Jump to content
2024 Cognizant Classic WITB Pics ×

Should have been .370 across the board


rbpwrx

Recommended Posts

44 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

 

but we already know that, as a matter of simple rudimentary physics, that *all else being equal* a larger-diameter shaft is going to have more torsional stiffness than one of smaller diameter.

 

Therefore, I am taking it as a *given* that torsional stability increases, as a rule, with diameter (compare any FW and HY shafts OF the same make, model, flex, and weight, and there is generally a 1.0* reduction in torque as you step from .335 to .370).

 

While true, as you mentioned, everything else is never going to be equal when it comes to comparing .370" .350" and .335" shaft tip designs.   In fact, we can safely say that they are specifically designed differently because of the different tip diameter.  So the question really should be,  "how well can they compensate for the smaller tip size with other design decisions?"

 

As I mentioned before, I don't think the published torque values are really telling us anything important for multiple reasons (possibly different measurement methods or even different design intents due to the different club type).    A better comparison would be between .350" and .335" driver shafts.

 

50 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

But the significance is: you can get the same performance from less material.

 

True.  In fact that's why .350" tips used to be more common for stock shafts - they were more economical.    But advances in manufacturing techniques or advances in shaft design have likely made that difference much less significant to the point where they don't even bother with .350" tip designs any more.   I can't say for sure, but I doubt it's enough to really make a difference in weight - or we'd likely be seeing more .350" tips in the ultra-light shafts.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, ode said:

Understood....and wanting to point out to others who are looking on and may experiment with this that you'd need a raw shaft to start with....and

I've read through the plethora of threads started by @rbpwrx re: torque🙃

 

I've done this experiment but for a different reason.  Wishon hybrid shafts are .335 so I've tried as historically I've used a heavy weight shaft and the red, black and white hybrid shafts offer ability to try that out.  I also use a much heavier head then standard so the expiriment went OK as I matched head weight of fwy head and trimmed to the corresponding hybrid the shaft called for or soft stepped as needed.  As it relates to this thread the Wishon torque ratings are not likely to OP standards😉

 

Sorry for the plethora! I'm a little obsessed 🙂

  • Haha 1

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not a true test, b/c it's only hybrid length, and it's 29*f here in MA and feels like -29*f, but I stuck a 90g Diamana D+ X-flex in a Titey 917F head, and gonna go hit a few ice balls. That D+ always felt way too soft to me, so curious if the lighter head 'stiffens' it up. 2" more length in future tests will of course change swing weight, flex, and torque yet again.

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

While true, as you mentioned, everything else is never going to be equal when it comes to comparing .370" .350" and .335" shaft tip designs.   In fact, we can safely say that they are specifically designed differently because of the different tip diameter.  So the question really should be,  "how well can they compensate for the smaller tip size with other design decisions?"

 

As I mentioned before, I don't think the published torque values are really telling us anything important for multiple reasons (possibly different measurement methods or even different design intents due to the different club type).    A better comparison would be between .350" and .335" driver shafts.

 

 

True.  In fact that's why .350" tips used to be more common for stock shafts - they were more economical.    But advances in manufacturing techniques or advances in shaft design have likely made that difference much less significant to the point where they don't even bother with .350" tip designs any more.   I can't say for sure, but I doubt it's enough to really make a difference in weight - or we'd likely be seeing more .350" tips in the ultra-light shafts.

 

 


I suspect the economics of a single standard for wood shafts outweighs any marginal difference in materials requirements.

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, three words: Ho. Lee. Crap.

 

I wasn't expecting much. It's cold, body's tight, balls are like rocks. But first three swings with the hybrid-shafted 3W, straight down the middle, 220 carry (my normal hybrid), one fade, one straight, one draw (on purpose, even), landing within yards of each other.

 

My caddy was delighted (see photo). She doesn't have the best eyesight, but she can hear them whistling overhead, and she loves when they're in the short grass. Which they were for the next seven swings. And then I got overconfident and yanked one. It was a freaking bomb, but it was left. Had to be at least as far as I normally hit 3W on a good swing.

 

But this thing feels incredibly stable - still flexy, still smooth - but very different from the shaft I had in my hybrid. Even though it's the same damn shaft! Amazing what a little headweight difference will do.

 

Now of course this isn't really a good test of anything, except maybe a shorter fairway wood (definitely considering it). Or a slightly heavier shaft.

 

But I'm convinced that the characteristics of the .370" tip, including lower torque, had everything to do with how well the clubhead followed my hands. Very different from a normal FW experience, for me.

 

I went on to hit at least 15 shots with the club, and only missed one fairway. Last hole, high climbing fade that landed on a dime @220, rolled out a couple yards, second ball a long sweeping draw that landed 240 and rolled out another 20.

 

Very very satisfying results, especially under these conditions. Can't wait to build a 42 inch-er. As always, YMMV! 
 

IMG_9030.jpeg.f38c1abd00f07d6bc159b97e9316fb21.jpeg

 

Edited by rbpwrx

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup, it's the off-season up here -> going down rabbit holes kills time and satisfies curiosities -> I'm all for exploring non-mainstream club-building ideas.  👍

 

^^^ the OP's post above now has me curious .....
 

As mentioned in my previous post,  I have a TSR1 23* 9W head in transit to me and a TSR1 23* Hybrid with Evenflow White 90S is already in my bag.  Also in transit are new uncut EFW 90S Hybrid shafts and a new uncut EFW 75S Driver shaft.  I also have an EFW 65S 5W shaft here.  As I have both "genres" of 23* heads, and a pile of shafts and adapters, I'll do some mixing and matching and see if I discern anything worthwhile.

 

I run out of swing-speed at a certain point and looking to find/build a very reliable club to fit under my driver and above my 23* hybrid.   My 20* hybrid is reliable but really not much longer than my 23* ( I have GC3 at home for data )  -> either 20/23* club is essentially interchangeable for me.  Though I'm more confident with my 23* as the shaft is 3/8" shorter.  

 

So I thought I'd try a lighter and slightly longer FW shaft in my 20* Hybrid head -> lighter hopefully getting me more SS.  So I did make up a 65g FW shaft ( Ping Tour 65 Reg, a leftover sitting around ) with the 20* Hybrid head and playing to 41.25".  It provided the added distance I was after, but reliability was not worth gaming -> maybe I need more reps with that club.  I'm not used to that Ping Tour shaft, so I may cut down my EFW 5W 65S shaft as I'm quite used to the EFW profile, or build up that new EFW 75S I have coming.

 

I'm very used to hitting hybrids throughout the course of a round, so no surprises when I pull it from the bag.  When I used to game FW's ( 3W/4W/5W ) I might only reach for it 1-2 times a round ( greedy for the bit added length ) , so very little confidence when having to execute the swing off the deck.  I'd only reach for them if I had a nice flat stance and a pretty wide open landing zone.  But I'd flub them often enough and come up saying to myself  "you donkey, you shoulda hit a hybrid you greedy ... !  ).  Oh the fun !

 

 

  • Like 1

WITB for 2023  |  Titleist Hybrid-5 Stand Bag
Titleist TSi2 10*  |  Miyazaki Kusala Black 61X

Titleist TSR1 20* & 26* Hybrids  |  Evenflow White 90S

Edel SMS Pro 5-PW |  Steelfiber i110cw-S

Edel SMS GW & LW  |  Steelfiber i110cw-S

Putter  |  Mizuno OMOI-03 Nickel Finish, stock grip

Grips    |  All Clubs With CP2 Wrap Jumbo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Promising development. So I actually have an 85 TX Tour Green wood and an 85 TX Tour Green hybrid shaft. And two 915Fd fairway heads at 13.5°. So I can set up a legit head-to-head where the only significant variable is the diameter of the tip. On paper, the difference between 2.6* torque and 2.2*. Otherwise, same length, weight, grip, profile. I really am curious how different they feel. Stay tuned, happening tomorrow!

 

IMG_9041.jpeg.83a507e2e8ecd709e0c04bd55d242362.jpeg

 

Edited by rbpwrx

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, ARL67 said:

Yup, it's the off-season up here -> going down rabbit holes kills time and satisfies curiosities -> I'm all for exploring non-mainstream club-building ideas.  👍

 

^^^ the OP's post above now has me curious .....

 

How do you like those Steelfiber i110s? I've been thinking about one for a 3i...

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, you are committed to the project with your acquisition of 2 identical heads and those Tour Green shafts !

 

I've been using SF i110cw and i95cw for many years now,  no desire to go back to steel.  Though I have a set of Edel SMS arriving soon with C-Taper Lite Regulars for bag #2, so might stick with those and see I how I feel about revisiting steel.  I always have a set of SF on hand in case I have a re-shafting emergency. 😁

 

 

  • Like 1

WITB for 2023  |  Titleist Hybrid-5 Stand Bag
Titleist TSi2 10*  |  Miyazaki Kusala Black 61X

Titleist TSR1 20* & 26* Hybrids  |  Evenflow White 90S

Edel SMS Pro 5-PW |  Steelfiber i110cw-S

Edel SMS GW & LW  |  Steelfiber i110cw-S

Putter  |  Mizuno OMOI-03 Nickel Finish, stock grip

Grips    |  All Clubs With CP2 Wrap Jumbo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, ARL67 said:

Wow, you are committed to the project with your acquisition of 2 identical heads and those Tour Green shafts !

 

I've been using SF i110cw and i95cw for many years now,  no desire to go back to steel.  Though I have a set of Edel SMS arriving soon with C-Taper Lite Regulars for bag #2, so might stick with those and see I how I feel about revisiting steel.  I always have a set of SF on hand in case I have a re-shafting emergency. 😁

 

Already had the heads and shafts! Tour Green 105TX was one of my favorite shafts, so I went on a buying spree a couple years ago. Not as good in the woods. Handy now, though!

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alrighty. There's a significant weight difference (about 10g, hybrid shaft is heavier, partially b/c I had to extend it 1"), and I was wrong about the heads being identical - one is 15* and one 13.5* I put the heavier head on the heavier shaft to keep swing weight similar, but will switch them around during testing. Also, graphics are about 3" higher on the wood shaft, which may be normal, or it may indicate tipping of the hybrid, which was an eBay pull. I believe the 3W was new, and I probably tipped it 1". Anyway, looking forward to this afternoon - it's a balmy, muddy 43*f here in western MA!

 

twin-TGs-370-test.jpeg.17fb96b6369bb1cf66472e78129ab275.jpeg

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/29/2023 at 4:28 PM, rbpwrx said:

But I'm convinced that the characteristics of the .370" tip, including lower torque, had everything to do with how well the clubhead followed my hands. Very different from a normal FW experience, for me.

 

This could easily be the placebo effect... you've posted a ton in various threads about how you need low torque and now you've convinced yourself that a .370 tip is better, so I'm not surprised you're hitting good shots with that set up.  The only way to know for sure that the low torque and/or tip size is making the difference is to do a blind test where you don't know which shaft you're hitting and then you can objectively compare the results.  Unfortunately there's just no way for you to do that... even your Aldila Tour Green experiment doesn't qualify because you've already noted that there are visible differences between the two shafts, so you'll always know which one you're swinging.

  • Like 1

Titleist TSR4, 7.25*, Speeder VC 8.2 Tour Spec S
Titleist TS3, 14.25*, Speeder VC 8.2 Tour Spec X
Titleist 818 H2 17*, Speeder VC 8.8 HB Tour Spec S
Mizuno MP H5, 3 iron, C Taper Lite X
Mizuno MP H5 (4&5), MP 5 (6-PW), DG X100 SSx1
Cleveland RTX6 54/12 (bent to 53*) Raw & 58/10 Black, DG Spinner
Mizuno M.Craft OMOI Type 2 Blue Ion
Ball - Titleist AVX Yellow

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, grochol17 said:

This could easily be the placebo effect... you've posted a ton in various threads about how you need low torque and now you've convinced yourself that a .370 tip is better, so I'm not surprised you're hitting good shots with that set up.  The only way to know for sure that the low torque and/or tip size is making the difference is to do a blind test where you don't know which shaft you're hitting and then you can objectively compare the results.  Unfortunately there's just no way for you to do that... even your Aldila Tour Green experiment doesn't qualify because you've already noted that there are visible differences between the two shafts, so you'll always know which one you're swinging.

 

True. But. I've played many shafts I had no idea of their torque rating (my OG gamers for years for example, ACCRA SC M5s), and kept coming back to a few that just 'felt good,' and only discovered much later that they were especially low in torque. Which just makes sense, growing up on steel - not particularly stiff (my old X100 woods feel like licorice now), but notable low TQ. Anyway, I think it's not confirmation bias at this point, but just confirmation. It's been 30 years figuring this out. I'm only sharing in case it helps someone else with similar experience. Mostly interested now in the balance between flex profile and the low TQ I like. Really love the VS Proto, but the bend point is low. Similar to some of the ACCRA line. Looking for TQ down around 2* but a more linear flex with a slight bias toward higher BP. That seems to be a unicorn. Still looking.

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sure you are aware the fairway and hybrid shafts have different raw lengths, weights, and balance points.  The Tour Greens will not be an Apples to Apples comparison.  Power to you for experimenting and trying out of the box ideas though!

 

In regards to other low torque shafts, have you tried UST ProForce VST Black 75 (2.5 torque), 85 (2.0), 95 (2.0) shafts? 

  • Like 1

Have Fun - Ready Golf - Repair Divots/Marks - FORE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

I am sure you are aware the fairway and hybrid shafts have different raw lengths, weights, and balance points.  The Tour Greens will not be an Apples to Apples comparison.  Power to you for experimenting and trying out of the box ideas though!

 

In regards to other low torque shafts, have you tried UST ProForce VST Black 75 (2.5 torque), 85 (2.0), 95 (2.0) shafts? 


Yes, I'm aware, but was the best I could do with what I had in the shop (and pretty much the best you can do if you're trying to compare FW to HY shafts).

 

And yeah, I know the VTS Shafts, they are on my shortlist to try, looking forward to the black in 2.0* 80g, just haven't found an affordable enough one yet!

 

I actually really like the feel of UST stuff, crisp and snappy. Have an Elements Chrome 65 TX I like a lot. It's sort of a generic feel, but good generic. 👍

  • Like 1

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

Alrighty. There's a significant weight difference (about 10g, hybrid shaft is heavier, partially b/c I had to extend it 1"), and I was wrong about the heads being identical - one is 15* and one 13.5* I put the heavier head on the heavier shaft to keep swing weight similar, but will switch them around during testing. Also, graphics are about 3" higher on the wood shaft, which may be normal, or it may indicate tipping of the hybrid, which was an eBay pull. I believe the 3W was new, and I probably tipped it 1". Anyway, looking forward to this afternoon - it's a balmy, muddy 43*f here in western MA!

 

twin-TGs-370-test.jpeg.17fb96b6369bb1cf66472e78129ab275.jpeg

 

Man, you are da man!!!! 

 

Thanks for doing it for us. Love seeing all this.

 

Let us know how you do.

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a RIP Alpha Red Eyes 80S  ( from the Titleist 910 days ) and it is 2.2 torque. 

  • Thanks 1

WITB for 2023  |  Titleist Hybrid-5 Stand Bag
Titleist TSi2 10*  |  Miyazaki Kusala Black 61X

Titleist TSR1 20* & 26* Hybrids  |  Evenflow White 90S

Edel SMS Pro 5-PW |  Steelfiber i110cw-S

Edel SMS GW & LW  |  Steelfiber i110cw-S

Putter  |  Mizuno OMOI-03 Nickel Finish, stock grip

Grips    |  All Clubs With CP2 Wrap Jumbo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ARL67 said:

I have a RIP Alpha Red Eyes 80S  ( from the Titleist 910 days ) and it is 2.2 torque. 

 

Yup, I put a 70X red eyes in a Yonex 380 9* (so cool you can get all this 'cutting-edge' gear from 10 yrs ago for almost nothing - thanks for being so fickle, golfers! Definitely keep putting more work into your gear than your swings!)(Pot, kettle.)
I found it even more tight in flex than torque. Really firm. Think I prefer the opposite. Aldila tends to overcook flex. Same with the Protopype 80X I have in FW.

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, results:

 

Well, the two clubs are pretty different. I was trying to do blind, so kept them on the ground behind me, tried to look at only the grass or the grip, but could feel the weight difference immediately. 10-12g is apparently a lot.

 

Still, tried to put exactly the same swing on them. First shots with the wood shaft were a couple hooks. First with the hybrid was a stripe long, then a flare.

 

That showed me the difference immediately. The hybrid was WAY more stout. (I had never played this shaft before, was in my backlog of bargain TGs off the 'Bay, this one from the dad of a college player who evidently tipped it a LOT, b/c it was hard to elevate w/ almost no kick. I could imagine with a 20g heavier hybrid head it would feel great. But the 3W head wasn't enough to activate it. I had to swing strong, and up on it, like with my chopped down OG Blue. Super firm.)

 

Anyway, so I gave up on swinging them the same. Shafts were too different. With a stronger swing on the hybrid, it was super stable and I could send it. If I quit on the swing, right miss. (One thing I love about a really stable shaft is how hard you can go after it. Helped that I was also bagging my short stack of X7s. Matching feels.)

 

The wood was just a regular 3W, like my others. TX tipped an inch. Make a good, balanced swing and don't rush it, the kick elevates and sends it.

 

(The Diamana-shafted 40" 3W above was better than either, by a lot. Smoother shaft, shorter, a little heavier + light head = magic. Couldn't miss with it.)

Verdict: loved the stability of the hybrid shaft in the FW head. Gonna snag something a touch smoother, in raw length (probably CK Blue or Rogue Black, 80TX, both bargains on the Bay. Set myself a $40 limit on components I've pretty much been sticking to, unless a steal comes along in something fancier). Will update when I build the new one.

Thanks to everyone for the adapter-interchangeability tip, esp ARL67 and Valtiel. Makes this experiment SO much easier. Onward!

 

Edited by rbpwrx
  • Like 1

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I was playing around with my TSR1 9W 23* FW head, with both Titleist EFW 65 5W shaft ( shortened from stock 5W length), and EFW 90S Hybrid shaft, both playing to within 1/4" playing length.  I have several weights for the TSR heads so I can dial in optimal swing-weight.  I preferred, and had better results, with the Hybrid shaft, but I'm sure it has to do with total weight and perhaps the added stoutness of the Hybrid.  Sure, I could go out and buy a heavy FW shaft, but my curiosity has been satisfied.

 

I don't think one could ever do an Apples-to-Apples 0.335 FW and .370 Hybrid shaft comparison as the layups & flex profiles would surely be different.  But at least if gives one an opportunity ( in the case of Titleist FW/Hybrid adapter compatibility ) to try another genre of shafts if they so choose.

  • Thanks 1

WITB for 2023  |  Titleist Hybrid-5 Stand Bag
Titleist TSi2 10*  |  Miyazaki Kusala Black 61X

Titleist TSR1 20* & 26* Hybrids  |  Evenflow White 90S

Edel SMS Pro 5-PW |  Steelfiber i110cw-S

Edel SMS GW & LW  |  Steelfiber i110cw-S

Putter  |  Mizuno OMOI-03 Nickel Finish, stock grip

Grips    |  All Clubs With CP2 Wrap Jumbo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, ARL67 said:

So I was playing around with my TSR1 9W 23* FW head, with both Titleist EFW 65 5W shaft ( shortened from stock 5W length), and EFW 90S Hybrid shaft, both playing to within 1/4" playing length.  I have several weights for the TSR heads so I can dial in optimal swing-weight.  I preferred, and had better results, with the Hybrid shaft, but I'm sure it has to do with total weight and perhaps the added stoutness of the Hybrid.  Sure, I could go out and buy a heavy FW shaft, but my curiosity has been satisfied.

 

I don't think one could ever do an Apples-to-Apples 0.335 FW and .370 Hybrid shaft comparison as the layups & flex profiles would surely be different.  But at least if gives one an opportunity ( in the case of Titleist FW/Hybrid adapter compatibility ) to try another genre of shafts if they so choose.


Excellent! That's +2 for hybrid shaft in fairway head. Who will be next in this highly subjective and unscientific flashmob experiment?

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Note: if anyone else tries this, when you take the retaining ring off the hybrid adapter, you can lose the upper adapter cog. Trust me on this. In my case, since I always play C1, a dot of superglue did the trick. Tape of course would also work. 

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Update: Just received a Riptide MX 80X 6.5 hybrid, new uncut, and via the adapter trick fit it into a 915Fd 13.5* FW head. Limited sample size of maybe a dozen swings, and it was super cold here in western MA today, everything felt brittle, even the shafts, but MAN that's a great combo. I went straight in, no cutting tip or butt (and a fairway head is @ 20g lighter than hybrid, so the shaft will play stiffer), but it was lasers. Could not get it off line. Managed to make a full swing several times through my 2 gloves and 4 sweaters, and this thing SENT it. Now it may feel like a noodle when the temps pop back up, but the very low torque was evident in the tight dispersion, especially with the lighter head. Can't wait to try it again tomorrow. Really think I'm on to something here (hybrid shaft into FW head to take advantage of lower torque, and relax a little on flex).

 

EvenFlow-MX-915Fd.jpeg.e93a4e451ddf019faf9408c73011e3a3.jpeg

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually a pretty informative and pithy vid from TT: 
 

 

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/20/2023 at 4:39 PM, rbpwrx said:

The more I learn about shafts and carbon layups and the balance between torque and flex and profile the more convinced I become that .335 was the WRONG standard for woods.

 

We put this spindly little neck on the end of a stick some guys are swinging over 150mph and try to prevent it from bending and twisting right before a heavy 200g+ end weight.

 

We trashed the one thing that would have made that easy: DIAMETER.

Look at the specs for any hybrid shaft. They are almost uniformly 1.0* tighter in torque than their wood shaft brethren. Same for flex. Most guys report more confidence and better results with their hybrid than their driver. Is that partially due to length? Sure. But I'll bet you anything it also has to do with reduced torque and flex near the tip. Which is almost entire due to tip diameter.

WHY couldn't all clubs be .370 parallel standard? You could put any shaft in any head, tip any shaft any amount for all kinds of creative gapping, you'd SAVE material and weight just by increasing diameter - i.e. free stability, cheaper shafts. Plus, our woods, particularly driver, would LOOK more meaty and substantial, less whippy, which might give some players more confidence.

There are all kinds of other advantages I can think of. At one point we had a .350 standard. Which at least made a little more sense. But why not keep it simple? ONE standard? One reamer to buy. One size ferrule. Is there ANY reason we made the longest shafts inherently the weakest?!?

 


The 0.350" had a little more resin to protect the shaft from "outside agents", but even if resin does not really change flex or stiffness, it does on the weakest flexes, while its not really a problem to make them strong enough, even for a 150 mph player. This is the reason for why Tom Wishon makes 0.335 hybrid models, where the hosel is stainless steel who can be modified to 0.370 if we want that. 

If the debate was, why does 0.355 Taper tip shaft and hosels still exist for irons and wedges?, i would be ALL IN, and say go 0.370 for all, since 0.355 tapers makes no sense what so ever, its even more expensive to make them, since it demands a step extra in production. (dont mix up constant wgt and descending wgt now, its got nothing to do with my suggestion)

Edited by Howard_Jones
  • Like 2

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ShortGolfer said:

Taper tips may be cheaper to make if you have initial production in overseas and final assembly  and quality control in the USA.

Factor in the cost of making sure the order is exactly what you think you ordered and not have 7 iron shafts labeled as 8 iron shafts.

Qualy what control?
Even in China, Vietnam, Thailand or where ever you make them, taper tip is 1 extra step in production, and NOT needed, it makes no sense what so ever.

  • Like 1

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The idea is that if you make them in a country like China or Vietnam, the additional cost of adding that step is cheap compared to doing it in the United States for final assembly.

 

Customized wedges.  If the wedge shafts are taper tipped in Vietnam and assembled in the USA, the .355 shafts are easily checked upon arrival and stored for later use.

Fixtures could be made so it is obvious when someone accidentally installs something other than a wedge shaft in a wedge head.  Uh, the shaft doesn't fit.  Something is wrong.

 

As I get older I learn ways of avoiding mistakes when I forget stuff.

Edited by ShortGolfer
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

The idea is that if you make them in a country like China or Vietnam, the additional cost of adding that step is cheap compared to doing it in the United States for final assembly.

 

Customized wedges.  If the wedge shafts are taper tipped in Vietnam and assembled in the USA, the .355 shafts are easily checked and stored for later use.

Fixtures could be made so it is obvious when someone accidentally installs something other than a wedge shaft in a wedge head.


By why use Taper tips at all? Explain the reason for why they are still made?

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Qualy what control?
Even in China, Vietnam, Thailand or where ever you make them, taper tip is 1 extra step in production, and NOT needed, it makes no sense what so ever.


Not to mention the ability to infinitely step, soft or hard, deviate from the half inch standard, etc. so that's one point of consensus.

 

But I continue to be struck by how much extra stability you get from mere geometry. Hybrid shaft in fairway head plays was stiffer and straighter. Which means you can go lighter, or softer, to achieve the same "profile" with a 370 tip. Saves material and energy. And no limit to how soft you can go! 
 

I suppose the only danger is in really soft flexes, perhaps there would be a slightly greater chance of shaft breakage right above the hosel. But only if Borgmeyer is swinging it!

 

 

Taylormade R7 Quad TP 8.5* w/ Aldila Rogue SIlver 125msi 70TX

Titleist 915Fd 13.5* w/ ACCRA FX 470 M5+

Titleist TS2 17* hybrid w/ Aldila VS Proto 'ByYou' 95X

Titleist U500 20° w/ MMT 125 TX (HSx1)

Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 0 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies
    • 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Tuesday #1
       
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Hardy - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Seamus Power - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Hadwin - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Kurt Kitayama - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Byeong Hun An - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nicolai Hojgaard - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JT Poston - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Dunlap - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Alex Smalley - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pau Gasol WITB (2x NBA Champion, 6x All-Star) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Josh Allen WITB (NFL Quarterback, Buffalo Bills) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Matt Kuchar - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JJ Spaun - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Svensson - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Scott (mini) - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Taylor Moore - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach Golf Links (holes 7 & 8) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Odyssey putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Lucas Glover going to test black Srixon ZX5 & ZX7 irons - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Justin Thomas wrist training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Stephen Sweeney's Putting Ballistic putting training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Chris Kirk club changes - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      The course was closed all day today (Monday) because of rain so no WITBs today
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #3
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #4
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #5
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Gary Woodland - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chris Gotterup - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ludvig Aberg - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Max Homa - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chan Kim - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Michael Block - SoCal PGA Section champ - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Hideki Matsuyama - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Collin Morikawa - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ryan Fox - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Robert MacIntyre - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Griffin - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Matthieu Pavon - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Alejandro Tosti - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jason Day WITB – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Daniel Berger WITB – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New 2Thumb grip - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chesson Hadley's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Kohles' new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Vincent Whaley's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ryo Hisatsune's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Charley Hoffman - custom Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      TaylorMade Tour X - X3 putter with milled metal insert - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Maverick McNealy's custom Odyssey staff bag - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Baller's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      New LA Golf single bend graphite putter shaft - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Swag Golf's - Channel 4 Headcovers - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf 120-gram prototype putter shaft – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf "gold edition" driver shaft – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf prototype putters with new "exotic metal" face insert – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 11 replies

×
×
  • Create New...