Shaft Plane

[Zitlow]

The shaft should be on plane at or around P5. A good way to check if it's on the inclined plane is to go to P3 and bend your right elbow. Where the shaft touches your body is the plane it's on, upright, flat or on plane.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Zitlow
Said P5 meant to say P3. oops.

[iacas]

Anyone who makes contact with the golf ball is "on plane" at some point, and given how little we can change anything from P5 to P7… just about everyone is "on plane" at P5.

 

There's a lot more to it all than this, and I generally don't like talk of players being "on plane" because that word means different things to different people. Also, camera angle (height, lateral, even zoom level/distance) drastically affects this:

 

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

Where the shaft touches your body is the plane it's on, upright, flat or on plane.

 

Also… 😄 The shaft doesn't touch your body (just your hands, and that's via the grip). Like, ever. Maybe in Greg Norman's follow-through when it whacked him across his back. 😄

 

Are these guys "off plane" here?

 

[GoGoErky]

Then you have Bradley Hughes with a differing opinion about swing plane and where being on swing plane matter.

 

 

[getitdaily]

I feel like you're the dude who hosted shell's wonderful world of golf in the 60s with your videos and stills. 

[Zitlow]

Even highly talented players struggle finding fairways sometimes because they get the shaft above or below the plane going back and have to get it back on plane coming down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Anyone who makes contact with the golf ball is "on plane" at some point, and given how little we can change anything from P5 to P7… just about everyone is "on plane" at P5.

 

There's a lot more to it all than this, and I generally don't like talk of players being "on plane" because that word means different things to different people. Also, camera angle (height, lateral, even zoom level/distance) drastically affects this:

 

 

Also… 😄 The shaft doesn't touch your body (just your hands, and that's via the grip). Like, ever. Maybe in Greg Norman's follow-through when it whacked him across his back. 😄

 

Are these guys "off plane" here?

 

The key is having the shaft parallel to the original shaft plane at P5 from this view. It's pointing above the ball because the hands are in a higher place than they are at impact. Shaft pointing at the ball is 'off plane' or steep. 

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

The key is having the shaft parallel to the original shaft plane at P5 from this view.

 

While I'd agree that those two are generally close… I don't think that's that important. And most players return the handle higher at impact than it was at setup.

 

34 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Shaft pointing at the ball is 'off plane' or steep.

 

Is it though?

 

 

The thing is… you can't really look at this stuff in 2D. Small changes to the camera angle, lens compression, and all sorts of things can lead you astray, not to mention the fact that many people have had a lot of success breaking some of these rules.

 

And… plenty of amateurs will have the shaft pointing outside the ball but still be quite steep at this point.

 

Edit to add: I created and sell "line-drawing" software and I'm still one of the first to tell you that you can't tell some of this stuff in 2D, that camera angles matter quite a bit, etc. Rules like "the shaft should be parallel to and above at P5 where it is at P1" don't generally hold up all that well. Maybe they're close… but like I said above: plenty of hacks satisfy that rule and still stink.

Edited July 4, 2023 by iacas

[tthomasgolfer605]

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

While I'd agree that those two are generally close… I don't think that's that important. And most players return the handle higher at impact than it was at setup.

 

 

Is it though?

 

 

The thing is… you can't really look at this stuff in 2D. Small changes to the camera angle, lens compression, and all sorts of things can lead you astray, not to mention the fact that many people have had a lot of success breaking some of these rules.

 

And… plenty of amateurs will have the shaft pointing outside the ball but still be quite steep at this point.

 

Edit to add: I created and sell "line-drawing" software and I'm still one of the first to tell you that you can't tell some of this stuff in 2D, that camera angles matter quite a bit, etc. Rules like "the shaft should be parallel to and above at P5 where it is at P1" don't generally hold up all that well. Maybe they're close… but like I said above: plenty of hacks satisfy that rule and still stink.

 Getting in the ballpark of being parallel to the shaft plane early is not a bad thing to shoot for. I don't mean exactly P5 though. 

[fjk]

2 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

 Getting in the ballpark of being parallel to the shaft plane early is not a bad thing to shoot for. I don't mean exactly P5 though. 

It’s a misconception amateurs get over focused on. It really doesn’t help them bc the shaft doesn’t travel on a flat plane except through the impact interval, maybe. 
 

Unless these statements are based on 3D capture as alluded to above (2D is inherently imprecise and has way too may variables) they’re really not worth much and if anything, probably have harmed or misled a ton of amateur golfers over the years. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, fjk said:

It’s a misconception amateurs get over focused on. It really doesn’t help them bc the shaft doesn’t travel on a flat plane except through the impact interval, maybe. 
 

Unless these statements are based on 3D capture as alluded to above (2D is inherently imprecise and has way too may variables) they’re really not worth much and if anything, probably have harmed or misled a ton of amateur golfers over the years. 

I see a lot more similarities than differences in the downswing in pro swings that even go back to Bobby Jones/Sam Snead etc. Most of them shallow it out nicely making impact much easier. 

[MPStrat]

12 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

 Getting in the ballpark of being parallel to the shaft plane early is not a bad thing to shoot for. I don't mean exactly P5 though. 

This opens up a can of worms and several related conversations. What is a steep shaft? Is a steep shaft bad? What is a shallow shaft? What is shallowing? 
 

I define a steep shaft as one that points inside the ball at p5ish.

 

AMG’s “shallowing” video made a case that a vertical or steep shaft that points inside the ball at p5 is not necessarily a bad thing. 

 

It is very much pattern/golfer dependent. I much prefer a shallow shaft at p5 over a vertical shaft. 

[Zitlow]

Walter Hagen wasn't too shabby and he didn't have fancy smancy 3D technology. 

 

 

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

This opens up a can of worms and several related conversations. What is a steep shaft? Is a steep shaft bad? What is a shallow shaft? What is shallowing? 
 

I define a steep shaft as one that points inside the ball at p5ish.

 

AMG’s “shallowing” video made a case that a vertical or steep shaft that points inside the ball at p5 is not necessarily a bad thing. 

 

It is very much pattern/golfer dependent. I much prefer a shallow shaft at p5 over a vertical shaft. 

I would say if the shaft is too vertical in transition and you don't hit it flush, it's time to shallow it out.  If you're vertical  and can hit it where you're looking with good distance control, then don't change a thing. I would argue the latter is pretty rare. Having the club 90 degrees to the backline is a good indicator of a shallow shaft I guess. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Walter Hagen wasn't too shabby and he didn't have fancy smancy 3D technology. 

 

 

 

 

God, I love his swing. 

[Nard_S]

P5 seems irrelevant. How the shaft lays at P6 seems much more meaningful.

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I would say if the shaft is too vertical in transition and you don't hit it flush, it's time to shallow it out.  If you're vertical  and can hit it where you're looking with good distance control, then don't change a thing. I would argue the latter is pretty rare. 

Good points here. 
 

There are matchups too.
 

Generally, good players who are vertical at p5 like Rory and Jason Day have the lead arm deeper and lower their arms more independently than tour players who are shallow. 
 

 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

P5 seems irrelevant. How the shaft lays at P6 seems much more meaningful.

I think both can be relevant and irrelevant. There are many players who get the shaft in a good spot at p6 but the body movements that helped bring it to that point are less than ideal.

[tthomasgolfer605]

7 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

P5 seems irrelevant. How the shaft lays at P6 seems much more meaningful.

P6 is a result of what happened before. 

[Zitlow]

14 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

God, I love his swing. 

 

The equipment was terrible. My dad had an old set of Wilson Dynapower irons. I hit the 2 iron once and my hands and arms stung for a week. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

9 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Good points here. 
 

There are matchups too.
 

Generally, good players who are vertical at p5 like Rory and Jason Day have the lead arm deeper and lower their arms more independently than tour players who are shallow. 
 

 

Rory doesn't pull down hard and has a more progressive shallowing move. If you look at his iron swing, his right shoulder looks like it's going a bit out through the ball from DTL so he doesn't tilt and get dumped under. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

8 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

The equipment was terrible. My dad had an old set of Wilson Dynapower irons. I hit the 2 iron once and my hands and arms stung for a week. 

I started with Titleist Tour Models back in 85. Damn they hurt if you hit it thin in the cold. 

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

P6 is a result of what happened before. 

 Yeah there's many things that effect it, so why is where butt of shaft at P5 so special? 

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

 Yeah there's many things that effect it, so why is where butt of shaft at P5 so special? 

Actually it starts in transition to get there. It's about getting the mass of the club behind the hands which is common in the greats. I call it the Anti-Malaska move. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

Just now, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Actually it starts in transition to get there. It's about getting the mass of the club behind the hands which is common in the greats. I call it the Anti-Malaska move. 

Some need to make backswing changes to make it easier. Some don't. 

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Actually it starts in transition to get there. It's about getting the mass of the club behind the hands which is common in the greats. I call it the Anti-Malaska move. 

Where the hands and arms go between p4 and p5 is critical. You can get the mass of the club behind the hands and still be in a not so great position. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

7 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Where the hands and arms go between p4 and p5 is critical. You can get the mass of the club behind the hands and still be in a not so great position. 

Are you speaking of if they go too far out? 

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Actually it starts in transition to get there. It's about getting the mass of the club behind the hands which is common in the greats. I call it the Anti-Malaska move. 

Okay, I get that but honest last thing I look at is ''plane'' at P5. Maybe I should but no one has made the compelling case. If you intend to drop mass lower & behind, P6 is money shot for that, not P5. P5 plane is not a gate keeper to P6 plane as near as i can tell. I'm open to being convinced but seems this all a bit arbitrary. 

[getitdaily]

5 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Are you speaking of if they go too far out? 

Yep

[MPStrat]

16 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Where the hands and arms go between p4 and p5 is critical. You can get the mass of the club behind the hands and still be in a not so great position. 

Some pros are very downward from p4-p5, some are very outward. It’s more important that everything matches than having the shaft or hand path meet some specific criteria. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Okay, I get that but honest last thing I look at is ''plane'' at P5. Maybe I should but no one has made the compelling case. If you intend to drop mass lower & behind, P6 is money shot for that, not P5. P5 plane is not a gate keeper to P6 plane as near as i can tell. I'm open to being convinced but seems this all a bit arbitrary. 

You can pull down steep into a decent looking P6 position. Impact will be pure luck to hit it correctly though.