Match Play Mess

[nsxguy]

36 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

How did team B not request they retee. Where does it say they can’t correct the error on the application of the penalty before the end of the hole? 

 

a) I quoted the original post so I don't understand your question (How did Team B not,,,,,,,).

 

b) Did you read rogolf's post where I bolded it ? Or do you not believe him (he's a Rules Official) ?

 

Rule 6.1, posted earlier on the thread tells us how to proceed in this exact situation. THAT tells you you can't just "correct the error" - or it would have said so.

 

In STROKE play you MUST correct such an error. In MATCH play such an agreement on how to proceed stands.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, RCGA said:

One last addition...

 

I was on Team B and (incorrectly) suggested the 3-off-the-tee rule not realizing there was a difference in rules between match play vs stroke play. I've been playing since 1999 and have never come across this situation before. 

 

 

Better late than never to learn that Stroke Play and Match Play have different Rules... as if that should not have been clear from the beginning...

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

b) Did you read rogolf's post where I bolded it ? Or do you not believe him (he's a Rules Official) ?

 

 

Oh my! I am a referee as well but you did not believe ME in that other thread of four-ball follies...

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

From my reading of the original post and the Rule, team B did not “request promptly”. Such request needs to be made before any player makes another stroke. 

[RCGA]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

From my reading of the original post and the Rule, team B did not “request promptly”. Such request needs to be made before any player makes another stroke. 

 

Team A hit their first ball and then was immediately notified. Team A hit again before Team B teed off. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, RCGA said:

 

Team A hit their first ball and then was immediately notified. Team A hit again before Team B teed off. 

Who played team A's next stroke? (sorry if that's been asked and answered).

[nsxguy]

On 6/24/2023 at 5:06 PM, RCGA said:

Playing alternate shot match play

 

Team A, Player 1 tees off first but plays outside the tee markers by mistake. Some confusion over what the rule is but Team A agree to hit 3 off the tee. 

 

Team B, Player 1 hits it in the bunker off the tee. Team B, Player 2 then hits it on the green. 

 

After all this, Team A then informs Team B of the "re-tee" rule where Team B can choose if Team A plays the original shot or re-tee without penalty. Team B asks to see where Team A's first shot is, but the ball has already been picked up. 

 

Give me a ruling 

 

3 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

Team A hit their first ball and then was immediately notified. Team A hit again before Team B teed off. 

 

Excuse me but you said "Team A, Player 1 tees off first but plays outside the tee markers by mistake. Some confusion over what the rule is but Team A agree to hit 3 off the tee."

 

Not sure about other posters, but all along this has said to ME that both teams discussed the situation, didn't know what the proper procedure was, and agreed Team A should be hitting 3.

 

So what exactly was Team A "notified" about ?

 

The "notified" portion of the rule discussed in this thread is referring to Team B "notifying" Team A that they were exercising their (Team B's) option to make Team A replay their first shot, with NO penalty, this time from within the teeing area.

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

From my reading of the original post and the Rule, team B did not “request promptly”. Such request needs to be made before any player makes another stroke. 

 

Indeed. Had they done that it would have been player 1 making the next stroke, not player 2. Thus team A is lying 3 with that 2nd ball somewhere on the course.

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

Team A hit their first ball and then was immediately notified. Team A hit again before Team B teed off. 

 

They were notified of what? That player 1 one had teed off outside the teeing area? The key here is that team A was not required to replay that stroke but all players were unaware how they should proceed and agreed  upon stroke&distance.

[Colin L]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

They were notified of what? That player 1 one had teed off outside the teeing area? The key here is that team A was not required to replay that stroke but all players were unaware how they should proceed and agreed  upon stroke&distance.

Just to be clear though about the stroke play penalty in case of misunderstanding (not on your part, of course).  Playing "3 off the tee" is used generally to mean stroke and distance, but although you are counting  your third shot when you play again after playing from outside the tee markers, that Is not stroke and distance.   S&D means that your drive counts, you get a one stroke penalty and are then playing your third shot from the tee/. Playing your third shot after starting  from outside the teeing area results from your first stroke being  cancelled and your having to re-take your teeshot with a two stroke penalty.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Colin L

[Colin L]

And another wee bit of clarification.  If you play from outside the teeing area in match play, it isn't a matter of your opponent requesting that you cancel the stroke: he has the right to cancel it.   I dare say a polite opponent will make it sound like a request, but cancelling is an action they are sanctioned to take. [6.1b(1).

Edited June 26, 2023 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, Colin L said:

And another wee bit of clarification.  If you play from outside the teeing area in match play, it isn't a matter of your opponent requesting that you cancel the stroke: he has the right to cancel it.   I dare say a polite opponent will make it sound like a request, but cancelling is an action they are sanctioned to take.

 

This brings to my mind the ruthless nature of match play. Many years ago I learned that if you hit your tee shot from outside the teeing area and you hit it OB and your opponent does not cancel the stroke you are not allowed to tee your next ball nor hit it from inside the teeing area. I am rather certain that this comes as a surprise to lots of players.

[sui generis]

20.1b Rules Issues in Match Play

(1) Deciding Issues by Agreement. During a round, the players in a match may agree how to decide a Rules issue:

The agreed outcome is conclusive even if it turns out to have been wrong under the Rules, so long as the players did not agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they knew applied (see Rule 1.3b(1)).

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This brings to my mind the ruthless nature of match play. Many years ago I learned that if you hit your tee shot from outside the teeing area and you hit it OB and your opponent does not cancel the stroke you are not allowed to tee your next ball nor hit it from inside the teeing area. I am rather certain that this comes as a surprise to lots of players.

I did not know this. Then how do you proceed? A drop at the point at which you hit the previous shot?

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I did not know this. Then how do you proceed? A drop at the point at which you hit the previous shot?

 

Yes.

[Colin L]

2 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

I did not know this. Then how do you proceed? A drop at the point at which you hit the previous shot?

The reason why the  answer was Yes is in the Definition of In Play:

 

A ball first becomes in play on a hole:

• When the player makes a stroke at it from inside the teeing area, or
• In match play, when the player makes a stroke at it from outside the teeing area and the opponent does not cancel the stroke under Rule 6.1b.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Colin L

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

I did not know this. Then how do you proceed? A drop at the point at which you hit the previous shot?

 

I didn't know this either but I can honestly say I don't remember ever encountering the situation.

 

But it does make sense if one thinks about it.

 

Logically (I know, I know ), since said 1st stroke starting the hole was made from outside the teeing area, and, as it was NOT canceled by the opponent, the S&D penalty would apply & the player would drop,,,,,,, as with any other S&D penalty.

 

And since the ball wasn't originally hit FROM the teeing area, the player can't benefit from the rules allowing a player to re-tee anywhere within the teeing area when his ball is to be played (again) from there.

 

Very interesting.

[IRon Wizard]

Question regarding match play:

What does W/O mean in the results?

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, IRon Wizard said:

Question regarding match play:

What does W/O mean in the results?

 

Walk Over. The other party gave up the match before having started it.