AMG video on : setting the record straight on our golf swing analysis

[MonteScheinblum]

23 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I was just trying to show that swinging fast is not the problem that a lot of golfers think it is.  Sloooow back and keep yer noggin down!

Problem is all too many think slow back and keep your noggin down are fundamentals.

[Inexorable_Fate]

I am glad AMG made this video because I learned a ton about how they come up with their instruction.

 

Their videos on hip recentering and lead arm adduction have helped me immensely.

[Soloman1]

I have a presentation called “Pro or no.”

 

Ten “Kinematic sequences” with the task of choosing which are pro swings and which are not. I always have people grade it themselves because I’m not interested in embarrassing anyone, whether in person or online.

 

I don’t like the “gotcha” thing.

 

No one has even come close to getting them right.

 

It illustrates how difficult it is to teach golf well. The permutations of people and their athletic potentials are vast.

 

Comparing the swing of a pear-shaped accountant to a gifted, athletic pro who has a club in their hand every day, then telling them to swing like Tiger, is well, stupid, in my opinion.

 

As the old saying goes, if you want to really learn something, try to teach it.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Soloman1

[iacas]

12 hours ago, me05501 said:

It just seems like...I dunno...bullying? 

 

It's not.

 

11 hours ago, JayMas said:

In reading the OG post, and the follow up a few pages back on "how we should discuss this with them" I think the bigger problem is the insanely sanctimonious nature of the OG post while also ironically dripping with a lot of pure ignorance.

 

Yes… So much wrong with the OG post, which AMG/Neff addressed.

 

11 hours ago, JayMas said:

Maybe a little theatric for AMG, but none of the actual substance in the video was derogatory, mean, etc. Pretty much just educational stuff and a good discussion with Neff.

 

Disagreeing with literal experts based on nothing factual and being a bit of a dick about it is just never something I'm personally gonna be on board with, so tough for me to see AMG as "bullies." Looks much more like arrogance and ignorance was challenged rationally.

 

Indeed.

 

9 hours ago, ALIF said:

It’s obvious from many of your previous posts in this and other threads that you do not like AMG. Great. We get it. I am fairly neutral on them. I think they put out good information. I don’t know them personally so I cannot judge them. I think for one to say that the way they acted in that video or doing the video was narcissistic is a very large stretch. I did not get that from it at all. They came off very sincere and matter of fact without being condescending or arrogant. I guess that might’ve just been your confirmational bias kicking in. That’s ok. You’re entitled to your OPINION. Doesn’t mean that their content isn’t accurate or potentially enlightening. 

 

Bingo. And @MPStrat, I'm not asking for you to list them or anything, but I've never seen you express anything but dislike for AMG videos. Now, I am not here as much as you are, so I'll take you at your word that you don't hate every video they've ever done… It just seems like it. 😉 

 

9 hours ago, MPStrat said:

It’s a weird phenomenon. It has been known to get that way in here before too, it used to be much worse a couple years ago than it is now.

 

This must have been before some folks drove a good chunk of the actual instructors away.

 

8 hours ago, me05501 said:

I didn't mean to imply that AMG was bullying anyone. The posters who keep goading golfarb to defend himself seem to be pissing in the wind, to me at least. 

 

🤣 "It just seems like...I dunno...bullying?" 🤣

 

Nobody's "goading" @golfarb1. I asked him if he had a response. I even fake wrote a few for him. Clearly, he does not. (Nor should he, given how off-base his OP was.)

 

But hey, this is a multi-quoted post, so you won't see it. Cool.

 

5 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

Although the same could be said with GEARS' markers on the club (compared to ENSO's which are so light you don't even feel it).

 

GEARS markers change the swing weight just under one point. They're pretty light.

[MonteScheinblum]

17 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

I have a presentation called “Pro or no.”

 

Ten “Kinematic sequences” with the task of choosing which are pro swings and which are not. I always have people grade it themselves because I’m not interested in embarrassing anyone, whether in person or online.

 

I don’t like the “gotcha” thing.

 

No one has even come close to getting them right.

 

It illustrates how difficult it is to teach golf well. The permutations of people and their athletic potentials are vast.

 

Comparing the swing of a pear-shaped accountant to a gifted, athletic pro who has a club in their hand every day, then telling them to swing like Tiger, is well, stupid, in my opinion.

 

As the old saying goes, if you want really learn something, try to teach it.

 

I got 1 wrong.  I thought Jim Furyk was a hack 🤪

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Bingo. And @MPStrat, I'm not asking for you to list them or anything, but I've never seen you express anything but dislike for AMG videos. Now, I am not here as much as you are, so I'll take you at your word that you don't hate every video they've ever done… It just seems like it. 😉 

 

 

This must have been before some folks drove a good chunk of the actual instructors away.

Well believe it or not, human beings can be complex creatures, things aren’t always black and white. There are some 20-30 AMG threads and I have been active in like two or 3 of them. I think their shallowing video stinks, you highlighted my disagreement a few pages back. I think their trail side strike video is good. They first came to prominence on here when their video debunking reverse K was released. I think that was pretty much universally praised. 
 

I haven’t been around as long as some others but I don’t share the same memory of the glory days of many instructors taking part in discussion. I think most of that took place before I was a member.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Well believe it or not, human beings can be complex creatures, things aren’t always black and white. There are some 20-30 AMG threads and I have been active in like two or 3 of them. I think their shallowing video stinks, you highlighted my disagreement a few pages back. I think their trail side strike video is good. They first came to prominence on here when their video debunking reverse K was released. I think that was pretty much universally praised. 
 

I haven’t been around as long as some others but I don’t share the same memory of the glory days of many instructors taking part in discussion. I think most of that took place before I was a member.

 

Like I said, I wasn't asking you to list them. I don't think it's unfair to suggest your reputation is that you view AMG quite negatively, and rather than discuss the actual content of the video (this last one), you've only really discussed how you were fooled and felt it was clickbait.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by iacas

[MPStrat]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Like I said, I wasn't asking you to list them. I don't think it's unfair to suggest your reputation is that you view AMG quite negatively, and rather than discuss the actual content of the video (this last one), you've only really discussed how you were fooled and felt it was clickbait.

 

You can continue with whichever narrative you want. It doesn’t matter what I say, you will anyway. 

[ALIF]

14 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

You can continue with whichever narrative you want. It doesn’t matter what I say, you will anyway. 

I think iacas made a very fair assessment of your attitude/behavior regarding AMG. 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, ALIF said:

I think iacas made a very fair assessment of your attitude/behavior regarding AMG. 

 

I have to say ALIF, I’m not shocked that you think that. That isn’t much of a surprise to me.
 

[ALIF]

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

I have to say ALIF, I’m not shocked that you think that. That isn’t much of a surprise to me.
 

Well, what else would I think given your attitude/behavior toward AMG through multiple threads? You’ve acted no other way. It doesn’t matter to me what instructors you like or dislike.  But if you always have an axe to grind with certain instructors, at least be upfront about it. I could respect that. The other I don’t.

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, ALIF said:

Well, what else would I think given your attitude/behavior toward AMG through multiple threads? You’ve acted no other way. It doesn’t matter to me what instructors you like or dislike.  But if you always have an axe to grind with certain instructors, at least be upfront about it. I could respect that. The other I don’t.

I generally don’t like to make wholesale judgements on people I don’t know personally. I may dislike their marketing or the army of simps that run to their defense or some of their golf swing theories, but I honestly don’t dislike them. In other words I can dislike some of what they do or say without disliking them as people. 

[ALIF]

18 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I generally don’t like to make wholesale judgements on people I don’t know personally. I may dislike their marketing or the army of simps that run to their defense or some of their golf swing theories, but I honestly don’t dislike them. In other words I can dislike some of what they do or say without disliking them as people. 

Fair enough.

[virtuoso]

5 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I was just trying to show that swinging fast is not the problem that a lot of golfers think it is.  Sloooow back and keep yer noggin down!

The funny thing is that, when the student catches one solid, he only tells you he swung “smooth” after the fact. His tempo didn’t change at all, because when he tries to do it again, he hits a foot behind it or slices the cover in half.

[MonteScheinblum]

13 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

The funny thing is that, when the student catches one solid, he only tells you he swung “smooth” after the fact. His tempo didn’t change at all, because when he tries to do it again, he hits a foot behind it or slices the cover in half.

Then says, “See, I got quick on that one.”

 

I play a dirty trick on golfers all the time after they make these kinds of analyses of their swings.  I reverse the good and bad one and ask them to show my why one was bad and one was good.  They give a detailed explanation of why the good one was good and the bad one is bad.

 

When I tell them what I did, they either laugh or take a swing at me and then laugh.  Universally they understand that all of their swings on a given day look exactly the same.  Their Hogan, Norman, Wolfe and Tiger 2000 also look the same and they are ready to progress.

[Hilts1969]

15 hours ago, MPStrat said:

I have said dozens of times that I like some of their videos. I don’t know how many more times I have to say it.

 

Praise indeed 🙂

[baudi]

17 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

How do we keep focusing on "tour averages" when the first 1/4 of the entire video was related to the fact that AMG doesn't use "tour averages" in instruction? 

 

AMG uses tour averages a lot. But in general AMG does not serve these figures as the ultimate benchmark. 

In defence of ARB: If some one tells me  'The use of AVERAGES by themselves can easily give deceptive and misleading results'. I have no reason to disagree. And neither does AMG as they pointed out to look at the range and SD - to show they have a clue on the distribution of data points. (At least for non-skewed distribution patterns).  

 

However, I am hardly interested in the material AMG shows. No reason to criticize them because their videos are not for me. I would be more interested if AMG shows serious discrepancies in the data and possibly postulate new ideas.  

 

The numerous posts ARB wrote on this forum always left a positive remark to me. The flaming attitude of some here, does not. He posted his ideas here in acceptable terms but the boomerang effect via YT caused an avalanche of indiscrete behavior.   

[MK7Golf21]

10 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

I haven’t been around as long as some others but I don’t share the same memory of the glory days of many instructors taking part in discussion. I think most of that took place before I was a member.

It’s a bit more civil these days which is good I suppose. Back then you couldn’t say anything against what Iteach taught or everyone would gang up on you, most the slicefixer people bailed out or just stopped posting. I know slicefixer himself did. Then GG got real popular and kind of took over the instruction forum in a way even with some of the iteach guys, one of iteach’s influential posters went to see him and made a huge thread praising the method. Others got on board and huge debates started even against iteach because he has always taught using arms, even against slicefixer. 
 

Moderators cracked down, many banned and iteach left. He still posts in the junior golfers forum occasionally but nothing on swing instruction. There weren’t really any instructors that posted much imo. We had Fort Worth pro who posted occasionally but he bailed as well shortly after GG stuff went down it seems. 
 

Regarding the topic of this thread, using pro data. I can’t help but look at golftec, that’s basically how their lessons are from what I have seen. They take their pro measurements from a database, put a k vest/launch monitor on you to duplicate or get closer to the pros. That is the bulk of the lesson. 
 

I can’t help but see AMG’s lessons when I see them as very similar but on a much grander scale with a gears system as the measurement tool.

Edited November 4, 2023 by MK7Golf21

[Soloman1]

You can take technology even further. What does an elite swing feel like?

 

About 6 years ago, I had a system at the PGA Show that was total VR. You put on the 3D system coupled with a VR headset. It took only 5 minutes to get ready.

 

You stepped into a VR room and saw not only yourself as a full-size  avatar, but there was another full-size avatar of a tour pro.

 

You could walk around and view the tour avatar and see what was happening as it swung at any speed.

 

You could even “step into” the pro avatar and still see both. As the pro avatar moved, you could move with it in slow motion to copy the total body movement. Your avatar could be offset any amount from the pro avatar, but you’d see both.

 

You saw both avatars, yours and the pro. You could stop it anywhere and look at your arms, or hands, or club, or pelvis or shoulders, knees, wrist angles, etc., and see where they were compared with the pro swing from your view.

 

You could virtually touch screens on the virtual wall and look at a birds-eye view from any angle or rotation to see the two avatars.

 

You could follow the pro avatar from P1 to P3 (or anywhere) at any speed over and over to match the takeaway. Same for transition from P4 to P5 or 6 in slow motion repeatedly to match. P5 or 6 to P7.

 

I believe it was the most advanced system in the world (in my humble opinion) and the only one with full-body movement in real-time.

 

I had someone suited up and large TV screens showed what was happening in real time from inside the virtual room and you could see the avatar and player movements matched in real time.

 

About 170,000+ people attend the PGA Show. I’m sure 100,000 people walked by the booth over 3 days and saw it.

 

Only one instructor tried it and his reaction was, “I don’t get it.”

 

And that was 6 years ago. Either it was too far ahead of its time, or I’m an idiot. I’ll go with I’m an idiot.

 

It was at that moment I realized that a wide swath of people got into teaching golf because they got all C’s and D’s in high school.

 

Really good ones are rare.

 

Little plastic gimmicks and “Do This One Move to Gain 30 Yards!” is the path to success for many teachers and students.

 

🙂

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Soloman1

[Ghost of Snead]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

It’s a bit more civil these days which is good I suppose. Back then you couldn’t say anything against what Iteach taught or everyone would gang up on you, most the slicefixer people bailed out or just stopped posting. I know slicefixer himself did. Then GG got real popular and kind of took over the instruction forum in a way even with some of the iteach guys, one of iteach’s influential posters went to see him and made a huge thread praising the method. Others got on board and huge debates started even against iteach because he has always taught using arms, even against slicefixer. 
 

Moderators cracked down, many banned and iteach left. He still posts in the junior golfers forum occasionally but nothing on swing instruction. There weren’t really any instructors that posted much imo. We had Fort Worth pro who posted occasionally but he bailed as well shortly after GG stuff went down it seems. 

 

Most identifed instructors found out over time there was no benefit in arguing with anonymous posters, a lot of whom were banned multiple times and kept reappearing just to dog those instructors. 

 

[MK7Golf21]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Most identifed instructors found out over time there was no benefit in arguing with anonymous posters, a lot of whom were banned multiple times and kept reappearing just to dog those instructors. 

 

 

There was a couple of those but wasn't the majority, they were just annoying really but not that big of a deal. I wouldn't give them the credit of driving off instructors when it was only a couple.

 

I would say the instructors benefited from the instruction forum for sure, it def. brought them much more attention and lessons/$ (online and in person) that they wouldn't have had otherwise plus they liked debate it seemed. I enjoyed iteach's posts, was a pretty smart guy when it came to the golf swing. I didn't really care for the die hards though that got personal with any disagreement, that was the issue. I enjoy hearing and learning about more than one set of ideas when it came to the swing. I've learned a lot from AMG's youtube vid's and am generally pretty positive about them. 

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

You can take technology even further. What does an elite swing feel like?

 

 

 

good post. When that RoboGolfPro came out I thought it was pretty neat in that you could possibly feel what a pro's swing feels like to them at least in regards to the arms, club, impact and release. Getting those feels ingrained over and over via a robot so you would be doing it correctly. However, when you actually see the thing in action, it's very awkward and doesn't look like the tour pro at all let alone a normal golf swing. 

 

Would have been even better if you were allowed to move the club yourself but it put you in elite pro positions and hit a ball at slower speed. 

[Soloman1]

37 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

good post. When that RoboGolfPro came out I thought it was pretty neat in that you could possibly feel what a pro's swing feels like to them at least in regards to the arms, club, impact and release. Getting those feels ingrained over and over via a robot so you would be doing it correctly. However, when you actually see the thing in action, it's very awkward and doesn't look like the tour pro at all let alone a normal golf swing. 

 

Would have been even better if you were allowed to move the club yourself but it put you in elite pro positions and hit a ball at slower speed. 

 Yes, it moves the club handle only. Your body could be in any contorted position.

[MK7Golf21]

7 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 Yes, it moves the club handle only. Your body could be in any contorted position.

yeah, it needs to be improved. It’s pretty much useless the way it is now when I see it in action. Need to put in your body measurements into system, need to be able to move the club with your own muscles while it guides into correct positions and would help if you could actually make a slow swing with a real ball. 
 

There is lots of talk on these forums that the arms/club moves and body reacts which I partly agree with to it so maybe the body would react in more efficient ways. I would think the instructor would have to help with the body movement while on the thing as well so you aren’t all contorted.

[CasualLie]

5 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Regarding the topic of this thread, using pro data. I can’t help but look at golftec, that’s basically how their lessons are from what I have seen. They take their pro measurements from a database, put a k vest/launch monitor on you to duplicate or get closer to the pros. That is the bulk of the lesson. 
 

I can’t help but see AMG’s lessons when I see them as very similar but on a much grander scale with a gears system as the measurement tool.

 

Except that's not what a golf lesson is with AMG.  I spent two 1/2 days with the guys.  Day one get a baseline for me, so put on the sensors and did some swings on gears.  Not once did Mike compare me to any pro, refer to any pro average, show me any other swing.  What he did do was show me my "flaws" (none of which were new to me by the way).  With gears on and force plates what really helped were seeing the numbers of what I was doing and relating that back to a feel.  For example, at setup I had too much spine tilt, not by a large amount, a few degrees, but to use gears to see the numbers and calibrate with what I feel was huge.  I'm getting to the right angle which I can monitor on the screen and my brain is thinking whoa, you are stacked way towards lead side but I wasn't.

 

The second day we were at the private club nearby, obviously no gears, just a GC quad to validate again feels with desired ballflight / numbers.

 

It was pre pandemic when I went so not anywhere near as expensive as it is now.  So it was a long way to travel for a golf lesson, a city guy like me doesn't have to stray too far from Cartersville before thinking I'm going to "disappear" and no one will know, but why not?  I mixed with a business trip and a round at AAC!

[iacas]

8 hours ago, baudi said:

AMG uses tour averages a lot. But in general AMG does not serve these figures as the ultimate benchmark. 

In defence of ARB: If some one tells me  'The use of AVERAGES by themselves can easily give deceptive and misleading results'. I have no reason to disagree.

 

Even when someone uses an average… apply half a second of thought to say that if you're pretty close to the average, you're probably totally fine.

 

I had a student hitting 5° down with his club the other day. Tour average is 4.5° down or whatever… and he said "is that good?" I said "there are players winning millions of dollars a year hitting 2.5° down and 6.5° down. So as long as you're somewhat closet to the average and hitting good shots for you with the right launch characteristics… yes, you're fine."

 

Averages still matter. Averages don't mean "you need to exactly match this number."

 

IMO… they don't use averages that much. They often use small ranges. They'll give a few examples, and you'll notice, maybe, that the pelvis goes back 1.4", 1.8", 2.2", and 1.2"… and that may average out to 1.65", but… it's clearly a small range.

[Avid_but_mediocre]

On 11/2/2023 at 3:42 PM, MK7Golf21 said:

 

That's marketing 101 for youtube these days, they all use the same editor it looks like, LOL. 

There are now people specializing in YT thumbnail design because it's that important.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Even when someone uses an average… apply half a second of thought to say that if you're pretty close to the average, you're probably totally fine.

 

I had a student hitting 5° down with his club the other day. Tour average is 4.5° down or whatever… and he said "is that good?" I said "there are players winning millions of dollars a year hitting 2.5° down and 6.5° down. So as long as you're somewhat closet to the average and hitting good shots for you with the right launch characteristics… yes, you're fine."

 

Averages still matter. Averages don't mean "you need to exactly match this number."

 

IMO… they don't use averages that much. They often use small ranges. They'll give a few examples, and you'll notice, maybe, that the pelvis goes back 1.4", 1.8", 2.2", and 1.2"… and that may average out to 1.65", but… it's clearly a small range.

Range of acceptability can be discerned very easily from the data and the averages.  When 149 out of 150 tour players are in a range, it’s probably a good idea to be in that range.  
 

Where the anti average people have it right it’s what someone argued with me on this forum one day.

 

I said hitting 9 iron 155 when you only drive it 250 is swinging too hard on 9 iron.

 

Some guy chimes in that he has those numbers because a former LPGA tour player who knows what she’s doing more than me, fit his clubs with lofts that would launch at pga tour average.  His 9 iron was 38*.

 

I had no retort for that…lol

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, CasualLie said:

 

Except that's not what a golf lesson is with AMG.  I spent two 1/2 days with the guys.  Day one get a baseline for me, so put on the sensors and did some swings on gears.  Not once did Mike compare me to any pro, refer to any pro average, show me any other swing.  What he did do was show me my "flaws" (none of which were new to me by the way).  With gears on and force plates what really helped were seeing the numbers of what I was doing and relating that back to a feel.  For example, at setup I had too much spine tilt, not by a large amount, a few degrees, but to use gears to see the numbers and calibrate with what I feel was huge.  I'm getting to the right angle which I can monitor on the screen and my brain is thinking whoa, you are stacked way towards lead side but I wasn't.

 

The second day we were at the private club nearby, obviously no gears, just a GC quad to validate again feels with desired ballflight / numbers.

 

It was pre pandemic when I went so not anywhere near as expensive as it is now.  So it was a long way to travel for a golf lesson, a city guy like me doesn't have to stray too far from Cartersville before thinking I'm going to "disappear" and no one will know, but why not?  I mixed with a business trip and a round at AAC!

 

I'm going off live lessons I've seen of theirs. Those changes he suggested to you, having gears on it showed you had too much spine tilt to the right by a few degrees. How did he know you were off by a few degree's? It's from pro data in the database. You need some range/baseline which is acceptable from the numbers gears reports. I'm not saying this is a bad thing or a lesson shouldn't be done this way, it's just kind of how it works when using gears from what I have seen. I would def. take a lesson on gears from any reputable instructor.

 

I just threw golftec out there because they use a baseline as well or range. One of the best golf lessons I ever had was from Nick Clearwater, he just happened to be at golftec during the time but he is a great instructor. This was like in 2017 or so? Seriously, probably one of the best instructors I have been to, a little too caught up in the golftec teaching method but oh well.

 

5 hours ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Most identifed instructors found out over time there was no benefit in arguing with anonymous posters, a lot of whom were banned multiple times and kept reappearing just to dog those instructors. 

 

 

one more thing to add, this kind of happens when you take a very strict stance in what you teach and debate everyone else with a different view, it's only golf. He debated with slicefixer and took a very hard stance on what was right, slicefixer probably did as well. You open yourself to that sort of thing happening in an open forum. Slicefixer was and is a great instructor with good ideas, same with iteach. Better to be more like Chris Como IMO, that guy learns from everyone and teaches a spectrum of styles based on the player in front of him from GG to Mike Bender type stuff. 

[virtuoso]

5 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 Yes, it moves the club handle only. Your body could be in any contorted position.

I wouldn’t even mind that because even a chopper would probably learn faster with the handle held as a constant. The problem is the lower speed. As the club gets up to normal speeds, the clubhead suddenly has a lot of inertia and it exerts forces back that the golfer has to manage. 
 

This is why during the “get rid of your flip” era, even better players couldn’t manage the inertia, especially and obviously with a driver. The faster the head moves, the harder it is to artificially produce the 2D visuals of a “pretty” 2d passive release.

 

To sync up a high speed release, you really have to get your ducks in a row in the sequencing….it turns out the go/no-go for launch is before the transition.

 

When better players mismanage inertia, the just look disjointed, and the delivery numbers suffer. When Mr Havencamp mismanages inertia, it yanks him toward his toes and he just starts to fall over or take a step. He thinks he swung too hard but he really just swung too wrong.

Edited November 4, 2023 by virtuoso