Shaft Plane

[tthomasgolfer605]

10 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Yep

How's that coming along btw? 

[fjk]

1 hour ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I see a lot more similarities than differences in the downswing in pro swings that even go back to Bobby Jones/Sam Snead etc. Most of them shallow it out nicely making impact much easier. 

Sure. But you're showing as an example one set of photos from a particular angle, lens, etc. Just cant draw meaningful conclusions from that, certainly nothing that's specific. Generalizations sure. But drawing lines to show its inside, at, or outside the ball really has no meaning.

 

This has been shown on gears when the "camera angle" is rotated and it changes the 2D appearance of the "shaft plane." 

 

It's just not a reliable method to base sound theory on.

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, fjk said:

Sure. But you're showing as an example one set of photos from a particular angle, lens, etc. Just cant draw meaningful conclusions from that, certainly nothing that's specific. Generalizations sure. But drawing lines to show its inside, at, or outside the ball really has no meaning.

 

This has been shown on gears when the "camera angle" is rotated and it changes the 2D appearance of the "shaft plane." 

 

It's just not a reliable method to base sound theory on.

 I'm not talking about whether or not it points at the ball or outside. I'm referring to the general pitch of the shaft in the downswing. 90 degrees to the backline is what I'd call shallowing a good amount. Snead did it right in his transition. It's not just laying it off with the wrists, the whole body is involved. 

[fjk]

13 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

 I'm not talking about whether or not it points at the ball or outside. I'm referring to the general pitch of the shaft in the downswing. 90 degrees to the backline is what I'd call shallowing a good amount. Snead did it right in his transition. It's not just laying it off with the wrists, the whole body is involved. 

Sure. I’m just saying using stills or even video from 2D isn’t reliable. Unless you’re comparing two people on the same camera and camera position. 
 

on its own it’s not that useful and probably leads to a lot of misled conclusions. 

[Brooks_Cupcake]

Wtf is a “P4 or a P5?”

[teddyironboy]

i think the best position to view how shallow the shaft is should be right after p5. though it depends how much lag there is. that's when the club is vertical in the face on view. this takes care of the 2d/3d thing better.**

 

in my complete broscience opinion the shaft should be as parallel as you can get to your spine at p5 as you can.  i really don't think it matters as much the angle of the shaft vs the ground or angle vs the original shaft plane - that's more of a consequence.

 

something about the club swinging parallel to the spine just looks correct, and seems to be what a lot of modern teachers try for. maybe it's the mass flying parallel around the body makes the club more stable. makes it more of a baseball swing. requires a lot of hip/side bend, but also not necessary to be like benett or niemann to pull it off.

 

** thinking more about it not sure if it's correct. i don't think it matters how exact it is. but should still try and at least get it at least matching starting shaft line or shallower in roughly p5

Edited July 4, 2023 by teddyironboy

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 hour ago, teddyironboy said:

i think the best position to view how shallow the shaft is should be right after p5. though it depends how much lag there is. that's when the club is vertical in the face on view. this takes care of the 2d/3d thing better.

 

in my complete broscience opinion the shaft should be as parallel as you can get to your spine at p5 as you can.  i really don't think it matters as much the angle of the shaft vs the ground or angle vs the original shaft plane - that's more of a consequence.

 

something about the club swinging parallel to the spine just looks correct, and seems to be what a lot of modern teachers try for. maybe it's the mass flying parallel around the body makes the club more stable. makes it more of a baseball swing. requires a lot of hip/side bend, but also not necessary to be like benett or niemann to pull it off.

I think you mean perpendicular to the spine. 

[teddyironboy]

12 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I think you mean perpendicular to the spine. 

 

yup. arms might rip out of shoulder sockets if it was parallel 😅

[iacas]

11 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

 Getting in the ballpark of being parallel to the shaft plane early is not a bad thing to shoot for. I don't mean exactly P5 though. 

 

FWIW I never said it was a "bad" thing. I said it wasn't as important or as relevant as you (and others) seem to think it is.

 

11 hours ago, fjk said:

It’s a misconception amateurs get over focused on. It really doesn’t help them bc the shaft doesn’t travel on a flat plane except through the impact interval, maybe.

 

And… it might, for one moment in time, look "good" but because it's on its way somewhere else, is completely irrelevant.

 

I've taught a number of golfers who are laid off at the top, steepen it the whole downswing… and hit a "parallel at P5" position. The motion is FAR more important than the position.

 

11 hours ago, fjk said:

Unless these statements are based on 3D capture as alluded to above (2D is inherently imprecise and has way too may variables) they’re really not worth much and if anything, probably have harmed or misled a ton of amateur golfers over the years. 

 

Yep.

 

10 hours ago, Nard_S said:

P5 seems irrelevant. How the shaft lays at P6 seems much more meaningful.

 

It can still suffer from the same thing I noted above - it can be steepening or shallowing or whatever but look good at a moment in time - but it's less likely to as it's closer to impact.

 

9 hours ago, fjk said:

Sure. But you're showing as an example one set of photos from a particular angle, lens, etc. Just cant draw meaningful conclusions from that, certainly nothing that's specific. Generalizations sure. But drawing lines to show its inside, at, or outside the ball really has no meaning.

 

This has been shown on gears when the "camera angle" is rotated and it changes the 2D appearance of the "shaft plane." 

 

It's just not a reliable method to base sound theory on.

 

Yep. Same swing:

 

 

9 hours ago, fjk said:

Sure. I’m just saying using stills or even video from 2D isn’t reliable. Unless you’re comparing two people on the same camera and camera position. 
 

on its own it’s not that useful and probably leads to a lot of misled conclusions. 

 

👍🏼

[MK7Golf21]

didn't Hank Haney base his teaching philosophy on the "parallel planes" idea? He says that is the pitch he gave to Tiger when they first started working together.

[PracticeSwinger]

The way this thread is going, I'm waiting to see if Old Tom Morris swing was on plane by P5 with stone engravings

[glk]

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

 

FWIW I never said it was a "bad" thing. I said it wasn't as important or as relevant as you (and others) seem to think it is.

 

 

And… it might, for one moment in time, look "good" but because it's on its way somewhere else, is completely irrelevant.

 

I've taught a number of golfers who are laid off at the top, steepen it the whole downswing… and hit a "parallel at P5" position. The motion is FAR more important than the position.

 

 

Yep.

 

 

It can still suffer from the same thing I noted above - it can be steepening or shallowing or whatever but look good at a moment in time - but it's less likely to as it's closer to impact.

 

 

Yep. Same swing:

 

 

 

👍🏼

Maybe it's how my brain works, but I see similarities in these great swings from different angles. I can spot a crappy transition no matter what angle I'm viewing it.

[tthomasgolfer605]

15 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

 

yup. arms might rip out of shoulder sockets if it was parallel 😅

It's actually doable. 🤣

[Zitlow]

15 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

It's actually doable. 🤣

 

You've discovered the lost fundamental. 

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Maybe it's how my brain works, but I see similarities in these great swings from different angles. I can spot a crappy transition no matter what angle I'm viewing it.

 

Of course there are "similarities." I've never said there aren't.

 

I have said that using 2D is a potentially and frequently flawed way of "analyzing" things or making up "rules" for positions in the golf swing. That the golf swing is a movement, and the positions matter less than how the club is actually moving, not where it happens to be at a moment in time.

[Zitlow]

@tthomasgolfer605 Ben Hogan's secret finally revealed. "The Cigarette Plane". The cigarette matches his 28* spine angle at address. 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Zitlow

[tthomasgolfer605]

54 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

@tthomasgolfer605 Ben Hogan's secret finally revealed. "The Cigarette Plane". The cigarette matches his 28* spine angle at address. 

 

 

 

D.J. used the straw plane when he was in his cocaine days. 

[Zitlow]

I know a guy who keeps a cigar in his mouth when he plays. He told me his backswing key was to swing his left shoulder under the cigar. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

9 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I know a guy who keeps a cigar in his mouth when he plays. He told me his backswing key was to swing his left shoulder under the cigar. 

Interesting. 

[virtuoso]

I can make a good looking swing on video and plane the shaft super sexy in the tranny and coming down and miss the ball completely. Literally whiff the thing. And if I just showed a still at P5, people would tell me to make it my avatar.

[RoyalTroon]

On 7/4/2023 at 9:49 PM, Zitlow said:

I know a guy who keeps a cigar in his mouth when he plays. He told me his backswing key was to swing his left shoulder under the cigar. 

 

Larry Loretti stogied his way around the track all day long...

 

 

[KGrinols]

After posting a video 3-4 weeks ago, I've been working at getting on plane, mainly in the take away, basically every day, for 100-200 swings or partial movements, per day.

 

Today I took an updated video just to track my progress and it looks great (to me) up to shaft parallel, but what I notice is that despite a seemingly decent takeaway, at the top I'm way off plane again.  Rather than start a new thread, I figured I'd piggy back here.

 

Here is my swing in it's current state, I understand there are plenty of issues other places, but I'm really just trying to pin down the take away up to transition at the moment.

 

Plenty of YouTube videos seem to accept both positions, when I'm looking at where my left arm crosses the body (at the top).  Where I'm currently, roughly, left arm parallel to my shoulders.  In multiple videos coaches seem perfectly fine with that.  In other videos, it seems like they're targeting the left arm through the center of the right bicep, which will more strictly keep the shaft on plane.

 

I tried to mimic what I'm currently doing on take away #1 and then where I think center bicep would be as a visual on take away #2.  But before I put in another month of reps, I wanted to get some thoughts on whether it's worth it, or if it's even the right\wrong thing to do, or if I'm going down a good path at all I guess.

 

Drill example of both "thoughts".

 

Thanks in advance!

[Zitlow]

It looks good, a couple small suggestions to make your swing more dynamic. 

 

You need a hand span width between you and the butt of the club at address to give you room to swing your right side between the left side and the ball through impact.

 

 

 

You're a little off balance. Shift your weight to your right foot as you swing the club back. 

 

 

 

 

[glk]

2 hours ago, KGrinols said:

After posting a video 3-4 weeks ago, I've been working at getting on plane, mainly in the take away, basically every day, for 100-200 swings or partial movements, per day.

 

Today I took an updated video just to track my progress and it looks great (to me) up to shaft parallel, but what I notice is that despite a seemingly decent takeaway, at the top I'm way off plane again.  Rather than start a new thread, I figured I'd piggy back here.

 

Here is my swing in it's current state, I understand there are plenty of issues other places, but I'm really just trying to pin down the take away up to transition at the moment.

 

Plenty of YouTube videos seem to accept both positions, when I'm looking at where my left arm crosses the body (at the top).  Where I'm currently, roughly, left arm parallel to my shoulders.  In multiple videos coaches seem perfectly fine with that.  In other videos, it seems like they're targeting the left arm through the center of the right bicep, which will more strictly keep the shaft on plane.

 

I tried to mimic what I'm currently doing on take away #1 and then where I think center bicep would be as a visual on take away #2.  But before I put in another month of reps, I wanted to get some thoughts on whether it's worth it, or if it's even the right\wrong thing to do, or if I'm going down a good path at all I guess.

 

Drill example of both "thoughts".

 

Thanks in advance!

Two things.   Your setup posture is what you need to improve.    Second the shaft plane is not a plane that the club swings on it is solely a reference plane.   An approximation of the club head plane (which closely resembles a plane from p6-p8) is the elbow plane - line from ball thru trail elbow.

 

On setup you are too close to ball and too upright.   Hands and shoulders should hang just outside your toes - put a club or alignment stick down parallel to your feet and about a inch in front of your toes - that is where you should have hands hanging.   Going to need more bend at the hips and some more knee bend (with them flexed forward).    https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/?hl=en

 

Then when you want to practice the backswing this is a simple drill that just requires the use of your lead hand.   https://www.instagram.com/p/CJBiS3plrJs/?hl=en

 

You should look more like this at setup - hands just beyond toes, line down back of trail shoulder goes just past knees and to feet arches, calves with a bit of forward lean.

Edited July 7, 2023 by glk