Shoving putts instead of rotating putter

[Peter_b]

@bladehunter Sure it can break looking for a decade now for a solution. I have three LAB putters here the Blad the DF 2.1 and that thinner Blad so I stopped caring about fully balanced putters. I get to the ball open as with any other putter, whatever toe hang or face balanced. 

Feelputting  is not working I would have to aim left of the cup that’s Lee Trevino style who by the way could not figure it out either. If I go to the course and feel putt I have 36 and more putts. Well maybe less as I fugured out distance control quite well in the last months watching a David Orr flic. 

I will try side saddle but I did not think its so hard to get a used one in Europe.

 

@jomatty

I will recheck face alignment but I doubt it’s the cause. If I am at the rail with the 3d printed guide and get just a bit away not to be guided. It’s the same. But will recheck. Thanks for feeling with me. 

 

What is weird is I feel spine inclination to the right by grabbing lower on the right. I will extend the right arm more and flex the left to make sure my spine is really straight. This could be an explanation and N°54679 I try. 

[Fuscinator]

A couple of other things you might consider...

 

Square your lead foot to the target, then open your trail foot with its heel on the same line as the heel of your lead foot. With more weight on your lead foot (you'd have to experiment with how much) and a more closed stance, you'd be less likely to encounter a double axis issue. (This is pretty much a guess, though.)

 

While you're experimenting with different grips, you might consider a round grip. I love my Edel grip by PURE. I think mine was only $15.

[Peter_b]

Ermagherd! Quite excited. I  corrected my spine tilt to the right which happens by forming the damn triangle while the right hand is lower. Spine has to adapt to that position. Almost unfeelable but the spine tilt is there maybe 5° i would guess. You can not do that too much extended/upright as you can not extend the right arm more. So the solution may be to have a much more flexed left arm and a much more straight right arm and forget the triangle. You feel your spine tilting to the left back to the center where it should be. Makes so much sense.

 

in the last 10 Years I never had the desired +-0.8 range and there it is, the first few putts I made, no practice.

 

Always thought I have the same problem as Rory. See here and look at his spine. He forms a nice triangle which has to tilt his pine right. He does not compensate somehow so he misses right. Watch carefully. 

 

 

 

Align to target but no one talks about aligning the spine. Never have I read or heard about it anywhere.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Peter_b

[Peter_b]

Just did a quick sweep through the net and no one talks about lateral spine tilt in putting as if it was of no consequence.

I will test this some more days until I can really confirm but it makes a lot of sense and could be the cause of a lot of on/off putting one day good the next bad. Even downhill and uphill putts can influence the day. Practice a lot of uphill putts and your day might be ruined. Downhill a lot on the practice green and your spine tilt may be fine on the round. And you dont even know why. 

[Peter_b]

And its gone, face open 1.5 again. Damn this was looking promising. Not sure if slapstick or tragedy. 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Peter_b

[ferrispgm]

Do something that not many do....film yourself putting...check alignment and lower body rotation.  Chances are that one or both are off slightly meaning hips rotate a bit and shoulders are open/closed. 

 

If you get the shoulders aligned and the hips to stop moving, you would be amazed at how hard you can release the putter without it going left.  I started off on long putts forcing it to to roll over and then doing the same on short putts which is harder because it's a smaller stroke.  Eventually you will get the feel of it.  To me it feel like the toe is closing at impact while the head overtakes the hands and gets ahead.

[Mike_C]

One thing I never see discussed is grip pressure, and what fingers you use when applying pressure. This also related to total weight and swingweight of your putter.   I find that for me, if I grip too much in the pinky and ring finger, my entire hand/wrist complex supinate.  If you are a feel putter and you squeeze your right hand with these fingers it will tend to open the putter face.  The opposite for the left hand, it will close the face.  I actually try to work on keeping the grip pressure constant and even and not let one hand over power the other in my grip, and if I do, the putter will rotate either open or closed.   

[Nard_S]

On 6/11/2023 at 8:33 AM, iacas said:

Have you tried… not opening it nearly as much in the backswing? Try to almost counter-roll it slightly. "Hood" the face a little in the backswing.

This and shoulder rock up & down, they do not rotate, they rock and for most part lead stays low. Chip, pitch, swing, they rotate, putt they rock. Huge difference that will straighten out putting and chipping.

[Nard_S]

double post

Edited June 12, 2023 by Nard_S

[Peter_b]

@ferrispgm That’s a good Idea. I did not as I thought I wont see anything but it is worth a try. We should develop a training suit with different colors of body parts to better see and maybe be anonymous if necessary. Like the Mike Austin skeleton swing video.

There is definitely a different feel when I shove and when I get the good numbers rotating I guess. I will stick to eliminating that spine tilt to the right by low right hand, as the numbers clearly showed negative numbers first time ever. There is something else that on/offs my putting. The spine was only keeping me in the positive face-angles.

 

@Mike_C Grip pressure. Abolutely, I was thinking that also when looking for what the hell is turning my face-angle from perfect to utter crap. I will experiment with this. It may be that if I vise my right hand high force  it may prevent rotation. That would be a very easy change.

 

@Nard_S Yes I got Iacas and I understand the shoulder girdles should move more vertically than horizontally. Not rocking horizontally. My question would be: should the thorax move with the girdles or stay put? What is better? I can do both and had good results with both, well until the unknown kill switch kicks in. Axys method  would be locked girdles to sternum and both moving but the sternum can just be kept to the impact position while the girdles rotate. The great face-angle numbers above I did not care and just concentrated on the untilted spine. 

 

btw I thank you all for throwing in so many ideas to the pile I did not think of. I hope others can also benefit.

[Peter_b]

A hundred putts later on the mat, hand pressure does not seem to make a difference at least its not an on/off switch got bad numbers with both supple and strong grip . 

 

Watching my right shoulder in peripheral vision, going only up not even slighly back (iacas nails forward/Nard_S rock not rotate shoulders) seems to be quite a guarantee of a square putterface. This even worked with long putts  (17 inch upswing 106 inch/sec) Will test this on tomorrow. If this sticks people should be careful about right spine tilt at adress as that would for sure promote a turn instead of a shoulder rock. At least that would be my conclusion. Exagerate the right tilt  and you can not rock at all.

 

This is getting somewhere.

 

@ferrispgm I mailed to Zeke the maker of Swing Profile if he can add putt recording as a feature. Watching the putt in replay mode after the putt has been automatically recorded and cut like it does with full shots , would be sick.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Peter_b

[Nard_S]

4 hours ago, Peter_b said:

My question would be: should the thorax move with the girdles or stay put? What is better? I can do both and had good results with both, well until the unknown kill switch kicks in.

I've never thought about it but I'm partial to just shoulder girdle.  The big change I made was use shoulder drop to lever back putter. A tilt of the triangle, to go back low & straight, while there's added deloft with CCW twist of lead fingers, then return holding shoulder low. It's pured up stroke quite a bit.  Path, face & speed are light years better.

[Peter_b]

2 hours ago, Nard_S said:

just shoulder girdle

 

I second that. I think its  not even possible to really rock shoulders with girdles fully connected to torso on second thought. 

 

2 hours ago, Nard_S said:

tilt of the triangle, to go back low & straight, while there's added deloft with CCW twist of lead fingers

 

Yes, and that’s a weird feeling you immediately get when putting on the rail with my 3D Print that wont let you rotate the putter clockwise. It feels so wrong and is so right. 
I think the most important thing to realise is, that the putter plane is not keeping the distance to your center/spine. It is a pizza slice and going away sideways not around you. While it does you can not rotate the putter and its head clockwise but keep its angle to the putter plane. Not a bad thought for the full swing also for people sucking the club in too deep.

 

 

Now this is the spine tilt that I would like to throw on the table. I am not sure why but I have the feeling that this is the cause people like to move the whole thing around them instead of away on the putter plane. That tilt for the head is already a CW turn related to the lower body. In my opinion this tilt keeps the putter face on the plus side at impact. I will check the rise angle without this tilt. It may be that the rock wont roll well if the dynamic loft gets above the rise angle and there is no topsin of the ball. So that tilt could make sure we hit upwards. Something to experiment with.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Peter_b

[Nard_S]

11 minutes ago, Peter_b said:

It feels so wrong and is so right. 
.................................................... It is a pizza slice and going away sideways not around you.

Yeah true & that's a great way to describe it.

 

14 minutes ago, Peter_b said:

So that tilt could make sure we hit upwards.

I passionately do not believe in "hitting upward", just saying. You will get a nice roll with proper approach angle and loft. It is critical to maintain a shaft lean disposition at impact. Chasing "upward" is throwing away a lot for that so called ideal. Dave Stockton school. Simple but really effective. His technique won me over. It's shaft lean at impact. Lead hand leads. Pizza slice going sideways is just that.

[Peter_b]

Now moving the putter on its pizz plane is a challenge. I am all over the place faceangle wise again never negative. Now I am on plane on the upswing now a degree above the plane should not be the problem. But why am I getting below the plane in in the downswing?

 

I will check shoulder alignment pull right shoulder a bit back but I doubt this will set the pizza slice straight. It’s the easiest explanation however.

 

 

 

I like to focus on some numbers but here is the full table maybe there is a pattern I don't see.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Peter_b

[Peter_b]

Who is the Tour Player that is briefly on in the video? He is amazingly on plane. now he moves his hands a bit like a ram in front view. I think Utley does that too and I wonder if this is very necessary.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Peter_b

[KMeloney]

3 hours ago, Peter_b said:

Who is the Tour Player that is briefly on in the video? He is amazingly on plane. now he moves his hands a bit like a ram in front view. I think Utley does that too and I wonder if this is very necessary.

 

 

 

Aaron Baddeley.

 

He's also really far from the ball, leaning over a lot a la Michelle Wie...

 

I've seen so many good putters putt nothing like one another (including the current Club Champ at my club who kind of does a short "chop" down on the ball). Are you looking for a way to simply eliminate a left miss, or for something else? So many ways to get it done.

[Peter_b]

@KMeloney I am looking for a way to eliminate a constant right miss. My path is left but the clubhead is rock solid open most of the time. So within +-0.8 is the goal here. Yeah there are really good putters who can do it by feel. Those people are to be envied. Very small portion. Most of us learn to pop the ball inside 6 feet where an open clubface of 1.5 can still sink the putt. But that’s not fun. At least if you know you have not the slightest chance over 6 feet.  

 

I am starting to think that it is impossible to move the putter like a pendulum around the pizza slice without hand manipulation if the putter end is not pointing to the exact turning point. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Peter_b

[KMeloney]

1 minute ago, Peter_b said:

I am looking for a way to eliminate a right miss. My path is left but the clubhead is rock solid open most of the time. So within +-0.8 is the goal here. Yeah there are really good putters who can do it by feel. Those people are to be envied. Very small portion. Most of us learn to pop the ball inside 6 feet where an open clubface of 1.5 can still sink the putt. But that’s not fun. At least if you know you have not the slightest chance over 6 feet.  

 

I am starting to think that it is impossible to move the putter like a pendulum around the pizza slice without hand manipulation if the putter end is not pointing to the exact turning point. 

 

Have you messed a lot with your distance from the ball? It seems to me that the putter is going to seek its straight-up-and-down condition. That is, if the ball is way far from you, then (per physics/anatomy) the putter is going to want to arc way inside. Inversely, if you set up to a ball very close to you where your hands are inside of your shoulders, then the putter is going to want to arc away from you or outside.

 

...Or have you already found that sweet spot, but can't deliver the face square at impact? (I've read this whole thread -- there's just a lot to take in. lol)

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, Peter_b said:

I am starting to think that it is impossible to move the putter like a pendulum around the pizza slice without hand manipulation

You add deloft by curling lead fingers a bit and crowning wrist slightly and maintaining that to impact. Like a full swing, accelerating into ball is key. Practice keeping handle ahead of head till after impact. Practice extending to keep head low to ground throughout. Practice dictating stroke with shoulders and always having soft forearms. Adding some flex in wrists gives dominant hand flick control too. This all sounds simple enough but it takes months to make it natural. It's a delegation of tasks, putting is hand/eye but it's better to simplify the hand responsibility. If you have a cut stroke, chances are you are applying to much hand dominance. 

[Peter_b]

@KMeloney I have not looked for that sweet spot as I did not think its relevant but yeah, it is. 

 

@Nard_S that sounds like a whole lot of manipulation. Will look into that. Still hope to find the magic simple knob that corrects a push putt. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Peter_b

[Nard_S]

9 minutes ago, Peter_b said:

 that sounds like a whole lot of manipulation. Will look into that. Still hope to find the magic simple knob that corrects a push putt. 

It's really the opposite, good luck, it takes months to solidify a change, so carry patience.

[Peter_b]

So I was not the first to think about this. Herbert wanted my reverse K Spine tilt.

 

 

 

 

On 5/6/2021 at 10:15 PM, hoganfan924 said:

Shoulder tilt and axis tilt (as in reverse K) are two very different things that can be controlled independently. 

 

Absolutely: the case is spine tilt right, shoulders open 

Mindgame:

Lets assume spine tilt to right (reverse K) fubars my putt stroke. I have an open putterface. There is a loop outside to in and the putter swings out to in by 3 degrees through impact. The putter rotates open more on the upswing than it closes and the difference in rotation is the amount of open clubface. 

So in other words  is it possible if you try to swing your putter on the putterplane at the targetline would a trail side spine tilt generate:

- a regular backswing on the plane but too much rotation (open)

- a 3° inside downswing with lesser rotation than in the upswing and an open face.

 

Possible? Compensation of the spine tilt with out to in loop? More rotation of Putter in upswing due to tilt? At least it sounds crazy but would not say impossible.

 

Oh and made a cheap line laser Attachment for the putter. Will upload it to Printables but its not perfect yet as a bit too loose. (Tabletop Laser from Amazon)

 

Not boring at all to mess with the Puttswing LOL

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Peter_b

[Peter_b]

OK so much for setup, seems like a dead end.

Back to upswing and Iacas "nails up". I have an idea how to quickly learn this. The 70° rail with the white rotation blocker will give an instant feel to what is right but you will learn nothing. You can not repeat it, You would need endless putts on the rail to ingrain as it just keeps you in track.

So the idea is learning it with the line Laser with closed eyes to the top of the swing and then look how you failed or not.

So starting from here ...

 

 

 

...this is how just relaxed shoulder turn looks, my natural feel putt if you like. That’s clearly wrong. Way to much rotation putterface left perpedicular to the plane. So my feelplay sucks. Well I knew that

 

 

And this is how it looks like if I do something else while my eyes are closed but I wont tell you what I do as I would like to have feedback on how you can keep the Laser on line. I am also not yet sure it’s the way on how to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter_b]

Not perfect but does the job.

https://www.printables.com/de/model/504997-laser-line-adapter-for-putter

[Peter_b]

@KMeloney After getting the nails up better with the laser I went to your advice looking for distance to the ball to find a sweat spot. The best distance is quite far away from me. Id say like Baddeley. To me it feels even more away eyes way inside the ball. Numbers get a lot  better. Has to hold up of course. I dont believe in single sessions but its promising. So your advice was great and I wonder how many puttings swings are getting wrecked by the advice to have eyes over the ball. Direction at transition and impact look fine also at that distance.

 

 

 

Edit: next session 15 minutes later, many working changes already break down 

Numbers still a dream come true for me.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Peter_b

[KMeloney]

Peter_b -- That's great! THE best putter I know insists that the eyes should be inside the ball as well. He's got a much more upright set-up, but keeps his eyes inside the ball, and he's just so good. Makes so many putts.

[Peter_b]

Not trying to get cheesy but it is hard to describe the happiness all of you in this thread gave me and I strongly hope this thread not only helps me. Putting really determined my daily mood. A big thank you to the strong believers of the "just feel putting community" for not derailing the thread, really appreciate it, as I know how much you guys hate it when someone gets the numbers out. Also to the side sadlers giving a way out, if there was no solution. 

 

I am still taking this with a grain of salt as there were so many solutions that did not hold up but this one is more  than promising. I just grabbed the putter with the Skypro five hours later and yeah I got some face open slightly over 1.0 but then remembered how to move the putter with the laser and the face angle is mostly sub 0.8 again. I will try to move the range more into minus as -0.8 to +0.8 is a much bigger range to to still hole it than -0.1 to 0.8.

The dynamic loft is higher than the rise so I will see how these balls roll. If they don't I will have my putter bent to 1°, not a fan of delofting in the swing.

 

 

 

 

So for others going the numbers path, I really recommend a rail that has your putters inclination. You also need a device that keeps the putter 90° to the rail aka the putter plane. 3D Model is in the thread. Enjoy the strange feeling of being on plane maybe the first time in your life. Get a cheap line laser and fix it to your putter, 3D Model is also in the thread and see if you can keep the laser on the  putting line with your putting method. 

The rail will force you on the line and give you the feel, while with the laser without rail it is free solo.

All advice in this thread is good. Best ones are to keep the thumbnails away from you as idea and to find the distance to the ball sweet spot ignoring where eyes over ball should be. Swinging up/down using the laser eyes closed makes sure you don't manipulate the laser on the line.

There was no discussion of ball position in stance but in my opinion the putter head needs to be at the lowest point in the arc under your fulcrum point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Peter_b

[KMeloney]

4 hours ago, Peter_b said:

There was no discussion of ball position in stance but in my opinion the putter head needs to be at the lowest point in the arc under your fulcrum point.

 

I think that's going to be part of your tuning process. Definitely mess with ball position to see what works best for you. You'll find that putting the ball forward or back more than you're used to will cause you to set up differently and therefore stroke the ball differently. But it sounds like you're already narrowing some things down, so that's good.

[Peter_b]

13 hours ago, Peter_b said:

I am still taking this with a grain of salt as there were so many solutions that did not hold up but this one is more  than promising.

 

And the same day the bomb goes off. The OFF switch literally. Did a Session in the evening after 10pm just to see if it still works and could not believe my eyes. Recalibrated the Skypro twice. Battery was low on the Iphone, even turned off during the session but that cant be the cause. Skypro was well charged. I was quite tired of course. I did literally nothing different to my knowledge, same setup same distance to the ball same shoulder turn focusing on the hands. I added the laser and the line was running OK but even with the laser I was unable to get the numbers sub 1.0 or negative and I did over 200 putts. Cant post numbers image as I tried so much to get it right while not changing the basics I learned in this thread.

So my conclusion is there is still something in my up- or downswing or transition that can kick in that will destroy any swing I make by opening the face. Would be so nice to find what it is. Time to record the swing but I doubt the cause will be visible.

Really surprised I have to write this.

 

Edit:

All fine again in the morning, not perfect but fine. No idea what happened and I am not aware of any measurement problem of the Skypro. Again did not change anything to yesterday night.

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Peter_b