Struggling with pulls

[dfeldss]

15 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

 

I did get a lesson a few weeks ago but I didn’t like the guy at all. He told me to set the wrists in the takeaway then just hold them completely stiff until the finish. Completely hold-off releasing the club and just deliver it solely through body rotation. The result was by the end of the lesson I could barely hit the ball. Naturally his suggestion was a course of 6 lessons to fix the swing he’d just broken.

 

When you look at the pros it’s abundantly obvious that they do release it because they all have their lead wrist in extension nearly immediately after impact. Will not be going back to him.

Needless to say, I swiftly disregarded everything he said and revisited what I had read here and I started to improve again.

 

I’m definitely striking the ball the best I ever have now but face control remains a big issue.

 

I really feel if I could just learn to square the face ever so slightly more without altering the path, my handicap would come flying down. The problem I so often encounter is I’m hitting these push-fades and then my attempts to square it more not only square the face but also pull the path. This gives me a really nasty 2-sided miss.

 

That's fine if you disagree with his philosophy, but I would also strongly suggest to not give up on something because you're not immediately hitting it better.

 

I think we all struggle with it at times, but your body is used to making compensations to make contact with the ball swinging the way you swing, so if you're making drastic changes, it's not going to be smooth sailing right out of the gate. It's tough to stomach, but a lot of times it gets worse before it gets better. That's why i think when making big changes like this, it can be valuable to have an instructor in person saying "hey, you're on the right track. I don't care how you're hitting it right now."

 

I'm no swing coach though so I guess take it with a grain of salt. Just my two cents

[Luckydutch]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:45 PM, dfeldss said:

 

That's fine if you disagree with his philosophy, but I would also strongly suggest to not give up on something because you're not immediately hitting it better.

 

I think we all struggle with it at times, but your body is used to making compensations to make contact with the ball swinging the way you swing, so if you're making drastic changes, it's not going to be smooth sailing right out of the gate. It's tough to stomach, but a lot of times it gets worse before it gets better. That's why i think when making big changes like this, it can be valuable to have an instructor in person saying "hey, you're on the right track. I don't care how you're hitting it right now."

 

I'm no swing coach though so I guess take it with a grain of salt. Just my two cents

 

For sure, a change can feel worse before it feels better. I just didn't like the philosophy of no release. Maybe it can work for some people but I like to have a natural release of the club, especially with driver.

 

I feel like I've managed to get back to where I was before the lesson now and am mostly hitting it good. The miss is still a pull or hook but contact is generally pretty great now.

 

The other thing the instructor pointed-out to me is that I have a very flat backswing which is true. He didn't really explain how to make it less flat, though. Do I literally just lift the arms off my chest more in the backswing? Presumably I need to then drop them by an equal amount in the downswing?

 

Included two good and one bad swing for context.

 

 

 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Luckydutch said:

 

For sure, a change can feel worse before it feels better. I just didn't like the philosophy of no release. Maybe it can work for some people but I like to have a natural release of the club, especially with driver.

 

I feel like I've managed to get back to where I was before the lesson now and am mostly hitting it good. The miss is still a pull or hook but contact is generally pretty great now.

 

The other thing the instructor pointed-out to me is that I have a very flat backswing which is true. He didn't really explain how to make it less flat, though. Do I literally just lift the arms off my chest more in the backswing? Presumably I need to then drop them by an equal amount in the downswing?

 

Included two good and one bad swing for context.

 

 

 

 

 

All you did was revert back to how your swing was during the thread.

 

The drill from Monte posted on page one is a good one to help.

 

 

 

[Luckydutch]

5 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

All you did was revert back to how your swing was during the thread.

 

The drill from Monte posted on page one is a good one to help.

 

 

 

 

Is it the same? I’m getting my sternum over the ball now without sliding the hips. My p6 shaft parallel position has my hand in front of my trail thigh and about 70-90 degrees angle between shaft and hands at that point. Both quite radically different to the start of the thread.

 

One thing that is for sure the same is my big miss is left but now it’s more of a hook or pull draw than a straight pull.

 

Whats the fault you’re seeing that lead you to share those videos? The flat backswing?

 

I’ve tried some of the takeaway drills and they’re interesting but I need to know what it is I’m trying to stop doing/do more when doing those drills.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Luckydutch said:

 

Is it the same? I’m getting my sternum over the ball now without sliding the hips. My p6 shaft parallel position has my hand in front of my trail thigh and about 70-90 degrees angle between shaft and hands at that point. Both quite radically different to the start of the thread.

 

One thing that is for sure the same is my big miss is left but now it’s more of a hook or pull draw than a straight pull.

 

Whats the fault you’re seeing that lead you to share those videos? The flat backswing?

 

I’ve tried some of the takeaway drills and they’re interesting but I need to know what it is I’m trying to stop doing/do more when doing those drills.

You are getting the club inside, folding the right arm and over running the arms, leading to a flat bacskwing, the samething your instructor pointed out. The drills are to fix your takeaway and backswing. 
 

 

 

[Luckydutch]

9 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

You are getting the club inside, folding the right arm and over running the arms, leading to a flat bacskwing, the samething your instructor pointed out. The drills are to fix your takeaway and backswing. 
 

 

 

 

 

I get you. The drills were interesting, actually.

 

It's a WILDLY different feel compared to what I'm used to. I normally feel the backswing much more through my trail hand and the back of my palm moving away from the ball. This feels much more through my lead hand knuckles. In the backswing the knuckles push away from me and up over my shoulder. Then in the downswing the knuckles drive down towards the floor and only once they're pointing at the floor do I feel my right hand take over to sweep the ball.

 

Will need to see what it translates to when actually hitting a ball but does the backswing at least look correct? Or closer to it?

 

 

 

 

 

[Luckydutch]

OK for absolute sure that takeaway change is an improvement.

 

At first I was leaking them a bit out to the right but then I strengthened the grip a bit and it started to click. Works on all clubs, even the problematic driver! Thanks @GoGoErky

 

 

 

 

 

 

These are all kind of 'steady' swings and I could definitely use my lower body better but I'm going to let these new feels engrain a bit now before going back to lower body or trying to really hit it hard.

[slytown]

I think these threads of yours have been wayyyyy to complicated and technical. There is one fundamental issue that is causing you problems and its a simple one: you still continue to start the downswing by sliding your hips forward. Until you get rid of this, everything else is inconsequential. You will always be stuck and have to flip the club at impact to make good contact. All I would ask you to do is stay on your right side in the downswing. You keep forcing your hips forward, which puts everything else out of whack. You have no chance to rotate from that position.

 

Rory does a great job here explaining how to get more rotation and speed but it will help you get the idea of how to stop sliding your hips forward. Again, THIS IS THE ONLY THING YOU SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON, in my opinion. It should feel like you are hitting a big slice or a fade. Since your miss is a pull hook, you need to get that club and your arms more in front of you on the downswing and working left. Staying on your right side in transition will help you with that. A SLICE IS GOOD FOR YOU.

 

 

[Valtiel]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:38 AM, Luckydutch said:

OK for absolute sure that takeaway change is an improvement.

 

At first I was leaking them a bit out to the right but then I strengthened the grip a bit and it started to click. Works on all clubs, even the problematic driver! Thanks @GoGoErky

 

 

 

 

 

These are all kind of 'steady' swings and I could definitely use my lower body better but I'm going to let these new feels engrain a bit now before going back to lower body or trying to really hit it hard.

These are definitely much more neutral and manageable looking swings that I would absolutely use as a baseline. Little 5y draws and fades with irons won't hurt you on the course and you're swinging way more "within" yourself here. You're likely still loading back too much and losing some angles on the downswing due to a bit of early extension, but you can see how much easier that is to manage when you aren't trying to kill the ball. Lots of pros play this way (smooth swings + minor EE). 

This has been one of the main issues going back to your earliest threads; you have really fast hips but have consistently struggled with sequencing them correctly with everything else. Looking at the numbers on screen it doesn't even look like you're giving up any distance with these "steady" swings. Your driver carried 270y here and I recall earlier "hard" swings that carried around 250y with far worse looking misses and obviously strike quality issues. I would strongly encourage keeping this "steady" approach for awhile and not trying to ramp up to harder swings thinking that is some sort of goal. Many a tour pro has gone through the process of "dialing back" to get better/more consistent. More effort often does not equal more speed and very often DOES equal worse consistency.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Valtiel

[Luckydutch]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:56 PM, Valtiel said:

These are definitely much more neutral and manageable looking swings that I would absolutely use as a baseline. Little 5y draws and fades with irons won't hurt you on the course and you're swinging way more "within" yourself here. You're likely still loading back too much and losing some angles on the downswing due to a bit of early extension, but you can see how much easier that is to manage when you aren't trying to kill the ball. Lots of pros play this way (smooth swings + minor EE). 

This has been one of the main issues going back to your earliest threads; you have really fast hips but have consistently struggled with sequencing them correctly with everything else. Looking at the numbers on screen it doesn't even look like you're giving up any distance with these "steady" swings. Your driver carried 270y here and I recall earlier "hard" swings that carried around 250y with far worse looking misses and obviously strike quality issues. I would strongly encourage keeping this "steady" approach for awhile and not trying to ramp up to harder swings thinking that is some sort of goal. Many a tour pro has gone through the process of "dialing back" to get better/more consistent. More effort often does not equal more speed and very often DOES equal worse consistency.

 

 

Thank you and I do agree. Your tips and the tips of others have helped me to gain a lot more consistency of strike. I've seen a small improvement in my scoring but only very small and tbh I feel like most of the actual stroke gains have come inside 100 yards. That consistency of strike is paying dividends with pitching and chipping where face control is less punishing. I'm scoring mid-20s most rounds and the reason is penalties.

 

What was interesting is on my last round I noted down every swing and what the result was. I thought my miss is a pull and in a way it is but I only actually hit 7 bad pulls all round. They were nasty and 4 of them resulted in penalties. However, I hit 15 leaky push-fades and what's also interesting is the pulls almost always came immediately after a particularly frustrating, weak push-fade.

 

So, I actually think my main miss is a push-fade and the pull is a reaction to it. I'm trying (consciously or sub-consciously) to square the face up more and my attempts to do that also pull the path left too.

 

This sequence absolutely sums-up my game at the minute:

 

 

 

 

The pull wasn't a particular bad one but they can be much worse. It also makes it really hard to judge distances when one miss will be short of the green and the other will sail straight over it. It's like 30+ yard distance dispersion with a PW!

 

I really feel like if I can learn to square-up the face without messing with the path, the pull will also miraculously disappear and my scores will come down.

[BraxtonFullerton]

Just from watching in real-time of this last post, I still think you're slightly out-to-in on your path. When you properly shut the club face, you're hitting these pulls; when you over-compensate you hit pull-hooks and bring penalties into play. Meanwhile, a "normal" feeling swing is you leaving the clubface open to your path and resulting in your push/fade.

 

The only thing that was in my head watching you swing (before looking at results) was it looks like you're still just crowding the ball too much. Give yourself an extra inch of space or so and see how you do, my guess is it's going to eliminate the fade an you'll only be hitting pulls/hooks.

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

 

 

Thank you and I do agree. Your tips and the tips of others have helped me to gain a lot more consistency of strike. I've seen a small improvement in my scoring but only very small and tbh I feel like most of the actual stroke gains have come inside 100 yards. That consistency of strike is paying dividends with pitching and chipping where face control is less punishing. I'm scoring mid-20s most rounds and the reason is penalties.

 

What was interesting is on my last round I noted down every swing and what the result was. I thought my miss is a pull and in a way it is but I only actually hit 7 bad pulls all round. They were nasty and 4 of them resulted in penalties. However, I hit 15 leaky push-fades and what's also interesting is the pulls almost always came immediately after a particularly frustrating, weak push-fade.

 

So, I actually think my main miss is a push-fade and the pull is a reaction to it. I'm trying (consciously or sub-consciously) to square the face up more and my attempts to do that also pull the path left too.

 

This sequence absolutely sums-up my game at the minute:

 

 

 

 

The pull wasn't a particular bad one but they can be much worse. It also makes it really hard to judge distances when one miss will be short of the green and the other will sail straight over it. It's like 30+ yard distance dispersion with a PW!

 

I really feel like if I can learn to square-up the face without messing with the path, the pull will also miraculously disappear and my scores will come down.

Your hips are moving the opposite of what they should be especially in the downswing where the right hip is moving towards the ball causing you to get stuck. Lots of pushes and push fades from there followed by the pulls/hooks you talk about as compensating for after the push