At what position should you “release” the club during the downswing??

[slytown]

OK. So based on the videos you are sliding the hips in the downswing and having to play catch up with the wrists, which causes the loss of angles or casting motion.

 

What you need to understand is that this hip slide, or fast hips, creates a steep club and makes it so you have to quickly speed up the wrists late. It's what Monte calls the 68 ballerina move.

 

If you want to fix this, you need to work on rotation. I would have you do one backswing drill and one downswing drill.

 

1. Get the club more behind you with some wrist set. The best way to achieve this is a one piece takeaway. When you get the top you should feel like you throw the club behind your right shoulder. (Dan is the man.)

 

 

2. The downswing drill you need to focus on sequence. The sequence is lateral movement to the lead side, release, and rotation. You need to work on release and rotation. I want you to consciously stay on your right side in the downswing. DO NOT TRY TO ROTATE THE HIPS OR SHIFT WEIGHT TO YOUR LEAD SIDE. Release the club from the top so the clubhead and shaft return to the plane. Then you can rotate. Again, DO NOT SLIDE OR MOVE YOUR HIPS. Naturally that will happen if you release and rotate.

 

I like Larry's explanation here. I would not work on squatting like he does, but he explains really well why you should release and then rotate the shoulders.

 

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

15 minutes ago, slytown said:

OK. So based on the videos you are sliding the hips in the downswing and having to play catch up with the wrists, which causes the loss of angles or casting motion.

 

What you need to understand is that this hip slide, or fast hips, creates a steep club and makes it so you have to quickly speed up the wrists late. It's what Monte calls the 68 ballerina move.

 

If you want to fix this, you need to work on rotation. I would have you do one backswing drill and one downswing drill.

 

1. Get the club more behind you with some wrist set. The best way to achieve this is a one piece takeaway. When you get the top you should feel like you throw the club behind your right shoulder. (Dan is the man.)

 

 

2. The downswing drill you need to focus on sequence. The sequence is lateral movement to the lead side, release, and rotation. You need to work on release and rotation. I want you to consciously stay on your right side in the downswing. DO NOT TRY TO ROTATE THE HIPS OR SHIFT WEIGHT TO YOUR LEAD SIDE. Release the club from the top so the clubhead and shaft return to the plane. Then you can rotate. Again, DO NOT SLIDE OR MOVE YOUR HIPS. Naturally that will happen if you release and rotate.

 

I like Larry's explanation here. I would not work on squatting like he does, but he explains really well why you should release and then rotate the shoulders.

 

 

 

I know Dan personally, and he’s truly decent human being, but even the idea of a one piece takeaway is flawed and has created so many problems in swings because it comes with too many 2D presumptions.

 

I got far too flat and deep for decades because of this idea and not understanding the arm swing illusion (thread on this forum). Breaking the wrists straight off the ball ala NTC and understanding that the arms move up and away from the body slightly sorted that forever. 

 

[Zitlow]

The whole downswing is one big release involving all the major joints. The club is fully released when it's in line with the right arm.  

[slytown]

8 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I know Dan personally, and he’s truly decent human being, but even the idea of a one piece takeaway is flawed and has created so many problems in swings because it comes with too many 2D presumptions.

 

I got far too flat and deep for decades because of this idea and not understanding the arm swing illusion (thread on this forum). Breaking the wrists straight off the ball ala NTC and understanding that the arms move up and away from the body slightly sorted that forever. 

 

 

If you look at his videos though, he is bringing the club inside in the takeaway and getting very vertical with no wrist hinge at the top. The one piece takeaway is right for him.

[MPStrat]

26 minutes ago, slytown said:

OK. So based on the videos you are sliding the hips in the downswing

 

He needs more lateral motion, actually. He doesn’t slide soon enough is the issue.
 

 It goes bad early because he stands flat footed and doesn’t shift before the club moves in the takeaway, then camps out on his trail leg all the way to the top of the swing. If he didn’t slide from there he couldn’t play.

[TheDeanAbides]

2 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

If you look at his videos though, he is bringing the club inside in the takeaway and getting very vertical with no wrist hinge at the top. The one piece takeaway is right for him.

I disagree. He needs to sort out his wrist conditions straight off the ball. The reason he has no wrist hinge at the top is because he’s not using them correctly in the takeaway. 

[slytown]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

He needs more lateral motion, actually. He doesn’t slide soon enough is the issue.
 

 It goes bad early because he stands flat footed and doesn’t shift before the club moves in the takeaway, then camps out on his trail leg all the way to the top of the swing. If he didn’t slide from there he couldn’t play.

 

I was talking a slide in the downswing, not the backswing.

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, slytown said:

 

I was talking a slide in the downswing, not the backswing.

Yep I know  

[slytown]

1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I disagree. He needs to sort out his wrist conditions straight off the ball. The reason he has no wrist hinge at the top is because he’s not using them correctly in the takeaway. 

 

The one piece takeaway takes care of the wrists. That's the purpose of it. At the moment he is rolling them inside in the takeaway. When he goes to the top the dynamics of that inner takeaway creates a cupped wrist and less laid off club at the top.

[TheDeanAbides]

11 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

The one piece takeaway takes care of the wrists. That's the purpose of it. At the moment he is rolling them inside in the takeaway. When he goes to the top the dynamics of that inner takeaway creates a cupped wrist and less laid off club at the top.

The problem is giving the idea “One piece takeaway “ to a guy who already limits his wrist break. It won’t compute. He’s already holding on and has poor angles because of it.

 

 Essentially, what I’m saying is that there’s nothing “One piece” about a proper takeaway.

 

 This image also shows the issue MPstrat mentioned. He has almost no pressure on his lead foot at P3 because he hasn’t recentered correctly.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by TheDeanAbides

[slytown]

15 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The problem is giving the idea “One piece takeaway “ to a guy who already limits his wrist break. It won’t compute. He’s already holding on and has poor angles because of it.

 

 Essentially, what I’m saying is that there’s nothing “One piece” about a proper takeaway.

 

 This image also shows the issue MPstrat mentioned. He has almost no pressure on his lead foot at P3 because he hasn’t recentered correctly.

 

 

This still you posted is from the backswing. He is not holding on if you look at the down the line. He is rolling the club inside flat and lifting the club late, which makes it difficult to lay the club off. We can't see what the takeaway is like from face on. Are you saying he should keep pressure on his lead foot in the backswing?

[TheDeanAbides]

11 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

This still you posted is from the backswing. He is not holding on if you look at the down the line. He is rolling the club inside flat and lifting the club late, which makes it difficult to lay the club off. We can't see what the takeaway is like from face on. Are you saying he should keep pressure on his lead foot in the backswing?

This angle shows the angle between his arm and club at P3. Ideally the wrists are fully cocked and the angle is roughly 90* here. 
 

I’m saying that by the time the swing is at P3 the pressure should be in the toes of the lead foot. This error comes from thinking that there’s a defined backswing and then a downswing - a weight shift back and then forward. In reality this happens much sooner than most ams think, but it happens naturally if the hips are used correctly. 

[GoGoErky]

59 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

The one piece takeaway takes care of the wrists. That's the purpose of it. At the moment he is rolling them inside in the takeaway. When he goes to the top the dynamics of that inner takeaway creates a cupped wrist and less laid off club at the top.

Monte posted a video not long ago(can’t find it right now) that shows how bad the one piece is and there is no guarantee that it fixes the wrist especially since the club will move way inside. If anything Monte’s ntc or segment one from effecient swing would be a better option. Or even porzak’s takeaway drill. 

[Darom87]

P6.5

[Z1ggy16]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:52 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

You should feel like you release it as the first move from the top. The entire downswing takes 0.2 seconds or so. 
 

I recommend going to the NTC thread.

 

 Edit: if you’re having issues with the backswing and pivot then trying to fix your release is a fool’s errand. Your release is likely trying to compensate for previous errors.

I didn't read anything past this. Don't have a video reference but I feel like everything I've ever heard from AMG who uses 3D GEARS data suggests the average pro is already releasing angles from the moment down swing begins. 

 

My coach and I work on my shallowing feels as my main area to improve. I am literally feeling like I'm immediately letting that club head get lower/behind me and that I'm boeing lead wrist slightly. 

[MPStrat]

16 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Monte posted a video not long ago(can’t find it right now) that shows how bad the one piece is and there is no guarantee that it fixes the wrist especially since the club will move way inside. If anything Monte’s ntc or segment one from effecient swing would be a better option. Or even porzak’s takeaway drill. 

One piece takeaway is one of those terms that doesn’t really mean anything in particular  so it can be misinterpreted and harmful. I agree with that part of it. And as Dean touched on, it’s not really something the op needs to focus on anyway. What I generally like about it, though, is that it discourages early, intentional radial deviation which is a terrible move. See that Zach Allen thread for more detail. 

To add, the op has a pretty weak grip and probably as much radial deviation as one would want with his grip.