swing.  Next, a fitting can help you tease out equipment that doesn't fit your swing. If your iron shafts are too short for you, or the lie angle wrong, this would contribute to your inconsistency.

 

A good fitter will have you hit your current clubs to establish a swing baseline. Then, the fitter will look for equipment adjustments to help you out. After that, it's up to  you to learn, practice and improve.

 

Remember, golf is a cyborg activity. Golfer swing + golf club merge efforts to move the ball efficiently.

 

Yeah most of the reviews I found had them as ideal for mid-low handicap players, while the RSi1 were the GI irons made for mid-high handicappers like myself.  Everyone in here seems to be in agreement that the difference between the two clubs is not dramatic enough to really affect my scores, which still seems odd to me.  Why have clubs built for different skill sets, if anyone can use those clubs and score exactly the same?  

[Stuart_G]

26 minutes ago, Jbosillo said:

 

 Why have clubs built for different skill sets, if anyone can use those clubs and score exactly the same?  

 

Because it's not really entirely about the skill set of the player.   Those models have different visuals - they look different at address - typically offset and topline thickness.  And different people have different preferences for those visual aspects of the head - and how well those preferences are met can influence the players confidence in the club.   And considering how much of a head game golf is, that can have a big potential to effect the results for some people.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Ger21]

47 minutes ago, Jbosillo said:

Why have clubs built for different skill sets, if anyone can use those clubs and score exactly the same?  

To sell more clubs.

At one point, every manufacturer sold blades, and nothing else. Then someone else started selling clubs they claimed were more forgiving. And the race was on. More forgiving, more distance. People wanted to have the latest and greatest, and as long as they keep buying clubs, manufacturer's will keep making clubs they claim go farther and straighter.

[Jbosillo]

Bump for new information: I used a friend's Mevo flightscope a few times in the past and decided to look back at that data.  Found some very interesting information on my irons...  See below for the averages for Club/Swing Speed/Carry/Smash Factor/RPM/Launch Angle and then my best session with that club.

 

PW/85mph/118yds/1.10/7300rpm/26deg (Max:86mph/131yds/1.18)

9i/86.5mph/137yds/1.18/6500rpm/21deg (Max:87mph/143yds/1.23)

7i/90.6mph/152yds/1.21/5200rpm/16deg (Max:93mph/166yds/1.27)

Driver is unrelated, but shows that I could still get normal numbers

Driver/105mph/243yds/1.44

 

It looks like the smash factor on my irons are all about .10-.20 lower than what they should be, meaning I am probably losing out on 20 yards or so with my clubs. This was probably 7 sessions over the course of 2 years, but I was mainly focused on figuring out my driver at that point, hence why I kind of just disregarded these numbers.  Those avgs above probably include about 20 swings each, with range balls, from those irons.  Does this change anyone's opinion on whether these irons/shafts may not be the best fit for me?  Or would numbers this bad come down to a swing flaw?  I am trying to find time to get into a simulator but having a newborn is really making that difficult, so figured I would try to work with what I have.

[Stuart_G]

25 minutes ago, Jbosillo said:

 

It looks like the smash factor on my irons are all about .10-.20 lower than what they should be, meaning I am probably losing out on 20 yards or so with my clubs/

 

 

 

Don't overly obsess with iron smash factors.  There is no "should be" in terms of what you get.

 

The smash can go up and down because of dynamic loft changes.   More dynamic loft means lower smash.  And there is no right or wrong amount of dynamic loft - and therefore no right/wrong or ideal or optimal smash factor.    Some people can actually do better with higher launch (and lower smash) as it can help with holding greens.  So loosing some smash because of dynamic loft changes may not be a big deal.   Sure if you can lower the dynamic loft, you might be able to get more distance - but usually at the cost of loosing holding power on the greens.  Nothing is free here.   Iron fitting is not about optimizing distance - but balancing distance vs the ability to hold greens.   Or another way to look at it is distance vs distance control (roll out control).

 

What you do want to focus on is the face impact location and consistency.   If you're loosing smash factor because of poor impact, than that certainly is an issue that needs to be addressed with swing or equipment changes.

 

So just don't jump to the wrong conclusions just based on the smash numbers.  By themselves, they are not helpful.  Make sure you understand why you're getting those smash numbers before making any decision on changes.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Jbosillo]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Don't overly obsess with iron smash factors.  There is no "should be" in terms of what you get.

 

The smash can go up and down because of dynamic loft changes.   More dynamic loft means lower smash.  And there is no right or wrong amount of dynamic loft - and therefore no right/wrong or ideal or optimal smash factor.    Some people can actually do better with higher launch (and lower smash) as it can help with holding greens.  So loosing some smash because of dynamic loft changes may not be a big deal.   Sure if you can lower the dynamic loft, you might be able to get more distance - but usually at the cost of loosing holding power on the greens.  Nothing is free here.   Iron fitting is not about optimizing distance - but balancing distance vs the ability to hold greens.   Or another way to look at it is distance vs distance control (roll out control).

 

What you do want to focus on is the face impact location and consistency.   If you're loosing smash factor because of poor impact, than that certainly is an issue that needs to be addressed with swing or equipment changes.

 

So just don't jump to the wrong conclusions just based on the smash numbers.  By themselves, they are not helpful.  Make sure you understand why you're getting those smash numbers before making any decision on changes.

 

 

 

I get with what you are saying about not obsessing strictly over the smash factors, but why would I not want those extra 15-20 yards from each club?  The launch angles and spin rates all seem fine to me, but I am having to swing 1-1.5 longer club to reach the same distance.  I would much rather be using a 7 than a 6 to carry 170yds over water, or an easy PW over a forced 9 on a shorter par 3.  Considering 90%+ people get more accurate the shorter the club, why not use that advantage if I can gain it with the correct shaft/club?  In the end, my main question is "Could the regular flex shaft be so mismatched with my swing speed, that it is causing me to lose distance?"  The answer could easily be "no" but I am just trying to piece everything together with my lack of time to go to a fitter, just curious because they were so noticeably low.

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

It depends....are you working on swing changes?

 

A good fitter would say, "I can fit clubs to your current swing, OR if you want to fix swing flaws I'll fit you after swing changes", because fitting 'current' swing may not fit an 'improved' swing down the road.

[Jbosillo]

1 hour ago, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

It depends....are you working on swing changes?

 

A good fitter would say, "I can fit clubs to your current swing, OR if you want to fix swing flaws I'll fit you after swing changes", because fitting 'current' swing may not fit an 'improved' swing down the road.

 

I am pretty happy with my iron swing and have no plans on changing it (just trying to practice more and get more consistent).  Only swing changes for me are with the driver.

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

 

I get with what you are saying about not obsessing strictly over the smash factors, but why would I not want those extra 15-20 yards from each club? 

 

First of all, I think that's a bit of an over estimate but regardless, it's a legitimate question. 

 

And keep in mind, I wasn't making any specific judgement about your particular numbers being good bad or anything else.  Only really your assumption that there is some type of ideal or optimal smash factor you should be getting or targeting.

 

But back to the answer.  Because:

1) One possible reason is that more distance doesn't help if you can't hold the green and it runs off the back.  If you gain distance, you'll loose some other aspect of the ball fight performance.    The same reason many high level tour players like to hit high trajectory iron shots.

 

2) Another is that it's not common (although not impossible) to get significant changes in dynamic loft from just an equipment change.  That's more typically a swing issue, not an equipment one.  More common expectations might be maybe ~1/2 of your iron distance gaps.   So getting more typically means needing to change your swing.  And that means putting a lot of work into changing your swing - and not everyone has the time (or discipline) to do that.

 

3) Even if one can get it with an equipment change, there is a lot of potential for loosing some other aspect of the performance - like consistency, dispersion accuracy, shot shape control.

 

Of course the only way to find out is to give certain changes a try and see what happens - and there is never anything wrong with trying different things.

 

 

5 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

In the end, my main question is "Could the regular flex shaft be so mismatched with my swing speed, that it is causing me to lose distance?"  The answer could easily be "no" but I am just trying to piece everything together with my lack of time to go to a fitter, just curious because they were so noticeably low.

 

If we were robots, then the answer would be unlikely.   Shaft stiffness alone doesn't typically have that much of a direct influence on the ball flight results.   Not nearly as much as the shaft OEM manufacturing is trying to tell us.   For some (depending on mechanics) it could actually have zero influence.

 

But we're not robots and changes in feel can potentially influence changes in the swing in a wide variety of ways.   And it's strictly speaking not a mis-match between your shaft and your swing speed - but rather a mis-match between how much the shaft loads vs how much you might utilize that feeling to control your swing (typically a sub-conscious influence).

 

Now, what influences it might have for you and whether those influences are good or bad (or both) is something only testing might determine.   That's the whole point of a (real) fitting is to determine what aspects of the equipment does influence your swing and your results - and using those results to find the best match.

 

And to throw some more mud into the issue,  it's actually shaft weight and swing weight (really head weight) that are much more likely to influence rhythm, tempo, release and other swing timing control - and therefore the dynamic loft delivered than the shaft stiffness.  So if there really is an equipment problem, that's the first place you should be looking, not the shaft stiffness.

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Stuart_G