Hand Depth in Backswing vs. Keeping Arms in Front of Torso

[ThinkingPlus]

So these backswing thoughts/positions seem to be contradictory yet are frequently mentioned as the "right" thing to do. Are they compatible goals? Is one more right than the other? Are these player specific or shot shape specific recommendations? Open for discussion.

[bladehunter]

Agree. There’s so many contradictory terms and ideas that it’s hard to even pick out a best example. And it all seems to hinge on the desired shape and that teachers grip philosophy.    

[MK7Golf21]

want a mix of both, get too deep with hands at top and right elbow can get stuck behind and cause right arm to go internal quickly on downswing. 

[getitdaily]

Too much in front and you get steep (ask me how I know)

 

Too deep and you get stuck.

[PracticeSwinger]

32 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

So these backswing thoughts/positions seem to be contradictory yet are frequently mentioned as the "right" thing to do. Are they compatible goals? Is one more right than the other? Are these player specific or shot shape specific recommendations? Open for discussion.

My uneducated guess is that you want both if possible, but that requires a great shoulder line turn; think Rory as the extreme example. You can live without much depth and having your hands in front of your torso at the top of you don’t open up your shoulders too quickly from there, see Rahm. What you surely don’t want is big hands depth and them not being in front of your torso (that usually comes from an inside takeaway) from there you can easily get stuck and it’s snap hook or big block cities.

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

My uneducated guess is that you want both if possible, but that requires a great shoulder line turn; think Rory as the extreme example. You can live without much depth and having your hands in front of your torso at the top of you don’t open up your shoulders too quickly from there, see Rahm. What you surely don’t want is big hands depth and them not being in front of your torso (that usually comes from an inside takeaway) from there you can easily get stuck and it’s snap hook or big block cities.

Maybe I don't understand hand depth. I have seen it described as the distance from your hands to your head in a DTL view of the swing. Hands in front of torso would then imply minimal depth (slightly behind the head) while hands furthest from head would imply maximal depth and certainly well behind the torso in a DTL view.

 

Maybe the better question is what hand depth is too much and are the hands still in front of the torso (DTL view) at that position.

[MPStrat]

There is 3D hand depth and then there is fake hand depth by pulling the hands in and across the torso excessively. 2D hand depth can be very overrated. Not having the right blend of arms and body is where we can get into trouble.
 

I don’t think we ever want to keep the arms in front of the torso, we want to keep the arms more in front of the shoulders.
 

Two common scenarios that can be troublesome and create a lack of 3D hand depth:  Too much arm lift, and/or lack of upper body “turn”

 

Two common scenarios that can be troublesome and create too much fake hand depth:  Early and excessive lead arm adduction or pulling the arms across the torso excessively and lack of arm lift. In this case, players will often need to learn to allow the arms to elevate more and allow the “turn” of their body to be more responsible for creating hand depth. Players will often use fake depth as a substitute for their lack of shoulder turn. 

[Trippels]

44 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

So these backswing thoughts/positions seem to be contradictory yet are frequently mentioned as the "right" thing to do. Are they compatible goals? Is one more right than the other? Are these player specific or shot shape specific recommendations? Open for discussion.

They're not contradictory. The depth comes mostly from turn, with some from shoulder retraction/protraction, and some influence in the appearance of depth comes from tilts, arm rotation, elbow bend, arm lift, etc. Rory has lots of depth because he has a massive shoulder turn, with good hip turn and a wide right arm.

 

AMG has several videos on youtube where they show measurements on arm position and turn throughout the swing.

 

Their general advice is that you get your trail hand in front of you trail shoulder in the backswing with less than 90 degree bend. You can see that isolated in their shallowing video.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

I associate arms in front more with through the impact zone, where my tendency is to get too underneath where I don't feel like I can get 'on top of' it. Usually results in swinging too much out to in. 

 

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Maybe I don't understand hand depth. I have seen it described as the distance from your hands to your head in a DTL view of the swing. Hands in front of torso would then imply minimal depth (slightly behind the head) while hands furthest from head would imply maximal depth and certainly well behind the torso in a DTL view.

 

Maybe the better question is what hand depth is too much and are the hands still in front of the torso (DTL view) at that position.

 

I like to look at it in relation to your ankle joint, where right over the ankle is 'ideal', behind your feet is maybe too much, more towards the toes not enough depth.

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

There is 3D hand depth and then there is fake hand depth by pulling the hands in and across the torso excessively. 2D hand depth can be very overrated. Not having the right blend of arms and body is where we can get into trouble.
 

I don’t think we ever want to keep the arms in front of the torso, we want to keep the arms more in front of the shoulders.
 

Two common scenarios that can be troublesome and create a lack of 3D hand depth:  Too much arm lift, and/or lack of upper body “turn”

 

Two common scenarios that can be troublesome and create too much fake hand depth:  Early and excessive lead arm adduction or pulling the arms across the torso excessively and lack of arm lift. In this case, players will often need to learn to allow the arms to elevate more and allow the “turn” of their body to be more responsible for creating hand depth. Players will often use fake depth as a substitute for their lack of shoulder turn. 

For this discussion, torso and shoulders are equivalent. Height of the hands above ground is a different subject.

 

Edit: Understand now. Didn't get it the first time through. Yes. Shoulder width instead of torso width.

Edited August 15, 2023 by ThinkingPlus
Misunderstanding

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

I associate arms in front more with through the impact zone, where my tendency is to get too underneath where I don't feel like I can get 'on top of' it. Usually results in swinging too much out to in. 

 

 

I like to look at it in relation to your ankle joint, where right over the ankle is 'ideal', behind your feet is maybe too much, more towards the toes not enough depth.

Narrow region.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Height of the hands above ground is a different subject.

Not if you’re talking about dtl 2d hand depth. Plays a massive role.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

6 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Narrow region.

 

Could expand it to well behind the heel or in front of the toes in more extreme cases, it may not seem like a lot but can make a difference, especially when considering the turn differences to get to each rather than just trying to put your arms there. In my case if it's too much towards my toes I know I have let the club get too much in and then I get too much arm lift with not enough hip turn. Better hip turn with the club more in front of me on the takeaway and it tends to end up right over my ankle joint. Also I have big feet lol. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[PracticeSwinger]

12 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Maybe I don't understand hand depth. I have seen it described as the distance from your hands to your head in a DTL view of the swing. Hands in front of torso would then imply minimal depth (slightly behind the head) while hands furthest from head would imply maximal depth and certainly well behind the torso in a DTL view.

 

Maybe the better question is what hand depth is too much and are the hands still in front of the torso (DTL view) at that position.

My understanding of depth is the same, from DTL how ‘behind your head your hands are’. Extreme example of both as mentioned is Rory. At the top, hands are deep and his tremendous shoulder turn keeps them relatively in front of his torso

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Not if you’re talking about dtl 2d hand depth. Plays a massive role.

Yes, they are coupled.

[getitdaily]

I think rather than depth from a dtl perspective being in relation to the head, depth is more about relation to the trail shoulder...less depth (the "around" depth) means you see more shoulder. More depth and you see less.

 

The optimal depth, imo, is whatever gets the club shaft under the trail shoulder by p5 with the least amount of reroute.

 

How far under the trail shoulder at p5 seems to be tied to desired shot shape and ball position. 

[ThinkingPlus]

19 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

My understanding of depth is the same, from DTL how ‘behind your head your hands are’. Extreme example of both as mentioned is Rory. At the top, hands are deep and his tremendous shoulder turn keeps them relatively in front of his torso

To me (hard to see with this photo), his hands are not in front of his shoulders/torso. They look well behind. Certainly hard to tell though from this view.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

13 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

To me (hard to see with this photo), his hands are not in front of his shoulders/torso. They look well behind. Certainly hard to tell though from this view.

This is why I always viewed it more as a takeaway and into impact thing, the transition allows for the arms to reconnect and feel in front of you rather than behind your turn (what I feel is underneath). I believe Rory talked about this feel earlier this year, maybe when he shortened his driver some.

[PracticeSwinger]

14 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

To me (hard to see with this photo), his hands are not in front of his shoulders/torso. They look well behind. Certainly hard to tell though from this view.

I know, that pic must be from a Nokia phone.

 

Fair enough on them not being in front of his torso. I awalys get that saying, thinking that it was for players not to suck their lead arm all the way in and have their hands way behind their body.

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

This is why I always viewed it more as a takeaway and into impact thing, the transition allows for the arms to reconnect and feel in front of you rather than behind your turn (what I feel is underneath). I believe Rory talked about this feel earlier this year, maybe when he shortened his driver some.

And I'm guessing that when his big blocks come into play, when he rushes his transtion and doesn't allow for his arms to reconnect. But again, my uneducated guess.

[me05501]

This is a "feel vs. real" minefield.

 

I think every player has to land on the mental image that helps them get to the right place. It's not going to be the same for everyone. 

For me, thinking about keeping my hands in front of my sternum is a positive thought because it counteracts my tendency to shortchange my turn. For someone else that image might be a disaster. 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

I know, that pic must be from a Nokia phone.

 

Fair enough on them not being in front of his torso. I awalys get that saying, thinking that it was for players not to suck their lead arm all the way in and have their hands way behind their body.

It has always been confusing to me as well. It shouldn't be difficult to define a region of acceptability for the hands at the top of the backswing relative to trail shoulder or head or etc... and get away from vague terms like "keep the club in front of the torso".

[MPStrat]

21 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

To me (hard to see with this photo), his hands are not in front of his shoulders/torso. They look well behind. Certainly hard to tell though from this view.

The arms don’t really stay “in front” of the shoulders that late in the swing, but if someone has too much fake depth there often has to be an effort to avoid excessive adduction of the lead arm especially early on, or in the takeaway. 

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The arms don’t really stay “in front” of the shoulders that late in the swing, but if someone has too much fake depth there often has to be an effort to avoid excessive adduction of the lead arm especially early on, or in the takeaway. 

So you are throwing the BS flag on "keep in front of shoulders/torso" at the top of the backswing trope. That agrees with what I have seen more often in video.

Edited August 15, 2023 by ThinkingPlus
Clarity

[PracticeSwinger]

Seems relevant :

 

 

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

So you are throwing the BS flag on "keep in front of shoulders/torso" at the top of the backswing trope. That agrees with what I have seen more often in video.

If this were to actually happen, assuming a 90* shoulder turn, the arm swing would be extremely short. But this is extremely uncommon. Nonetheless, it’s important to know it won’t actually happen, because there are people who will take this misconception and run with it, creating all sorts of issues in an effort to keep the arms 100% in front of the shoulders. 😂 
 

However, the percentage of amateur golfers who need to work to keep their arms more in front of the shoulders is huge. 

[ThinkingPlus]

18 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

If this were to actually happen, assuming a 90* shoulder turn, the arm swing would be extremely short. But this is extremely uncommon. Nonetheless, it’s important to know it won’t actually happen, because there are people who will take this misconception and run with it, creating all sorts of issues in an effort to keep the arms 100% in front of the shoulders. 😂 
 

However, the percentage of amateur golfers who need to work to keep their arms more in front of the shoulders is huge. 

I've gone down that path. Trying to keep arms in front of torso/shoulders at the top in an attempt to not swing in to out. Felt terrible, but I could hit decent shots that way. Maybe not max distance, but fairly straight.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

So these backswing thoughts/positions seem to be contradictory yet are frequently mentioned as the "right" thing to do. Are they compatible goals? Is one more right than the other? Are these player specific or shot shape specific recommendations? Open for discussion.

I'll try to square the circle:  (and I'm just guessing here, mind) Can you get depth and keep your hands in front of your torso by making a much bigger shoulder turn?  Your hands will still be 'in front' of your torso, but your torso will be rotated enough that your hands will be back and around from their address position?

 

Though I'm with @bladehunter on a lot of this.  Especially if I try to incorporate ideas from more than one guru.  Oh well, back to Broomforce drills...

 

 

[airjammer]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

So these backswing thoughts/positions seem to be contradictory yet are frequently mentioned as the "right" thing to do. Are they compatible goals? Is one more right than the other? Are these player specific or shot shape specific recommendations? Open for discussion.

The goal of the arms in the golf swings is to get propelled for a right handed golfer from the right side of their body to the left side of their body with generally some vertical lift involved on the backswing. Imo there is no perfect backswing position as mine changes every swing and so does 99.99% of everyone else. Teachers have their preferences on how they like to see their students manage the club while you are flinging the arms from one side to the other. 
 

If I remember your swing correctly...you had a steepening move on the downswing so a shallow depth swing wouldn’t allow you to keep the club’s COM inside the ball long enough. 
 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

16 minutes ago, airjammer said:

The goal of the arms in the golf swings is to get propelled for a right handed golfer from the right side of their body to the left side of their body with generally some vertical lift involved on the backswing. Imo there is no perfect backswing position as mine changes every swing and so does 99.99% of everyone else. Teachers have their preferences on how they like to see their students manage the club while you are flinging the arms from one side to the other. 
 

If I remember your swing correctly...you had a steepening move on the downswing so a shallow depth swing wouldn’t allow you to keep the club’s COM inside the ball long enough. 
 

 

Hmmm, not sure I have talked much about my swing. I used to tip the shaft somewhat vertical when starting down to square the face, but have mostly killed that move (I think).

 

In general I swing way too much in to out and am extremely shallow. I got a lesson for my birthday about a month ago and am working on reducing the in to out. I also used to roll release and I am working on a more neutral release pattern. I aspire to being able to hit a controlled cut when needed (mostly on non-par 3 tee shots). Playing a draw exclusively is no bueno. Irons I just want to hit straight.  I see no need to work the ball to flags.

 

Mostly my question in this thread is trying to determine the whole depth vs. keep it in front recommendations. While not completely contradictory, it would be nice to know what range is acceptable. It has some bearing on path as far as I can tell.