Wrist set - Zach Allen and hackmotion

[tthomasgolfer605]

Tiger has always had what’s called a late wrist hinge which is what is natural to him. Same with Nicklaus. 

[MK7Golf21]

21 hours ago, MPStrat said:

You headed to this?

 

 

not a bad 2.5 days of work or 3 sessions for Mike and Shaun, $24,000. Hopefully that comes with a fitted driver, golf outfit, steak/losbster meals and hotel room paid for.

Edited September 14, 2023 by MK7Golf21

[KD1]

My creepy algorithm just fed this to me: https://golfinsideruk.com/wrists-in-golf-swing/

[Zitlow]

52 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

not a bad 2.5 days of work or 3 sessions for Mike and Shaun, $24,000. Hopefully that comes with a fitted driver, golf outfit, steak/losbster meals and hotel room paid for.

 

You forgot to mention the complimentary booze and hookers. 

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The big discussion here, and it’s what Zach is saying ( I know this because we had this discussion about 5 years ago), avoid extreme movements.

 

Under or late hinging is just as bad as early over hinging.  They tend to lead to the same issue.

 

The club head moves before the body, but if you over do it, that’s bad too.

 

You don’t have to know anything about the golf swing, you just need common sense.  If you want everything to arrive at the top of the swing at the same time, the thing that has the most distance to travel (club head) has to move first and the thing that has the least distance to travel (the hips) move last.

 

Tiger called taking the hands and wrists out of the swing “stupid.”

 

When you look at most elite golfers, at left arm parallel, especially with an iron, you see pretty close to a 90* angle between the lead arm and shaft at p3….and not far off with the driver.  
 

I see way more golfers with a severe obtuse angle at P3 than I do those that have over hinged.  That leads to the body rotation maxing out very early and then the brain tries to get the club to catch-up and you get arm over run and over hinge.

 

Here is Tiger hitting a wood and well known “no hinge” Steve Stricker hitting an iron.  Sticker’s camera angle makes it look a little more hinged than it actually is, but still, you have Tiger with a wood and Mr. No Hinge pretty close to 90*, but I see golfers all day every day on the red line in Sticker’s frame.  Then you look at Rose with an iron and wood at 90*.  He’s important because he’s more neutral in his swing movements than most….or all.  Then there’s Hogan.  
 

If you’re getting to 90* with driver by p3, what is moving the most and earliest?
 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a question then, more for my own edification. I know you amongst many of the respected teachers have discussed the illusion of face-on lag angles in the downswing, especially with some of the more extreme face-on examples like Sergio. Would it be fair to say that that would also apply to the backswing angles as well? So even though in a face on view at P3, JRose looks to be at 90 degrees in the backswing, if you looked at it in 3D, the actual shaft to forearm angle would likely be hinged a decent bit less than 90*? Or to state it another way, getting to or feeling a true 90* hinge (if you take all rotation out) would be too much hinge in actuality? 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Simpsonia

[MonteScheinblum]

6 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

 

Here's a question then, more for my own edification. I know you amongst many of the respected teachers have discussed the illusion of lag angles in the downswing, especially with some of the more extreme face-on examples like Sergio. Would it be fair to say that that would also apply to the backswing angles as well? So even though in a face on view at P3, JRose looks to be at 90 degrees in the backswing, if you looked at it in 3D, the actual shaft to forearm angle would likely be hinged a decent bit less than 90*? Or to state it another way, getting to or feeling a true 90* hinge would be too much hinge in actuality? 

Absolutely.  It’s just a reference point for those that are grossly under hinged at that point.  Some of which I’ve seen where their left arm and shaft are a straight line.  Golfers need 2D reference points for visual and feel purposes, but you have to teach the swing in 3D.

 

10 years ago, a self proclaimed biomechanics expert in Germany convinced the head of the German pga that the left arm and the shaft being a straight line at p3 was actually optimal so you could max out the lag angle in transition.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

 

You forgot to mention the complimentary booze and hookers. 

And these fellas. 

[GungHoGolf]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Might just have double jointed thumbs.  My 15 year old son can do this.  And I can’t - my thumbs aren’t double jointed. yet at 43 I can pull my knee to my chest standing with zero issues. And he cannot come close.  And he’s a 10 mile a day runner. Human body is weird.  😂

 

Did a little research on this - the ability to pull your thumb back so it touches your forearm is actually one of a handful of tests for Joint Hypermobility Syndrome, which as the name suggests isn’t necessarily a good thing to have. “Double jointed” is just a lay term for this syndrome. More info here.

[baudi]

h*** Sapiens non urinat in ventum (dog latin).  After sitting too long at my table for one I must take a leak.

The pattern shown in Zach Allen's video is not Tiger's. It is a swing pattern as taught by Scott Cowx.  - It's pattern A - the stable lead wrist extension. Or the knuckles down release 

For marketing purposes it is probably better to refer to Tiger so no critique here. He could use Rory instead.  

The narrative Zach uses to point out the use of the wrists in the back swing does not match with the pattern.  

My point refers to the steepness of the curve; not the absolutes he refers to.  

He talks about 'quiet wrists'. Here is a test: if you make a fist and stretch out your arm - you can push out your pinky or pull in the thumb. The dynamics are completely different.    

But Zach is a nice guy and I should not piss into the wind.

[johnrobison]

20 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

not a bad 2.5 days of work or 3 sessions for Mike and Shaun, $24,000. Hopefully that comes with a fitted driver, golf outfit, steak/losbster meals and hotel room paid for.

More like many many years of work and research, and understanding how to convey that information to others.

[MK7Golf21]

4 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

More like many many years of work and research, and understanding how to convey that information to others.

 

 

I like their videos they release, good job on them and entertaining. I bet they make most their money off their membership site. They are advertised as an online golf instruction deal. I think that is a better value but that price has increased as well. 

 

 

 

 

I've been around the block a few times and taken many lessons, I wouldn't pay that much ever for golf instruction. Some will give their first born at the possibility of improving and that is how they are able to charge that much plus golf is a rich mans sport. As is, I mostly see rich guys wearing rolex's that are 60+ hitting foam balls into a net with money to blow before they are gone. That is the demographic who will pay that much.

 

 

 

 

[golfarb1]

About 1/2 of touring pros have the shaft at about 90 degrees to their lead arm at P3 and 1/2 do not.

Many great players in the past did not ; many great players did. Tiger does not , while Rory does . 
Should the average golfer strive to be more like Tiger or Rory . You make the choice 

If the average golfer wants to emulate Tigers swing , he/she should try to be more like Tiger at his 6 checkpoints  below  and not worry about the amount of wrist set at p3

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by golfarb1

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

 

I like their videos they release, good job on them and entertaining. I bet they make most their money off their membership site. They are advertised as an online golf instruction deal. I think that is a better value but that price has increased as well. 

 

 

 

 

I've been around the block a few times and taken many lessons, I wouldn't pay that much ever for golf instruction. Some will give their first born at the possibility of improving and that is how they are able to charge that much plus golf is a rich mans sport. As is, I mostly see rich guys wearing rolex's that are 60+ hitting foam balls into a net with money to blow before they are gone. That is the demographic who will pay that much.

 

 

 

 

I was a member of AMG+ for a month and there is a lot of interesting info there.  In the end I think that the Mike Adams et al approach of tailoring the swing to match up with the individual students movement tendencies is superior to what I perceive AMG teaching.  From the AMG videos and drills I would say that AMG teaches a standard sort of average pro swing which imho is not going to work for most golfers.  For instance I don't think that AMG would ever teach a student a under grip with a strong lead hand and a rear post movement pattern while Mike Adams would and does.  LOL I certainly could be wrong but that is the way that I see it.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Nels55

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, johnrobison said:

More like many many years of work and research, and understanding how to convey that information to others.

There is a very long list of teachers who meet this criteria. Many can’t/don’t charge anywhere near this much. The main difference is marketing. AMG is second to none in that category.

 

AMG isn’t the first to gouge their students, but that doesn’t make it a good value. Some people think they can buy a golf game by paying popular instructors ridiculous amounts of money. Nothing new. There is a market for that. 

[rondo01]

Man, freaking *yawn.* y’all are boring. my least favorite golfwrx trend this year is how any thread can turn into a circle jerk about amg’s pricing. 

[johnrobison]

17 hours ago, MPStrat said:

There is a very long list of teachers who meet this criteria. Many can’t/don’t charge anywhere near this much. The main difference is marketing. AMG is second to none in that category.

 

AMG isn’t the first to gouge their students, but that doesn’t make it a good value. Some people think they can buy a golf game by paying popular instructors ridiculous amounts of money. Nothing new. There is a market for that. 

You misunderstand what price gouging is. People have options when it comes to choosing golf instructors. MANY options. There can’t be price gouging in a market as saturated as this one.
 

Complaining about what anyone charges for their luxury services or product (e.g. all the moaning about ProSNDR)is a bit petulant. If it’s such a windfall, y’all should go do it.

[Zitlow]

Their lessons should come with a money back guarantee just in case all the esoteric, magical, top secret stuff doesn't work. 

 

 

 

 

[Fhbrook23]

2 hours ago, johnrobison said:

You misunderstand what price gouging is. People have options when it comes to choosing golf instructors. MANY options. There can’t be price gouging in a market as saturated as this one.
 

Complaining about what anyone charges for their luxury services or product (e.g. all the moaning about ProSNDR)is a bit petulant. If it’s such a windfall, y’all should go do it.

I totally agree with that. I've got a couple of things on my radar for next year. First off, I really want to check out one of Monte's schools, and I've also got my eye on one of the AMG schools. 

 

I reached out to AMG directly, and I've gotta say, a lot of the info floating around this forum about their pricing is way off or just plain wrong. Some of the comments in this thread are a perfect example of that. 

 

Honestly, I'd be curious to see that impressive list of teachers who've been in the game long enough to accumulate 40 years experience with 3D tech, regularly work with Tour players (I mean, 15 winners from last year alone!), and are willing to share their hard-earned data for free. 

 

Chaulking up anyone willing to dedicate and invest in all that hard work as "marketers" seems a bit unfair, don't you think? 

 

I mean, I don't understand the mindset – some of the same people who use and benefit from their free content, which by the way isn't really free for them to create, are some of the same folks who turn around and gripe about the cost of their top-tier, totally optional services. It's kinda of a head-scratcher.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Fhbrook23

[MK7Golf21]

14 minutes ago, Fhbrook23 said:

I totally agree with that. I've got a couple of things on my radar for next year. First off, I really want to check out one of Monte's schools, and I've also got my eye on one of the AMG schools. 

 

I reached out to AMG directly, and I've gotta say, a lot of the info floating around this forum about their pricing is way off or just plain wrong. Some of the comments in this thread are a perfect example of that. 

 

 

We were talking about that 2.5 day golf school coming up that someone posted a screenshot of, the price just catches me off guard when I see that stuff.

 

Regarding info floating around being wrong, it wasn't at the time. They might have changed things, possibly based off the reactions in posts here, who knows. It looks like they still advertise the $5,000 half day and $10,000 full day but added an hourly rate to their site of $500 an hour. Weird that it's $500 an hour but a half day is $5,000. They advertise the half day as 3 hours which at their hourly rate should be $1,500 but are charging $5 grand? Weird. Would think you would get a discount doing half day, not the other way around.

 

I don't really care, people can pay whatever they want. It just shocks me tbh. I was one of the people that got on 3d back in the day when it first came out with all the wires connected to you etc. 

 

 

[Fhbrook23]

7 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

We were talking about that 2.5 day golf school coming up that someone posted a screenshot of, the price just catches me off guard when I see that stuff.

 

Regarding info floating around being wrong, it wasn't at the time. They might have changed things, possibly based off the reactions in posts here, who knows. It looks like they still advertise the $5,000 half day and $10,000 full day but added an hourly rate to their site of $500 an hour. Weird that it's $500 an hour but a half day is $5,000. They advertise the half day as 3 hours which at their hourly rate should be $1,500 but are charging $5 grand? Weird. Would think you would get a discount doing half day, not the other way around.

 

I don't really care, people can pay whatever they want. It just shocks me tbh. I was one of the people that got on 3d back in the day when it first came out with all the wires connected to you etc. 

 

 

I appreciate the reply and it's a good example of what I mentioned earlier. When I emailed about hourly availability and '24 schools, they mentioned that they've always offered hourly lessons since day one. For the past year or so that wasn't an option listed on their website because those spots were already being filled by existing clients.  It wasn't until they opened their indoor club in Florida and hired an additional instructor that they decided to put their hourly schedule back on their website. 

 

As for the school - if you're aware of another option that also provides transportation, hotel, meals, greens fees, multiple gears sessions, 3D putting session, outdoor short game, on-course session, my own Trackman, 2-view camera setup, all of my swings and data recorded, and at a more economical price... please share!

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Fhbrook23

[MK7Golf21]

35 minutes ago, Fhbrook23 said:

I appreciate the reply and it's a good example of what I mentioned earlier. When I emailed about hourly availability and '24 schools, they mentioned that they've always offered hourly lessons since day one. For the past year or so that wasn't an option listed on their website because those spots were already being filled by existing clients.  It wasn't until they opened their indoor club in Florida and hired an additional instructor that they decided to put their hourly schedule back on their website. 

 

As for the school - if you're aware of another option that also provides transportation, hotel, meals, greens fees, multiple gears sessions, 3D putting session, outdoor short game, on-course session, my own Trackman, 2-view camera setup, all of my swings and data recorded, and at a more economical price... please share!

 

 

 

Hotel expense is part of 6 grand? 
 

Montes are 1,000 for 2 days and 1,300 for 3 days. Just saved you 5 grand. You will have to pay for your Uber drive to the course and holiday inn express room though.