Match Play Mess

[RCGA]

Playing alternate shot match play

 

Team A, Player 1 tees off first but plays outside the tee markers by mistake. Some confusion over what the rule is but Team A agree to hit 3 off the tee. 

 

Team B, Player 1 hits it in the bunker off the tee. Team B, Player 2 then hits it on the green. 

 

After all this, Team A then informs Team B of the "re-tee" rule where Team B can choose if Team A plays the original shot or re-tee without penalty. Team B asks to see where Team A's first shot is, but the ball has already been picked up. 

 

Give me a ruling 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, RCGA said:

Playing alternate shot match play

 

Team A, Player 1 tees off first but plays outside the tee markers by mistake. Some confusion over what the rule is but Team A agree to hit 3 off the tee. 

 

Team B, Player 1 hits it in the bunker off the tee. Team B, Player 2 then hits it on the green. 

 

After all this, Team A then informs Team B of the "re-tee" rule where Team B can choose if Team A plays the original shot or re-tee without penalty. Team B asks to see where Team A's first shot is, but the ball has already been picked up. 

 

Give me a ruling 

 

I'll try. And leave it up to the others to correct me.

 

My first inclination is, since nobody knew the rule and both teams "agreed" (it IS match play) to have Team A re-tee and hit 3, the 2nd ball hit by Team A lies 3 and is Team A's ball in play and the original ball is irrelevant.

 

Player 2 on Team A is about to hit their 4th shot to the green.

Player 1 on Team B is putting for birdie.

 

That's my best guess.

 

 

 

 

 

[Colin L]

Which player in Side A put another ball in play from the tee?

[596]

 

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'll try. And leave it up to the others to correct me.

 

My first inclination is, since nobody knew the rule and both teams "agreed" (it IS match play) to have Team A re-tee and hit 3, the 2nd ball hit by Team A lies 3 and is Team A's ball in play and the original ball is irrelevant.

 

Player 2 on Team A is about to hit their 4th shot to the green.

Player 1 on Team B is putting for birdie.

 

That's my best guess.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll agree with this. 

[klebs01]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'll try. And leave it up to the others to correct me.

 

My first inclination is, since nobody knew the rule and both teams "agreed" (it IS match play) to have Team A re-tee and hit 3, the 2nd ball hit by Team A lies 3 and is Team A's ball in play and the original ball is irrelevant.

 

Player 2 on Team A is about to hit their 4th shot to the green.

Player 1 on Team B is putting for birdie.

 

That's my best guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

why would the second ball be lying 3 when there is no penalty for reteeing from the tee box at the opponents request? The team B thought there would be a penalty, they were wrong. Sucks for them. At that point ball 1 is out of play and is irrelevant. They don’t get to choose the worse of the two balls. 
 

team A is lying 1 hitting their second shot to the green. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by klebs01

[RCGA]

5 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

 

team A is lying 1 hitting their second shot to the green. 

 

Which they picked up

[klebs01]

Just now, RCGA said:

 

Which they picked up

Ball 1 was picked up, but is irrelevant. It was no longer in play when team B requested team A retee.  Ball 2 is in play. Ball 1 is ignored. The hole started when ball 2 was put into play at team B’s request. 

[clinkinfo]

41 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

Which they picked up

 

 

No, they picked up the first ball.

 

It's the second ball that has become their only ball at the request of the re-tee.  

 

 

....The 'good' news is that any strokes with the ball played from outside the teeing area or wrong tee do not count in your score for that hole. In match play, there is no penalty, but your opponent may immediately request that you cancel the stroke and play another ball from within the teeing area

[rogolf]

Rule 6.1 b(1) says that cancelling the stroke must be done "promptly" and before either player makes another stroke (imo, "either player" means the player or the opponent).

When the sides agree on the ruling and player 2 from side 1 plays under stroke and distance from the tee, that is their ball in play.  The first ball that side played is no longer available to be played and there are no choices to be made.

BTW, a "side" is different than a "team".  On a "side", the players on the same side are partners; on a "team" the players are individuals unless they are playing on a "side".

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, klebs01 said:

 

why would the second ball be lying 3 when there is no penalty for reteeing from the tee box at the opponents request? The team B thought there would be a penalty, they were wrong. Sucks for them. At that point ball 1 is out of play and is irrelevant. They don’t get to choose the worse of the two balls. 
 

team A is lying 1 hitting their second shot to the green. 

 

This was a match play 4-ball 4-some. As rogolf confirmed, in match play, when there is confusion about a ruling, and there's no official nearby to make a ruling, and the 2 sides/players involved agree upon an outcome, it stands,,,,,,,, whether it is correct or not. 👍

Edited June 25, 2023 by nsxguy

[klebs01]

23 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

This was a match play 4-ball. As rogolf confirmed, in match play, when there is confusion about a ruling, and there's no official nearby to make a ruling, and the 2 sides/players involved agree upon an outcome, it stands,,,,,,,, whether it is correct or not. 👍

that’s after a hole has been completed, correct? The hole hasn’t been completed in this case. I agree that ball 2 is the only one in play. Not sure that they can’t clarify the issue before the home is completed. 

[nsxguy]

51 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

that’s after a hole has been completed, correct? The hole hasn’t been completed in this case. I agree that ball 2 is the only one in play. Not sure that they can’t clarify the issue before the home is completed. 

 

Well, the rule itself says (in part) "

If a player who is starting a hole plays a ball from outside the teeing area (including from a wrong set of tee markers for a different teeing location on the same hole or a different hole):

(1) Match Play. There is no penalty, but the opponent may cancel the stroke:

• This must be done promptly and before either player makes another stroke. When the opponent cancels the stroke, they cannot withdraw the cancellation.

• If the opponent cancels the stroke, the player must play a ball from inside the teeing area and it is still their turn to play.

• If the opponent does not cancel the stroke, the stroke counts and the ball is in play and must be played as it lies.

 

Now the above doesn't cover "what ifs", but I believe the overriding ruling here is that of the 2 players/sides agreeing on a procedure when neither one can confirm a ruling.

 

That's what they did so I'm assuming "No back-sies".  What's done is done. 

[st1800e]

And the same player that teed of initially must hit the second tee shot,  penalty strokes don't change who hits the next shot, they're added at the end of the hole.  

[Colin L]

Side B had the right to require Side A to cancel its first stroke and put another ball into play.  The mistake could have been that the action was correct but the error lay  in applying the 2 stroke penalty that you get in stroke play. But we don't have enough information about what was said and we we don't know if the correct player replayed the cancelled stroke.   If it were a matter of mistakenly applying a penalty, I would say that a timely request for ruling (ie before the first stroke on the next hole) should get the simple answer that there is no penalty and the second  ball played  was Side A's first stroke - provided the player who made the cancelled stroke put the next ball into play.  If, however, they thought they were playing under stroke and distance, it would have been the other player who put the next ball into play and untangling that would mean loss of hole.

 

Whatever happened, if Side A did not raise their doubts until after starting the next hole, what they did would stand.

 

Not enough information from the OP.  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Colin L

[st1800e]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

 If, however, they thought they were playing under stroke and distance, it would have been the other player who put the next ball into play

No.  

[Colin L]

10 minutes ago, st1800e said:

No.  

 

Perhaps you have misunderstood what I meant by "the other player".   If Player 1 of Side A had played the shot from outside the teeing area, and the stroke was cancelled, he/she would have to make the next stroke.  If, however, Side A were playing under stroke and distance or playing a provisional ball it should be Player 2 who makes the stroke.

[st1800e]

1 minute ago, Colin L said:

 If, however, Side A were playing under stroke and distance or playing a provisional ball it should be Player 2 who makes the stroke.

Penalty vs provisional ball would dictate a different player , so cant be equivalent.  

[rogolf]

??

[Colin L]

19 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Penalty vs provisional ball would dictate a different player , so cant be equivalent.  

See  Rule 22.3 and Clarification 22.3/1 

https://www.randa.org/rog/the-rules-of-golf/rule-22

https://www.randa.org/rog/interpretations/rule-22#22_3_1

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

Side B had the right to require Side A to cancel its first stroke and put another ball into play.  The mistake could have been that the action was correct but the error lay  in applying the 2 stroke penalty that you get in stroke play. But we don't have enough information about what was said and we we don't know if the correct player replayed the cancelled stroke.   If it were a matter of mistakenly applying a penalty, I would say that a timely request for ruling (ie before the first stroke on the next hole) should get the simple answer that there is no penalty and the second  ball played  was Side A's first stroke - provided the player who made the cancelled stroke put the next ball into play.  If, however, they thought they were playing under stroke and distance, it would have been the other player who put the next ball into play and untangling that would mean loss of hole.

 

Whatever happened, if Side A did not raise their doubts until after starting the next hole, what they did would stand.

 

Not enough information from the OP.  

 

That is how I see it as well. Without further clarification on who hit which ball we can only speculate but it seems likely that those two balls were played by two different players and that leads to loss of hole (if they want to play by the Rules instead of their original agreement).

[Colin L]

Posted in error

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

Posted in error

 

 

No, I posted it on purpose 😆

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

This was a match play 4-ball. 

 Foursome match play, not 4-ball.

[RCGA]

One last addition...

 

I was on Team B and (incorrectly) suggested the 3-off-the-tee rule not realizing there was a difference in rules between match play vs stroke play. I've been playing since 1999 and have never come across this situation before. 

 

Team A Player 1 hit the first ball. Then Team A Player 2 hit the second off the tee. Then we (Team B) hit but under the assumption they were laying 3. So we're already making a dog's breakfast of the rules. 

 

In any event, lots of confusion and Team A conceded the hole outright in frustration. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by RCGA

[nsxguy]

34 minutes ago, RCGA said:

One last addition...

 

I was on Team B and (incorrectly) suggested the 3-off-the-tee rule not realizing there was a difference in rules between match play vs stroke play. I've been playing since 1999 and have never come across this situation before. 

 

Team A Player 1 hit the first ball. Then Team A Player 2 hit the second off the tee. Then we (Team B) hit but under the assumption they were laying 3. So we're already making a dog's breakfast of the rules. 

 

In any event, lots of confusion and Team A conceded the hole outright in frustration. 

 

Well, Team B did nothing wrong (except being a party to an incorrect ruling).

 

Team A did "everything" wrong. Started outside the teeing area. Wrong player hit next shot. Picked up the original ball.

 

Guess all's well that ends well.

[klebs01]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, Team B did nothing wrong (except being a party to an incorrect ruling).

 

Team A did "everything" wrong. Started outside the teeing area. Wrong player hit next shot. Picked up the original ball.

 

Guess all's well that ends well.

picking up the original ball was the correct thing to do. It was out of play as soon as team B requested team A retee. 

[nsxguy]

Just now, klebs01 said:

picking up the original ball was the correct thing to do. It was out of play as soon as team B requested team A retee. 

Agreed, but Team B didn't request anything.

 

Yes, it was out of play as soon as Team A hit the 2nd ball under the 2 teams' agreement.

 

Presumably, even though they'd agreed to "Team A hitting 3 off the tee", had they correctly come up with the proper way to proceed and correctly applied the rule, BEFORE the 2nd ball was hit, they still could've proceeded correctly (I believe).

[klebs01]

15 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Agreed, but Team B didn't request anything.

 

Yes, it was out of play as soon as Team A hit the 2nd ball under the 2 teams' agreement.

 

Presumably, even though they'd agreed to "Team A hitting 3 off the tee", had they correctly come up with the proper way to proceed and correctly applied the rule, BEFORE the 2nd ball was hit, they still could've proceeded correctly (I believe).

team B requested they retee. Why else would they do it? I’m not sure they had to sort out the penalty, or lack there of before that shot was played. They just had to agree on a result for the hole before they teed off on the next hole. Once they started the next hole the result for the hole in question would be final regardless of whether it was correct.

[nsxguy]

18 hours ago, RCGA said:

Playing alternate shot match play

 

Team A, Player 1 tees off first but plays outside the tee markers by mistake. Some confusion over what the rule is but Team A agree to hit 3 off the tee. 

 

Team B, Player 1 hits it in the bunker off the tee. Team B, Player 2 then hits it on the green. 

 

After all this, Team A then informs Team B of the "re-tee" rule where Team B can choose if Team A plays the original shot or re-tee without penalty. Team B asks to see where Team A's first shot is, but the ball has already been picked up. 

 

Give me a ruling 

 

3 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

team B requested they retee. Why else would they do it? I’m not sure they had to sort out the penalty, or lack there of before that shot was played. They just had to agree on a result for the hole before they teed off on the next hole. Once they started the next hole the result for the hole in question would be final regardless of whether it was correct.

 

13 hours ago, rogolf said:

Rule 6.1 b(1) says that cancelling the stroke must be done "promptly" and before either player makes another stroke (imo, "either player" means the player or the opponent).

When the sides agree on the ruling and player 2 from side 1 plays under stroke and distance from the tee, that is their ball in play.  The first ball that side played is no longer available to be played and there are no choices to be made.

BTW, a "side" is different than a "team".  On a "side", the players on the same side are partners; on a "team" the players are individuals unless they are playing on a "side".

 

[klebs01]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

How did team B not request they retee. Where does it say they can’t correct the error on the application of the penalty before the end of the hole?