Swing Changes and Reps (and age)

[DaveLeeNC]

I am not sure if I have a question here or not, so I am going to start typing and see if one pops out. 

 

I am undergoing (with input from an instructor that I trust) kind of a swing overhaul. The issue is that I am not the same 5 handicap golfer at age 64 that I am now at age 74 (10 handicap). Normal age stuff and lots of arthritis (shoulder, knees, back, wrists) don't allow me to do either the good stuff or bad stuff (with compensations) that used to work (to an index of 5, anyway). 

 

So this is kind of a one step at a time journey. I have done a good bit of PT-type work that has at least improved my physical issues, but I still have serious limitations. Right now the biggest one is my left shoulder which will not tolerate the golf swing workload that used to be easy for me. 

 

At this point I can do (mostly plastic balls in the back yard, BTW) 60-90 swings before the shoulder starts rapidly going downhill. And equally important is that this lower level of work will allow enough recovery so that I can repeat it the next day (although consecutive days of 90 balls is probably out of the question). 

 

So I guess I do have some questions. 

 

1) This is not a lot of balls but can be (for the most part) daily. So how much faster could I make these changes if I could get this up by (for example) a factor of 2? There certainly is a principle of diminishing returns in play here, but I don't recall this EVER being quantified (or even guessed at). But surely it is addressed somewhere. And Tiger's recent statement of "1000 ball contacts per day when preparing for a tournament" certainly weighs on my mind. 

 

2) This is related to #1. How many reps does a meaningful swing change take (obviously this varies between golfers and depends on the degree of change). I am going a step at a time, FWIW. The first change was relatively easy as it involved doing something that I used to do and stopped (turn related). Next will be harder, I think. The is kind of a 'per step' question. 

 

3) Opinions on the limitations of whiffle balls off mats for most of my work? I am hitting off very high quality mats at home so the impact associated with my current 7i swing (light divot) is not a shoulder issue. But mats certainly can mask some things as do plastic balls (mostly clubface contact point masking). Just wondered what folks thought about that and what experience others might have had. I have read of folks who experience a different swing with whiffle balls vs real balls, but that does not seem to be the case for me.  But maybe I am fooling myself here. 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

 

ps. First test of my commitment is today. The time I have available to do drills is this morning and it is currently 34 degrees out there 😄

[rwc356]

71 years old (somedays it feels like 50 years and some days 90 years) with a fair amount of similar health issues which have kept my HCP in a 9-11 range. Over the pst few years, I've looked at several swing change options but have found my body just couldn't handle the range balls and practice required to change a swing I've used for 60+ years.

 

Interesting idea about using alternative balls - will be very interested in how that works for you. Once I realized my body couldn't handle the work necessary to make the swing changes - I started focusing on eliminating unforced errors, improving my short game, and improving my putting.  My body could handle the short game practice and I find myself relying on the improvements to help offset the erosion of distance.

 

Good luck with swing change!

[Zitlow]

If you're moving inefficiently wasting motion with a lot of unnecessary moving parts all the reps in the world won't really help. The downswing becomes a series of compensations to undo the backswing manipulations. 

 

The good news for you is the left arm and shoulder are basically going along for the ride when the right hand and arm drive the swing. 

 

 

Also a weak left hand grip causes a lot of rolling of the forearms going back and unrolling of the forearms to square the face back up at impact.

 

So think about getting your left hand turned more to the right if it isn't already which minimizes the shaft twisting. The back of the left hand about 45*. 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Zitlow

[KD1]

Quality over quantity. I wouldn't measure in how many balls you can hit. Intentional, focused practice in ~20 minute sessions is what you want. Forget about your 90 ball limit for your body for a moment, you're exercising your brain. Your brain needs rest and recovery between sessions to rewire those motor patterns, that only happens during sleep. Past 20ish minutes then your brain is worn out and you're wasting your time.... This is according to actual scientific studies, I'm not pulling it out of my butt. But I'm just some guy on the Internet and not a scientist, when I get an opportunity later I'll try to dig up some sources. I believe the Huberman Lab Podcast has a relevant episode on developing motor patterns.

 

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

The good news for you is the left arm and shoulder are basically going along for the ride when the right hand and arm drive the swing. 

 

 

[596]

I'm 68. 2 titanium hips and a back that the neurosurgeon crinches at.  Plenty of arthritis on top of that.

 

1 year ago I started to change my swing. Big changes for me.  I was advised to use 1/2 swings and slow swings to groove the new movement.  I can hit about 60 to 80 balls before I get tired and lose focus. I then move to the chipping/pitching green. I still use the same changes here but on a much smaller scale. I can hit 200 balls or so at this chipping/pitching green.

 

I do this once or twice a week and play 3 days a week.  It's been a year now and my game has improved a bunch. Started as a 9.7 cap and it's down to 8.6 but I've had a few rounds and 9 holes under par.  It's not how many balls you can hit, is how you hit those balls that counts.  1/2 swings is where it's at!! 

[bm11]

I'm learning how to better practice all the time. I'm not 71, I'm 40, but until I get to the point where my swing doesn't cause tendonitis issues, I can't hit more balls that you, and have to believe that what you can hit is enough to effect a change if you practice effectively.

 

I watched an interesting video today suggesting that a high quality way to practice is to do a "sandwich drill." Do one movement without a ball with the movement you are trying to implement. Do one movement with your old movement that you are trying to change to feel the difference. Do another movement with your new movement. Hit a ball with your new movement at 20% speed. If your swing into the ball successfully implements your new movement, do another set, but this time at 40%. If you aren't successful with your swing at the ball implementing your new movement, go back a movement. I plan on trying this approach tonight, as I've found that while I put the time in, I'm not effecting change as quickly as I'd like, and as such I'd like to maximize practice efficiency to maximize progress over time.  Video here referencing the learning pattern and the science behind it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNvLeWcEEGY?si=fNwObEOYRTNeE9Lc

[DaveLeeNC]

Thanks to all for a bunch of useful comments. A random handful of responses from me ...

 

Given my situation making sure that 'every swing counts' (re: quality of practice) surely should be paramount in my case (and maybe in all cases). 

 

I have noticed how in learning many different things (both physical and mental/academic stuff) "sleeping on it" improves the learning process. In particular I work hard on playing classical guitar (not an easy instrument even if you started young and are still relatively young). Many times I have spent a good bit of effort/time on a specific short passage and when I ended that thought "I wonder how much I learned here - have to wait until tomorrow's practice to find out". 

 

I have never been a TGM devotee but have read the book (with a mixed level of comprehension). I have (had anyway) what TGM calls a "swinging pattern" and that free follow-through is a real left shoulder buster for me. You see lots of major league hitters letting go with their trail hand and swinging the lead arm straight out/up. I simply cannot do anything close to that. But I can get through the ball freely so should be able to overcome this issue, I think. 

 

My golf background is lots of play until I started college (late 1960's). Then I pretty much stopped playing until around 2003 when I started again. I have always had a longish/smooth kind of flowing golf swing. I cannot do that any more. I can't do the long part and I can't do the flowing part. There are worse issues for some folks at age 74. 

 

Regarding plastic balls if you get into this you will encounter (most commonly) 3 types of plastic balls. 

 

1) Plastic balls that have holes and are relatively soft 

2) Plastic balls that have holes and are pretty hard 

3) Solid plastic balls 

 

#3 is by far the most realistic but you can hit them 45+ yards so you may have a space problem here. #1 are the shortest flying of the balls. If you are using irons you can get away with as little as 25'ish yards (with mid/short irons anyway). #2 are kind of in between #1 and #3. #1 and #2 will both show big hook/slice outcomes and #3 will actually reveal more subtle fades and draws (assuming limited wind). I really don't have room for #3 so tend to stay with #2. Type #2 is meaningfully more realistic feeling than #1 (and a good bit less realistic feeling than #3). 

 

Thanks again for the input. 

 

dave

 

ps. There are practice balls called 'Birdie Balls' and they are actually little bitty hollow cylinders roughly the size of a golf ball. I have hit ONE of these just ONE TIME. I was surprised at how realistic that seemed to be to me. I was also surprised to see the ball end up in the middle of my neighbor's backyard. 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[ShortGolfer]

I like to practice with the Callaway's foam practice balls.  A bucket of 42 balls from Target.  

Right now I'm swinging well so I put away the foam practice balls and have been hitting old golf balls in my back yard with a 60* wedge.  As well as practicing on a chipping green a few times a week.

I do a lot of walking on the chipping green.  Playing three balls and holing chips with the putter after hitting lob shots back and forth when there is nobody else there.  Get there early when the weather is cold and no one else is around.

 

I like to do a lot of short practice sessions throughout the day.  I can do this now that I'm retired.  I'll do gardening and other chores in the summer between practice sessions.

Edited November 29, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[Pepperturbo]

On 11/29/2023 at 7:22 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

I am not sure if I have a question here or not, so I am going to start typing and see if one pops out. 

 

I am undergoing (with input from an instructor that I trust) kind of a swing overhaul. The issue is that I am not the same 5 handicap golfer at age 64 that I am now at age 74 (10 handicap). Normal age stuff and lots of arthritis (shoulder, knees, back, wrists) don't allow me to do either the good stuff or bad stuff (with compensations) that used to work (to an index of 5, anyway). 

 

So this is kind of a one step at a time journey. I have done a good bit of PT-type work that has at least improved my physical issues, but I still have serious limitations. Right now the biggest one is my left shoulder which will not tolerate the golf swing workload that used to be easy for me. 

 

At this point I can do (mostly plastic balls in the back yard, BTW) 60-90 swings before the shoulder starts rapidly going downhill. And equally important is that this lower level of work will allow enough recovery so that I can repeat it the next day (although consecutive days of 90 balls is probably out of the question). 

 

So I guess I do have some questions. 

 

1) This is not a lot of balls but can be (for the most part) daily. So how much faster could I make these changes if I could get this up by (for example) a factor of 2? There certainly is a principle of diminishing returns in play here, but I don't recall this EVER being quantified (or even guessed at). But surely it is addressed somewhere. And Tiger's recent statement of "1000 ball contacts per day when preparing for a tournament" certainly weighs on my mind. 

 

2) This is related to #1. How many reps does a meaningful swing change take (obviously this varies between golfers and depends on the degree of change). I am going a step at a time, FWIW. The first change was relatively easy as it involved doing something that I used to do and stopped (turn related). Next will be harder, I think. The is kind of a 'per step' question. 

 

3) Opinions on the limitations of whiffle balls off mats for most of my work? I am hitting off very high quality mats at home so the impact associated with my current 7i swing (light divot) is not a shoulder issue. But mats certainly can mask some things as do plastic balls (mostly clubface contact point masking). Just wondered what folks thought about that and what experience others might have had. I have read of folks who experience a different swing with whiffle balls vs real balls, but that does not seem to be the case for me.  But maybe I am fooling myself here. 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

 

ps. First test of my commitment is today. The time I have available to do drills is this morning and it is currently 34 degrees out there 😄

I am near your age, and thankfully still holding at 3-5 index.  How long don't know.  I don't think there is an exact rep answer for amateurs.  All depends on time availability and how hard you're willing to push yourself, and of course, outside temp... 😛  Thanks to a high pain tolerance, (no drugs) I have been coping with troubling osteoarthritis in my knees, hips and wrists for about ten years... 

 

Anyway, when I took up golf, I began practicing in the house with a mat and whiffle balls.  Didn't like how they felt off the face nor their behavior after struck.  They did, however, work for full swing practice, though.  But I can see why some people think they led to a different swing.  Gota be willing to whack them like you would real balls, for swing practice.    Later, I threw them away and started using real balls around the house.

 

Eventually, I set up a mat in my office and a chip/pitching net down the hall, today it's 40+yards and been using that nearly every day since.  Have a larger mat for full swing.  Though Tiger's 1000 strikes sounds daunting, I wouldn't let that magnitude weigh on you as your expectations are not nearly the same as Tigers.   Good luck with your challenge.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[Zitlow]

This is a drill that might help you develop the feel of using your body to square the clubface instead rolling your arms to square it. 

 

 

You'll get shaft lean and you'll feel what it's like not to twist the clubhead around the shaft through impact. In other words a very stable face through the ball.