Speed with Arms and Body or?

[GGTTH]

Just thought it would be good to get peoples views on this which came up in a chat with a friend yesterday.

 

They said that they swing faster with their arms than their body so they always feel like they swing with the arms. They said that if they swing with their body rather than feeling the arms, the ball doesn't go as far.

 

Why would this be? 

[BigBlue7]

3 minutes ago, GGTTH said:

Just thought it would be good to get peoples views on this which came up in a chat with a friend yesterday.

 

They said that they swing faster with their arms than their body so they always feel like they swing with the arms. They said that if they swing with their body rather than feeling the arms, the ball doesn't go as far.

 

Why would this be? 

 

Could be a case of "Feel vs Real"

 

Without seeing his swing or anything like that, I would assume that his overall sequencing is better when he THINKS he leading the swing with his arms.  In reality, his body is doing most of the work.

Now if we are to see a video and determine that he is indeed swinging it faster with an "arms" swing, it would be simply because his "body swing" has zero timing and the sequencing is so far off that it it ends up being a hinderance to his speed.

[Liveonce]

Hands and arms have much more room to travel compared to the lower body. Outside horse vs inside horse on a Racetrac 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Liveonce said:

Hands and arms have much more room to travel compared to the lower body. Outside horse vs inside horse on a Racetrac 

 

Counter-point (not picking this side, just playing devil's advocate): the inside horse in a race doesn't actually move the outside horse, but the chest turning DOES move the arms even if they're doing almost nothing.

 

The arms move very little in the golf swing:

• the trail elbow bends 70-90° and back to 15° or so
• the lead arm moves 20° or so across the chest and back
• the wrists hinge ~60°
• the shoulders elevate the arms some (and much of that is done with the first bullet point)

The arms don't do a ton in the golf swing. The guy I taught yesterday, his feel was that the hands moved "six inches" in total. The body did the rest.

[phizzy30]

Power/distance comes more so from the body.  Mainly core, hips and legs.  I like to think of the arms going along for the ride. 

[Zitlow]

54 minutes ago, Liveonce said:

Hands and arms have much more room to travel compared to the lower body. Outside horse vs inside horse on a Racetrac 

The right arm and hand unfold catching the club up with the left arm at impact. 

[GGTTH]

7 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Power/distance comes more so from the body.  Mainly core, hips and legs.  I like to think of the arms going along for the ride. 

 

He says this is not the case for him. He has more arm speed (feeling like he's using his arms) than body speed (not feeling like he's using his arms). 

 

 

[ram01002]

per usual, there are different schools of thought here. Mike Bender is a big proponent of "feeling" like the arms are purposefully moving quickly in the downswing 

[GungHoGolf]

I like to feel the arms move quickly down, but not around - the around part is done by the torso rotation, while the up and down part is done by the arms (mostly the trail elbow bending).

[Zitlow]

Power comes from the synchronization and coordination of the 12 major joints working together in the proper sequence.

 

In other words use your whole body as a power source. Feet, legs, hips, shoulders, arms, hands and everything in between. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

Power/distance comes more so from the body.  Mainly core, hips and legs.  I like to think of the arms going along for the ride. 

Incorrect, that’s a myth.   It’s been measured.  LPGA players move the hips and core faster on average.  Better players and longer hitters move the arms and hands earlier and fastest. 

 

To answer the OP. Proper sequencing is what produces club head speed and since well over 90% of ams sequence their arms late, THE FEEL of swinging with the arms improves sequencing.  

Edited May 31, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[phizzy30]

Just now, MonteScheinblum said:

Incorrect, that’s a myth.   It’s been measured.  LPGA players move the hips and core faster on average.  Better players and longer hitters move the arms and hands earlier and fastest. 

 

To answer the OP. Proper sequencing is what produces club head speed and since well over 90% of ams sequence their arms late, THE FEEL of swinging with the arms improves sequencing.  

Are you saying more of a cast move from the top? 

[jholz]

25 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Incorrect, that’s a myth.   It’s been measured.  LPGA players move the hips and core faster on average.  Better players and longer hitters move the arms and hands earlier and fastest. 

 

To answer the OP. Proper sequencing is what produces club head speed and since well over 90% of ams sequence their arms late, THE FEEL of swinging with the arms improves sequencing.  

 

I've been thinking about this one for several weeks now. I still have a tendency to drag the ball to the left (right-handed player) and the usual culprits/fixes aren't working.

 

Gotta think I'm getting stuck and sequencing has to be part of the issue. Still hitting the ball well - just ending up a foot into the left side rough waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

 

I'm highly motivated to get this little wrinkle figured out. Been focusing a bit more on my lead arm and hand to clean up ballstriking a bit...probably need to get the trail arm a bit more active as well?

 

Good lord, this game...

[MonteScheinblum]

16 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Are you saying more of a cast move from the top? 

Not necessarily.  That’s good for certain problems.  The lead arm is only supposed to trail the thorax by .01 seconds.  An active motor movement is around .25 seconds.  So when you actively lead with the body over oodles of reps, .01 is now greater and why so many golfers get better and faster “feeling” like they move the arms earlier and faster.  It’s why people have always accused me of teaching and arm swing.  I like a body driven swing as much as the next guy, what a hate is a swing that’s the body overwhelms the arms.

[RoyalMustang]

A big weakness of mine is not "turning" and getting set up for the whip effect. I think of seeing Mike Trout hit a baseball: he is unwinding with his core and turning that potential energy into stored energy, while his hands are effectively a whip at the trailing edge of the swing. His hips are pointing at center field before he has even hit the ball. 

 

I can't generate that kind of power (almost nobody can-have you seen Trout hit a golf ball!) but when I am swinging well, I have the same whip action which suggests that my hands are there but they aren't actively moving toward the ball: the body is bringing the ball to my hands and club. It feels like they are hanging back. The difference on the range with a driver for me is literally 35 yards from the mostly arm swing that I am working away from. I had to gain a lot of flexibility though to be able to turn properly.

[RoyalMustang]

24 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

I've been thinking about this one for several weeks now. I still have a tendency to drag the ball to the left (right-handed player) and the usual culprits/fixes aren't working.

 

Gotta think I'm getting stuck and sequencing has to be part of the issue. Still hitting the ball well - just ending up a foot into the left side rough waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

 

I'm highly motivated to get this little wrinkle figured out. Been focusing a bit more on my lead arm and hand to clean up ballstriking a bit...probably need to get the trail arm a bit more active as well?

 

Good lord, this game...

 

when I feel good, I am "finishing" my swing as my hands are settling and hinging at the same time I am starting the move forward with my hips/torso. This ensures that the club settles and stays behind me, and that I swing through the ball, instead of at the ball. Get stuck at the top and you lose that moment where you properly load. If you think about a tennis swing, you will naturally settle, load and drive with your core while your racquet is still moving backwards, so that you have that same whip feel when it engages, but there is a point where you feel balanced and neutral. Same in a ski turn: hips are across the fall line while torso is working down to maintain balance and countering, getting ready for the next turn when the torso will again cross over the hips at the transition and continue to point down the fall line. There is always that moment of perfect countering balance and weightlessness if done right. . Ski coaches call this upper and lower body separation. 

[RoyalTroon]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

Power comes from the synchronization and coordination of the 12 major joints working together in the proper sequence.

 

In other words use your whole body as a power source. Feet, legs, hips, shoulders, arms, hands and everything in between. 

 

That about sums it up nicely for the thread and should finally get OP on the correct path for his question.  Good strikers know the hit comes from the body, from all of us doing their share, and the club simply strikes.    Lawson Little knew a little bit about this stuff too. 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

35 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

A big weakness of mine is not "turning" and getting set up for the whip effect. I think of seeing Mike Trout hit a baseball: he is unwinding with his core and turning that potential energy into stored energy, while his hands are effectively a whip at the trailing edge of the swing. His hips are pointing at center field before he has even hit the ball. 

 

I can't generate that kind of power (almost nobody can-have you seen Trout hit a golf ball!) but when I am swinging well, I have the same whip action which suggests that my hands are there but they aren't actively moving toward the ball: the body is bringing the ball to my hands and club. It feels like they are hanging back. The difference on the range with a driver for me is literally 35 yards from the mostly arm swing that I am working away from. I had to gain a lot of flexibility though to be able to turn properly.

Two issues.  What you’re saying is a feel and not reality and a baseball swing is a slice.  There’s a reason why pitchers are better golfers and it’s not because they only play once every 5 days.  Pitchers and QB’s stay closed and release the right wrist.  Hitters open early and keep the right hand under the bat.

 

Again, the overwhelming majority have arms trailing too much…and if I remember correctly, you fall into that category.  The whipping action you describe is felt by a lot of golfers.  That is almost always arms trialing, body stalls, arms take over and on good days, it feels great.

Edited May 31, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[Trippels]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Not necessarily.  That’s good for certain problems.  The lead arm is only supposed to trail the thorax by .01 seconds.  An active motor movement is around .25 seconds.  So when you actively lead with the body over oodles of reps, .01 is now greater and why so many golfers get better and faster “feeling” like they move the arms earlier and faster.  It’s why people have always accused me of teaching and arm swing.  I like a body driven swing as much as the next guy, what a hate is a swing that’s the body overwhelms the arms.

With regards to moving the arms earlier and faster. I know that's something both you and AMG advise strongly, but as far as I've seen there a small difference in how you and AMG see it. They're very big on the arms working almost solely up and down in relation to the torso (assuming a decent backswing ofc), and they don't want people to bring the arms towards the target line actively with the arms, just rotation as the arms lower.

But I know you often teach the feel of getting the arms to work down AND forward actively, somewhat independent of the rotation. So left arm off chest while staying closed.

Just wondered if you and AMG discussed that recently, and if there's some easy explanation.

[RoyalTroon]

55 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

...the body is bringing the ball to my hands and club.

 

This is really, really, really good, have yourself a beer!

[MonteScheinblum]

10 minutes ago, Trippels said:

With regards to moving the arms earlier and faster. I know that's something both you and AMG advise strongly, but as far as I've seen there a small difference in how you and AMG see it. They're very big on the arms working almost solely up and down in relation to the torso (assuming a decent backswing ofc), and they don't want people to bring the arms towards the target line actively with the arms, just rotation as the arms lower.

But I know you often teach the feel of getting the arms to work down AND forward actively, somewhat independent of the rotation. So left arm off chest while staying closed.

Just wondered if you and AMG discussed that recently, and if there's some easy explanation.

We actually discussed that very topic in context with my swing.  We do differ a little, just not as much as most would perceive.  As long as there is no early right tilt,  it’s going to be 6 of 1, half dozen of the other.  

[Trippels]

8 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

We actually discussed that very topic in context with my swing.  We do differ a little, just not as much as most would perceive.  As long as there is no early right tilt,  it’s going to be 6 of 1, half dozen of the other.  

So was the conclusion that as long as the students don't right tilt early, and don't get the arms behind, then it's a bit individual if it's arms only down, or down and forward, in relation to the torso?

Besides, the AMG guys seem to sometimes advise at least indirectly to get the arms working forward.

Like the rory drill, that feels like 80% down 20% forward with the arms to me

 

Will you share some of the analysis done on your swing at AMG in a video?

Edited May 31, 2023 by Trippels

[MonteScheinblum]

15 minutes ago, Trippels said:

So was the conclusion that as long as the students don't right tilt early, and don't get the arms behind, then it's a bit individual if it's arms only down, or down and forward, in relation to the torso?

Besides, the AMG guys seem to sometimes advise at least indirectly to get the arms working forward.

Like the rory drill, that feels like 80% down 20% forward with the arms to me

 

Will you share some of the analysis done on your swing at AMG in a video?

That about covers it.  The video we made had something wrong with it and we couldn’t post it.

 

Basically my pelvis was out of position and it forced me to cutoff my rib cage turn 

[jholz]

1 hour ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

when I feel good, I am "finishing" my swing as my hands are settling and hinging at the same time I am starting the move forward with my hips/torso. This ensures that the club settles and stays behind me, and that I swing through the ball, instead of at the ball. Get stuck at the top and you lose that moment where you properly load. If you think about a tennis swing, you will naturally settle, load and drive with your core while your racquet is still moving backwards, so that you have that same whip feel when it engages, but there is a point where you feel balanced and neutral. Same in a ski turn: hips are across the fall line while torso is working down to maintain balance and countering, getting ready for the next turn when the torso will again cross over the hips at the transition and continue to point down the fall line. There is always that moment of perfect countering balance and weightlessness if done right. . Ski coaches call this upper and lower body separation. 

 

Interesting stuff. Thank you.

 

I've honestly been working on this in my chipping. My recent focus on " the lead side/hand" has shown me both the necessity/utility of the loading process.

 

And, you may already know - but ski racing analogies are always going to get my interest. I feel what you are saying here. 

 

Appreciate it.

 

 

[Ironzol24]

I've always felt the fastest when everything feels in concert, without too much turn or hand movement starting the down swing