AMG video on : setting the record straight on our golf swing analysis

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

 

Like in the last thread, AMG presented the data about arms lowering, the whole Milo crowd and MPStrat disagree because they don't feel the arms lowering in their swings. And that's totally fine, people need to feel their own things, as long as they are getting to the correct places in the correct time. The problem is sometimes AMG makes it sound like if you aren't "feeling" the data they are presenting (actively lowering the arms rather than passively) then you're doing it wrong, which clearly rubs the crowd that feels leaving the arms up the wrong way. That doesn't change the fact that the arms do lower as the 3D data collected has shown. Just different feels on how to do the same damn thing. 

I never saw anyone anywhere say arms don’t lower some amount.
 

My argument was that their shallowing video while disguised as pros vs ams leaned too heavily on their own preferences and that there is a spectrum of arm lowering and that their remarks and instruction in that video did not accurately depict that spectrum 

[slytown]

8 hours ago, Fhbrook23 said:

Of course they did, that's how jokes normally work.  Did you intentionally forget to mention all the instances like these where both AMG and Michael Neff clearly said that the teaser clip the night before was meant as a spoof.  Sounds like the pot calling the kettle deceptive. 

 

 

 

How many people do you think watched the short and didn't watch the actual video?

[Fhbrook23]

3 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I get it now, 3D golf swing analysis is for the elites and 2D is for the peasants. 

You do realize that the old videos you enjoy posting are only available because someone used the most elite tech available at the time.  Thankfully someone cared enough to make that investment for you then so you can enjoy it now.  I'd think you of all people would be thankful folks are investing in today's elite technology so "future you" can also take it for granted down the road.

[slytown]

16 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Agree with the term “averages”

 

I have seen people chase a trackman tour average chart and ruin their game.

 

What their videos offer is this.

 

Ranges of acceptability in movements most golfers are unaware of and are well outside.

 

I remember throwing a party when I got the AMM data that 149 out of 150 tour players are extending the lead wrist from p6-p8. 

 

The how to clear the hips video on how ams have greater movement in the opposite hip as pros is quite honestly the best technical video ever created to help ams understand better movement.  
 

The irony is every time I make a video on that narrative I get more hate than any other thing I put up.  
 

The big issues is this.  There are people who just don’t want to hear things outside their belief system and dismiss them with extreme prejudice.  It doesn’t matter how much data, or how many tour players say it, it’s wrong. 
 

You know what, that’s OK, doesn’t stop the rest of us from discussing better ways to do things.  My only issue is derailing discussions.  Happened to one of my clients here a few weeks back.  He was looking for a feel and discussion devolved into Monte sucks.  That’s a perfectly acceptable position to take, but not when it derails a discussion. 

 

I have used and taught shallow bounce pitching for years with great personal and teaching success.   My good friend JM has data and turned a mediocre short gamer into what can be argued is the best player in the world right now.

 

That didn’t fit my narrative a year ago, but I’d like to find out that’s easier, or at least an additional way to make people better.

 

Being dismissive of new ideas and/or ideas that don’t fit your way of doing things is a good way to be stagnant in both knowledge and execution.

 

AMG says it themselves. The data Gears provides is worthless without using it effectively in instruction. I'm a historian and we have the same problem in my field. People want us to point to data about populations, growth, literacy, etc. but unless we interpret the data and put those results in context, the data is near worthless.

 

Gears data is for teaching. Observing hips open at impact is one thing. Interpreting how that occurs and how to apply to each student is another. What I appreciate about AMG is that they have such a huge database of golfers that they can generalize. It's how proper research is done.

[Fhbrook23]

11 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

How many people do you think watched the short and didn't watch the actual video?

I don't know.  I'd think more watched the short just because it was short.  IF true, that would probably mean more people also saw all the posts saying it was a spoof than watched the actual video.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Fhbrook23

[Soloman1]

We’re flooded with clickbait from morning until night. If you think it was clickbait, it was nothing compared to 99% of golf instruction on ClickbaitTube.

 

3D is just a tool. Some tools are for research and some are for practical use. You look for patterns with research with high precision. You don’t need a tool to get started with a 15 handicap in front of you, except maybe a phone. But many people hate to see themselves swing a golf club or dance.

 

And when you do use it, you only need a couple of swings. A major reason for 3D is to validate something with the student. You can tell them they’re doing X, but they don’t believe you. Everybody knows everything now.

 

Hey, physical therapists still measure joints and internal/external shoulder rotation with a $5 plastic goniometer. It’s about as accurate as that 15 handicap with a 3-iron.

 

Sometimes people in technology and 3D get frustrated at people throwing nonsense-tipped darts when they have no idea how it works, how accurate it is, or the depth of work and knowhow that goes into building it and what is under the hood - anatomy, the complex math, testing, cross testing and validating between systems, error correction, etc.

 

Good enough for Grumman Aircraft and NASA; never good enough for GolfWRX.

 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Sometimes people in technology and 3D get frustrated at people throwing nonsense-tipped darts when they have no idea how it works, how accurate it is, or the depth of work and knowhow that goes into building it and what is under the hood - anatomy, the complex math, testing, cross testing and validating between systems, error correction, etc.

 

Good enough for Grumman Aircraft and NASA; never good enough for GolfWRX.

 

I don’t see many people questioning the accuracy of 3D data, although I think it’s ok to ask questions. 
 

I see people questioning some of the interpretation and presentation of the data 

[JayMas]

2 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I think we're generally in agreement there. What I maybe didn't expand upon when I was referring to "feels", maybe a more accurate term would "frame of reference". I feel like the AMG side is measuring arm lowering at a more absolute level, ie the frame of reference is the ground or something more 'static' in relation to the ground like the lumbar spine and/or hips. The Milo crowd feels their frame of reference entirely as the upper thoracic spine/rib-cage. Viewing arm lowering with that as a frame of reference, the amount or degrees of arm lowering is much minimized due to the side-bend, so that many who are in that camp don't "feel" arm lowering at all. This is especially apparent when their ideal model swings in 3D are the guys like DJ/Hovland who have a higher amount of thoracic side-bend. Then even when viewing the same data in gears they are viewing it from their own respective frames of reference so can be talking about the same thing, but still talking past each other. 

I think their overall point was simpler than this though. And it's that the vast majority of people trying to "feel" this keep arms up, try for super external rotation of the trail shoulder, get in right side bend and rotate hard crowd was doing it because that's what they thought was literally happening when it either wasn't or it wasn't to the degree they thought and was causing people to not move properly at all because they had a misconception of what movements were occurring.

 

So AMG's idea was two-fold: show in 3D what is actually happening with the arms and maybe encourage people to try and 'feel' what is real to change their movement patterns.

 

If someone came to them and moved properly in the transition and told Mike and Shawn they felt their arms stay up to achieve that, I don't think they are gonna say "no!"

Edited October 31, 2023 by JayMas

[Fhbrook23]

40 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I never saw anyone anywhere say arms don’t lower some amount.
 

My argument was that their shallowing video while disguised as pros vs ams leaned too heavily on their own preferences and that there is a spectrum of arm lowering and that their remarks and instruction in that video did not accurately depict that spectrum 

IIRC, didn't you say the arm didn't lower in half of the top  10?

I take it you have the full spectrum of their data to make that claim.  Will you please share that spectrum and note the range AMG left out of their video?  That truly would be deceitful and valuable to see.  

But if you actually don't have their spectrum of data, wouldn't you be the one making deceitful claims?  Don't you need to see the data to be able to make an honest claim about its accuracy?

[Zitlow]

23 minutes ago, Fhbrook23 said:

You do realize that the old videos you enjoy posting are only available because someone used the most elite tech available at the time.  Thankfully someone cared enough to make that investment for you then so you can enjoy it now.  I'd think you of all people would be thankful folks are investing in today's elite technology so "future you" can also take it for granted down the road.

 

I was just joking around but good point. 

[Hilts1969]

18 minutes ago, Fhbrook23 said:

IIRC, didn't you say the arm didn't lower in half of the top  10?

I take it you have the full spectrum of their data to make that claim.  Will you please share that spectrum and note the range AMG left out of their video?  That truly would be deceitful and valuable to see.  

But if you actually don't have their spectrum of data, wouldn't you be the one making deceitful claims?  Don't you need to see the data to be able to make an honest claim about its accuracy?

 

When one digs a hole so big that they cannot hope to escape it the only option is to keep digging. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Hilts1969

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I don't think that's an accurate description of that debate.

 

I think the two ends of the spectrum are something like:

• Trail arm widens, player is generally in less right side bend because they don't need to get the trail shoulder lower to the ground.
• Trail arm stays more flexed, player has to get the trail shoulder lower to the ground to get the club to the ground.

Golf swings exist across that spectrum, but those are almost the two end-points. You've got some Tour players who are farther to one side, and others who are farther to the other side.

 

I don't think that discussion was entirely about "feels." There are measurable differences in the rates at which golfers side bend, release trail elbow extension, etc.

 

See above

@Fhbrook23

 

The arm lowering thread is 80 some pages long. If you care this much, go back and read the full context instead of cherry picking one thing out of context 

[Fhbrook23]

7 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

When one digs a hole so big that they cannot hope to escape it the only option is to keep digging. 

Sounds spot on.

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I don't think that's an accurate description of that debate.

 

I think the two ends of the spectrum are something like:

• Trail arm widens, player is generally in less right side bend because they don't need to get the trail shoulder lower to the ground.
• Trail arm stays more flexed, player has to get the trail shoulder lower to the ground to get the club to the ground.

Golf swings exist across that spectrum, but those are almost the two end-points. You've got some Tour players who are farther to one side, and others who are farther to the other side.

 

I don't think that discussion was entirely about "feels." There are measurable differences in the rates at which golfers side bend, release trail elbow extension, etc.

 

A little off topic, but I think the "arm doesn't drop" crowd mistakenly gets the idea that trail arm widening is accompanied by losing the stretch across the left shoulder, which would certainly horrify me.

[Soloman1]

Lead arm adduction is probably the most important element of the swing talked about the least.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Soloman1
Autocorrect is stupid.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Lead arm adduction is probably the most important element of the swing talked about the least.

 

 

agree 

[virtuoso]

2 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Lead arm adduction in probably the most important element of the swing talked about the least.

Agreed on the ratio, also the front deltoid part can be overly helpful and ruin everything.

[me05501]

There are so many different styles of instruction (and marketing) out there. What is it that prevents viewers from being able to say "that's not for me" and scrolling down to find something that may better suit your style of learning? 

 

I can see AMG's content being very appealing to a certain type of learner: the engineer, the surgeon, the person who wants to have things fully explained in exhaustive detail and the guy who is obsessed with doing things the way the pros do it. The guy who chooses fly fishing over bass fishing. And maybe others. I'm not judging. 

 

If it isn't the right thing for you, then great. There are so many other options. Everyone is different. 

 

Personally I can't absorb any swing-related instruction that relies too heavily on physiological terminology. Adduction, flexion, extension, pronation, etc. Sure, I can stop listening/reading and take the necessary time to understand exactly what is meant by each term just like I could eventually parse out something written in a foreign language. But more likely I'm going to bypass it altogether and finds something that suits me better. 

 

We should view the instruction idea marketplace like a buffet. Take what we need and leave the rest. 

 

Instead a lot of people seem to treat it like a row of high-end restaurants while viewing themselves as the self-appointed food critic from the NYT! 

[airjammer]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

A little off topic, but I think the "arm doesn't drop" crowd mistakenly gets the idea that trail arm widening is accompanied by losing the stretch across the left shoulder, which would certainly horrify me.

It certainly has been implied in the past that lead arm is moving away from away from the chest towards the midline after a brief compressing against the chest in certain videos that belong to a certain channel that has made two videos now calling out specifically people that don’t see eye to eye with them on certain topics. 
 

These individuals said they answer every question that someone submits in the comment section and I submitted the question in the video in which they stated essentially the arms stay on the right side of the body and the pivot gets them to the ball and how this relates to their video not too long ago about the lead arm coming off the chest in the downswing…I got nothing. 
 

Imo nobody has a perfect record as far as instruction goes and never will because one person cure like feeling of holding the angles may be someone else’s curse. It comes down to how well the teacher can diagnose, communicate, and get buy in from the student in order to create a new path for that student to go down. These type of videos that call out opposing views, achieves nothing positive imo.  It just entrenches each side further in their beliefs. 

[virtuoso]

17 minutes ago, airjammer said:

It certainly has been implied in the past that lead arm is moving away from away from the chest towards the midline after a brief compressing against the chest in certain videos that belong to a certain channel that has made two videos now calling out specifically people that don’t see eye to eye with them on certain topics. 
 

These individuals said they answer every question that someone submits in the comment section and I submitted the question in the video in which they stated essentially the arms stay on the right side of the body and the pivot gets them to the ball and how this relates to their video not too long ago about the lead arm coming off the chest in the downswing…I got nothing. 
 

Imo nobody has a perfect record as far as instruction goes and never will because one person cure like feeling of holding the angles may be someone else’s curse. It comes down to how well the teacher can diagnose, communicate, and get buy in from the student in order to create a new path for that student to go down. These type of videos that call out opposing views, achieves nothing positive imo.  It just entrenches each side further in their beliefs. 

Not "exactly" what I mean about keeping slack out of the left shoulder/arm but agree with your points nonetheless.

Edited October 31, 2023 by virtuoso

[MK7Golf21]

40 minutes ago, me05501 said:

There are so many different styles of instruction (and marketing) out there. What is it that prevents viewers from being able to say "that's not for me" and scrolling down to find something that may better suit your style of learning? 

 

 

 

guess you weren't around for the instructor wars on the forums (slicefixer vs. dan, then because GG vs. dan who promoted more arms). Moderators cracked down on it finally and the fallout from that is we only have Monte around, lol. People take it way too serious like politics. Same thing with equipment if you check out those forums. 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by MK7Golf21

[airjammer]

5 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

guess you weren't around for the instructor wars on the forums (slicefixer vs. dan, then because GG vs. dan who promoted more arms). Moderators cracked down on it finally and the fallout from that is we only have Monte around, lol. People take it way too serious like politics. Same thing with equipment if you check out those forums. 

 

It’s perfectly reasonable for people to get invested in a certain ideology because they are putting their time and efforts into implementing some part of that ideology even if it’s just overall belief in the ideology. 
 

Everyone gets upset when someone tells them their efforts are all for not so they go into defense mode in an effort not to potentially have to admit to themselves or others that all that time away friends, family, work, or whatever wasted. 

[MonteScheinblum]

33 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

guess you weren't around for the instructor wars on the forums (slicefixer vs. dan, then because GG vs. dan who promoted more arms). Moderators cracked down on it finally and the fallout from that is we only have Monte around, lol. People take it way too serious like politics. Same thing with equipment if you check out those forums. 

 

Actually most instructors enjoy the heated discussion.  GG and I have some different ideas on what goes on, but he and I are friends.  What we both deal with is keyboard warriors taking personal potshots at each of us on our channels that we delete.  
 

All the instructors eventually leave this place because they get tired of the constant unprovoked personal attacks and comments from people who don’t like their ideas.  
 

To me those comments are like the people who turn wide from the inside left turn lane and then honk at you and flip you off.  Shake my head and laugh at their lack of self awareness and bitterness, ignore and move on. 

[JayMas]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

There are so many different styles of instruction (and marketing) out there. What is it that prevents viewers from being able to say "that's not for me" and scrolling down to find something that may better suit your style of learning? 

 

I can see AMG's content being very appealing to a certain type of learner: the engineer, the surgeon, the person who wants to have things fully explained in exhaustive detail and the guy who is obsessed with doing things the way the pros do it. The guy who chooses fly fishing over bass fishing. And maybe others. I'm not judging. 

 

If it isn't the right thing for you, then great. There are so many other options. Everyone is different. 

 

Personally I can't absorb any swing-related instruction that relies too heavily on physiological terminology. Adduction, flexion, extension, pronation, etc. Sure, I can stop listening/reading and take the necessary time to understand exactly what is meant by each term just like I could eventually parse out something written in a foreign language. But more likely I'm going to bypass it altogether and finds something that suits me better. 

 

We should view the instruction idea marketplace like a buffet. Take what we need and leave the rest. 

 

Instead a lot of people seem to treat it like a row of high-end restaurants while viewing themselves as the self-appointed food critic from the NYT! 

These are totally fair, subjective takes when it relates to how people learn. But, I'm not sure it's really what the latest video is about or really what the central topic is.

 

I think regardless of your learning style, it's wild to equate that as a 121 relationship with what's biomechanically going on in the golf swing and the measurement of that. That's the issue, so many people applying "how they learn, and the things they've heard" or whatever beliefs they have as a direct replacement for advanced measurement systems and actual experts.

 

I'm sure AMG (and many other instructors) distill this and don't literally teach it when they give lessons depending on the type of learner on the lesson tee.

 

But to say the data is wrong, the measurement is wrong, they (and others are wrong) about how they are analyzing it and the insight generated from it is wrong is just people completely overexaggerating their own ability/understanding about something that is beyond them. I don't understand why it's so hard for someone to say what you said early on in this post and accept that maybe they don't get how to interpret gears, and actual experts might have a leg up here...regardless of whether or not a "keep my arms up" feel works for them (I'm oversimplifying that part, but I think it makes sense).

[MK7Golf21]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Actually most instructors enjoy the heated discussion.  GG and I have some different ideas on what goes on, but he and I are friends.  What we both deal with is keyboard warriors taking personal potshots at each of us on our channels that we delete.  
 

All the instructors eventually leave this place because they get tired of the constant unprovoked personal attacks and comments from people who don’t like their ideas.  
 

To me those comments are like the people who turn wide from the inside left turn lane and then honk at you and flip you off.  Shake my head and laugh at their lack of self awareness and bitterness, ignore and move on. 

 

Right, it wasn't really the instructors causing the issue just the keyboard warriors who got behind them, then got personal etc. The funny thing is most of the time they are 15 handicaps. Golf is hard enough as is, I prefer being open to ideas because I have had success with many different theories.

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Right, it wasn't really the instructors causing the issue just the keyboard warriors who got behind them, then got personal etc. The funny thing is most of the time they are 15 handicaps. Golf is hard enough as is, I prefer being open to ideas because I have had success with many different theories.

 

 

When there is an exchange of ideas on how something should be done, it’s a difference of opinion.  When someone argues against something that’s actually been measured, it’s ignorance.  

[virtuoso]

@airjammerI'd go further, people don't like to be told they're wrong about anything, for any reason. I don't like being told I'm wrong.

Edited October 31, 2023 by virtuoso

[Hilts1969]

3 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

I'd go further, people don't like to be told they're wrong about anything, for any reason. I don't like being told I'm wrong.

 

I disagree:-)

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

6 hours ago, me05501 said:

Are guys who craft super long replies where they quote 10 different other posts completely oblivious to the fact that most readers just scroll past all that mess? 

The need to be right is strong on the Internet...  (Cue the xkcd cartoon about why he hasn't gone to bed yet.)

 

@iacas, I love your instruction and your posts at your other site.  I've not watched the AMG video in question, but on its face as described here, and in the email I received, it comes off as awfully damned petty.  A classic example of 'punching down'.  Like, really?  You both don't have anything better to do?

 

Yep, golfarb made some comments about their statistical analysis.  May or may not be valid; I haven't delved into it.  And you, AMG, Monte, etc...must get incensed having to constantly deal with a bunch of Internet know-nothings taking shots at your teachings.  I understand that.

 

Ultimately, though: who gives a $&÷t if Joe Random has a problem with your teaching?  Who has the professional business, the hundreds to tens of thousands of paying students and subscribers for your content?  Not him.  Why then give the guy legitimacy by calling him out in person and entertaining his point of view?  Unless you're worried that the criticism might have a nugget of truth that you need to try and disprove.  

 

Which is the connotation you should be trying to avoid.

 

Now, I'll go watch the video. (As I sit here, waiting for this stupid case of Covid to go away.)

[MK7Golf21]

11 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

When there is an exchange of ideas on how something should be done, it’s a difference of opinion.  When someone argues against something that’s actually been measured, it’s ignorance.  

 

That's true. Kind of like the lead wrist extending in the downswing on pretty much all the pro's measured. Then it becomes what is actually causing that for a golfer. Some could feel like they are using a prosendr the entire downswing but still have extension going on while some could feel active casting, both hitting it good.