Persimmon woods, how bad is too bad for restoration?

[aswile]

5 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

 

The price depends on the amount of work that is needed to be done.  I have had some woods that just required resetting the insert and shaft, light to no rework of the stamps, fine sanding/steel wood, stain and poly.  There are some people that will restore woods for between $125-$175.  The work will be pretty good but it may not be stellar.  The problem with the lower end people is that they may not reset the insert or replace screws with the proper types.  In the past I have tried some club restoration people that priced very affordable (low costs).  The couple of woods that were done did not have the shaft reset or insert reset and the finish was amateurish.  This prompted me to find more skilled restoration people.  The more skill, the more cost.

 

The next question someone has to ask themselves is what the purpose of the restoration is.  If it is just to merely play the wood then a lower cost restoration person will be good.  Maybe some components won't be replaced (screws), re-etching of stamps might not be perfect and stain/poly will be good (not great) but insert and shaft should be reset.  That's a great choice for a gamer.  However, if a person is looking to restore a classic model for a collection, which is what I do, then the cost will increase because there are limited people who can execute this kind of restoration.  The woods in my collection are collectibles and some of the prized models from the 1950s.  This type of collection isn't for everyone but this is where the complete restoration comes in.  This is the most expensive there is because the cost depends on how much work is being done.

 

@The Aspidistra in the Hall, here is an example of a horrible driver in need of major (and I mean MAJOR) restoration.  This is my 1953 MacGregor LFF driver as I received it.  On the surface it looked like a decent driver in need of some minor restoration work. 

 

For your benefit, since I kind of hijacked your thread, I will put the cost of the initial purchase and restoration work needed and the cost of that here.  This is something I NEVER do because frankly it's none of anyone's business.  So this is an Olive Branch to you, so to speak.

 

I purchased this driver from a friend in Ohio back around 2015/2016 (IIRC).  I paid $200 for it which was a bargain.  I am certain I received a friend's discount but these were going for between $250-$350 at the time.

 

 

 

 

I sent it to my club restoration person.  He started some work on it then sends back these pictures.

 

 

 

 

As you can see under the sole plate there was a gigantic mess.  Some hack years ago all but destroyed this driver.  At first my guy wanted to just till the holes with epoxy which I said absolutely not.  He then decided the work needed was outside his comfort level and sent be back the driver.  No worries, all is good with us.  I then contacted Dave Wood to have him complete the restoration.  I sent Dave the driver and we had some interesting conversations regarding it.  Needless to say he was floored by the level of incompetence here.  Dave said the restoration would be costly on this and I said this driver is rare, especially one that is in this condition outside what was done to the sole.  Dave started working on this LFF.

 

Here are two pics Dave sent to me of the sole repair.  The first are the holes prepped for repair with shaft and insert reset.  The second is the repair of the holes.

 

 

 

 

 

Dave repaired the holes using Hickory dowels so that the overall feel would be as solid as a solid block of Persimmon.  From the appearance he believes this was once a solid block since the lead port would have been directly under the sole stamps in the center of the sole and the wood there is untouched.  It is a shame some hack did this to this driver but thank goodness Dave was available.  Dave replaced the shaft with a NOS era appropriate shaft as well.  The insert is still the original. 

 

Here are a few different pictures of completed restoration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The cost .....

 

Before we get into that what would someone be willing to pay to have this driver restored to collectible condition?  Again, when deciding the purpose and function of a restoration the question a person must ask is what are they willing to spend?  If it were a no-name retail store persimmon, a MacGregor Golden Bear persimmon (sorry Jack), or a decent mid-line persimmon with no collectible value the realistic answer is either no restoration or very little.  For something like these I would consider trying it myself.  I have done some cosmetic refinishes and the clubs came out ok.  However, to do a full restoration this will cost a bit more.  There are some people willing to restore woods as stated before $125-$175 but at this price point the holes would have been filled with epoxy (which would affect overall swing weight), the shaft would not have been replaced and screws most likely not replaced.  While it might have been pretty the functionality would not be there.  Two more pictures.

 

 

 

This was taken back in 2018 or 2019 (I don't remember).  Par 5 6th hole at Collindale Golf Course in Fort Collins, CO (5,000 ft elevation).  I was gaming a Taylormade M3 440cc tour issue driver with a Graphite Design Tour AD DI 6S shaft (45") and gaming a 2016 Taylormade Tour Preferred 5 ball.  I hit the M3 and TM ball around 300 yards (back to the elevation thing) almost through the right to left bend.  It is the ball further up the fairway.  The ball closest to me in the picture was hit with the LFF and it is a Titleist Tour Balata ball (NOS as I have several dozen of them).  I hit this drive around 275 yards in the middle of the fairway.  The trajectory for the LFF was a bit lower and the ball had some roll to it.  The purpose of these pictures is to convey my intentions for the LFF and the path I took in the restoration.  I intend to game the drivers in my collection, at least hit them off tees and I want them to perform as they were intended.  Had I chose a lesser restoration for the LFF, ie. epoxy filled holes, the driver wouldn't be able to hit a ball decently and would feel like crap.  This is why I had Dave restore the driver as it should.  He spent a lot of hours on the driver so based on hourly wage his price was inexpensive.  Based on overall cost it was not.  That said, I paid $550 to have this driver restored so my cost in this driver is $750.  Also keep in mind this is 2017 prices so the cost would be more today.  Some people might think I am crazy putting this kind of money in a driver and maybe I am.  If I were to sell it I could easily recover the cost as this driver would sell north of $1,000 but it isn't for sale.  None of mine are.  I am a collector because I love the nostalgia of persimmon and once gamed them back in the day.

 

Not all my restorations from Dave cost nearly this much but this was the worst case scenario in my collection.  That said Dave charges more than most because his skills are unmatched and he has pedigree with his work in restoration (Ben Crenshaw, Greg Norman, Seve, Ballesteros and a whole slew of others), once crafted great persimmon woods (Wood Brothers Golf, Bob Tway, David Duval, etc.), and has worked on thousands of woods.  He is a true artisan.

 

There are a few people out there that offer terrific work and lower costs.  One in particular I am interested in working with is Nim Brann.  I don't know what he charges but I hear he is very reasonable and his work appears to be really good.

 

@The Aspidistra in the Hall I hope this long winded answer helps you in gauging restoration costs.  This example is on the high end.  I have had some of my collection restored for as little as $125 and this one is the upper end.  Mine generally come in between these values.  Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Worth every penny!

 

[bcstones]

1 hour ago, RobotDoctor said:

get that.  The reason I posted the 945W pics is because most of the people I know thought it was absolutely crazy I would consider that one for a full restoration.  The condition was horrible, pictures don't do the amount of injustice it deserved.  The after pics was not meant to show how great the restoration went, per se, but to illustrate that even a horrible wood can come out like new condition.  Not every wood is a candidate for this and to my defense the original pictures were already removed when I made my initial post so I had no reference to a specific club.  I had a request for information with no basis of a club so I commented the way I did.  My post wasn't meant to showboat (they never are) but to show a bad club restored well.

Thank you....your posting didn't offend me, nor did I think you were "showboating". I just got a wee bit frustrated when the topic split from the original question (& it was after your 945W pics).
I am a bit of a curmudgeon. Also probably cuz I'm an old coot, sometimes I wish a wee bit literal meaning in posting so I don't misunderstand the posters intent...I apologize if I offended you.

Most assuredly if I came across a LFF, a Hogan deep face, a H&B PowerBilt deep face, or a MacGregor Hogan Bap wood, in any condition, I grap them & then save the $$ to have restored by a pro. 
The diy I mentioned, came from my bins of woods...I'd hoped, & still do hope, to clear the space for a work-space to try to restore some...while most of what I've garnered is not collectable - hopefully they could be played. So the lesser quality are there so I can mess up in order to learn from my mistakes (which I'm guessing will be plenty)

 

Again, thanks for your posting....I do enjoy looking at those beautiful restorations of yours. 

[Bella Woods]

Hi Chris:

 

I think what you could do with that club is:

 

1) Take off the face screws.

2) "Gently" file the face with a decently wide (like an inch or so) fine file. I say wide because it would lessen your chances

     of pulling/chipping off wood from the face. Your choice on how much to file. The clubs face progression looks pretty

     good so you could eliminate a lot of the problems (crud/loose wood etc) on the face by taking off some wood

     with the file, and not really change the clubs "optics" at address. Or you could just clean it up real good. 

3) Sand the face next (something like 220 grit) and recut the scoring lines.

4) Reinstall the face screws (may need to fit them to the "new" face to make them flush now).

5) "Paint" the face (only) with one of the modern hard drying liquid glues (the one that Randy Jensen mentions

     in his book works good - Wonderlok "Em). This stuff holds the wood together pretty good and dries clear.

6) Spray the face with a few light coats of poly (or the whole clubhead if you want to).

7) Ready to go.....

 

I have been painting the faces of all my hickory woods with liquid glue before finish coats. You can't even

tell after the finish coats, and they are very solid.

 

I have cleaned up more than a few clubs in this fashion in years past, most recent was a MacGregor 693.

It is not that complicated or time consuming really. It won't look like a museum club, but it will be functional

which is what you are after, I think.......

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

6 hours ago, Bella Woods said:

Hi Chris:

 

I think what you could do with that club is:

 

1) Take off the face screws.

2) "Gently" file the face with a decently wide (like an inch or so) fine file. I say wide because it would lessen your chances

     of pulling/chipping off wood from the face. Your choice on how much to file. The clubs face progression looks pretty

     good so you could eliminate a lot of the problems (crud/loose wood etc) on the face by taking off some wood

     with the file, and not really change the clubs "optics" at address. Or you could just clean it up real good. 

3) Sand the face next (something like 220 grit) and recut the scoring lines.

4) Reinstall the face screws (may need to fit them to the "new" face to make them flush now).

5) "Paint" the face (only) with one of the modern hard drying liquid glues (the one that Randy Jensen mentions

     in his book works good - Wonderlok "Em). This stuff holds the wood together pretty good and dries clear.

6) Spray the face with a few light coats of poly (or the whole clubhead if you want to).

7) Ready to go.....

 

I have been painting the faces of all my hickory woods with liquid glue before finish coats. You can't even

tell after the finish coats, and they are very solid.

 

I have cleaned up more than a few clubs in this fashion in years past, most recent was a MacGregor 693.

It is not that complicated or time consuming really. It won't look like a museum club, but it will be functional

which is what you are after, I think.......

Bella, how nice to hear from you.

This exactly the sort of content I was looking for, and I believe, a number of others visiting this forum will feel similarly.

Note to self...must get a copy of Randy's book.

Happy Xmas and New Year,

Chris

[Bella Woods]

Happy Xmas and New Year to you too Chris

[bcstones]

16 hours ago, Bella Woods said:

t is not that complicated or time consuming really. It won't look like a museum club, but it will be functional

which is what you are after, I think.......

Thank you...have copied your method to my notes. 

 

 

9 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

must get a copy of Randy's book

me also....I have the Bob Kuntz book on restoration & preservation...the Jensen book would be great to acquire - might someone know the title? Ok, just checked now - the only book I could find, was "Playing Hickory Golf" at a cool $100. Is that the book referenced or is there another about restoration?

Edited December 16, 2023 by bcstones

[Bella Woods]

bcstones

 

That is the book referenced.

[bcstones]

2 hours ago, Bella Woods said:

That is the book referenced.

Amazon seems to have one....for a mere $1,250 🙃 🤣

[bcstones]

53 minutes ago, bcstones said:

Amazon seems to have one....for a mere $1,250 🙃 🤣

Also found it, in a world-wide search, at Abe Books - same price, turns out it's an oversized special edition, numbered 250/300

[Bella Woods]

Used to be able to order and download an online version, also McIntyre Golf Ball Co in Omaha, Nebraska used to sell

the book as well. McIntyre Golf owner David Brown and Randy Jensen from the same hometown. It has always been an

expensive book ($100 or so).

 

I don't know if David is still selling them - I believe it was a relatively limited run of books.

 

Randy used to own Classic Golf in Omaha before he sold out in 2012. The book is not all about restoration

of clubs (2 to 3 chapters are repair/restoration related) - it's mostly about hickory golf in general. 

[Hickory4ever]

I highly recommend Randy Jensen’s book. It is a good read especially if you are into the hickory era. 

[Hickory4ever]

15 hours ago, bcstones said:

Also found it, in a world-wide search, at Abe Books - same price, turns out it's an oversized special edition, numbered 250/300

My copy of the book is 38/300 and I bought it for $75 Canadian three years ago from one of our collectors. I never buy off eBay as prices are inflated in my opinion. I think $75-100 is reasonable.

As to the original post of where do you draw the line on when to refinish or not, it is a personal choice. In my neck of the woods, the number of hardcore collectors is decreasing and the prices are declining. Most of the old hardcore collectors want clubs to remain original and don’t look favourably on any refinishing. My personal philosophy is that clubs were meant to be played, not displayed. I don’t mind spending a couple dollars to spruce up a club with good play potential, especially hickory era clubs. Classic era clubs are another matter with poor demand and so I am more reluctant to spend money on them. 
 

 

 

[bcstones]

12 minutes ago, Hickory4ever said:

My copy of the book is 38/300 and I bought it for $75 Canadian three years ago from one of our collectors. I never buy off eBay as prices are inflated in my opinion. I think $75-100 is reasonable.

As to the original post of where do you draw the line on when to refinish or not, it is a personal choice. In my neck of the woods, the number of hardcore collectors is decreasing and the prices are declining. Most of the old hardcore collectors want clubs to remain original and don’t look favourably on any refinishing. My personal philosophy is that clubs were meant to be played, not displayed. I don’t mind spending a couple dollars to spruce up a club with good play potential, especially hickory era clubs. Classic era clubs are another matter with poor demand and so I am more reluctant to spend money on them. 
 

 

 

Totally agree - "...clubs were meant to be played..." Tho, I will gratefully sell to any collector (have far too many clubs/sets that need to find good home). 
I think the "Classic era" are often looked down upon... @Jiggered has an excellent video about the overlooked clubs from the time of transition from hickory to steel. I don't mind spending a wee bit of money on them, it's the time factor involved that matters more to me.

That's a great buy - I found I could buy for $100 reprints from various hickory sources.
 

[Coletrain]

On 12/15/2023 at 12:48 PM, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Thanks, RobotDoc. The essence is that the clubs you have had restored were highend desireable, even as dog-poo, and I applaud the steps taken to turn them into museum pieces. But it wasn't where I was pitching and that is the nub of where wires have got crossed. 

 

I remember a post a couple of years ago when the OP wanted to develop a definitive list of McGregor remakes, so we all knew what was what and how we could tell the difference.

 

Within about 3 posts the thread had deteriorated into a catalogue of originals and why they were 'better', which kind of missed the point. I think we got as far as 693s and EoMs and the OP forlornly asking for photos of 945 remakes.

So the current issue isn't a new phenomenon and It doesn't offend but it does generate a reaction.

 

Where can i find this thread? 

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

4 hours ago, Coletrain said:

Where can i find this thread? 

'MacGregor Re-Issues'

by Foozle

Feb 25 2021

Hickory, Persimmon and Classic Clubs

 

Happy New Year !

[LeftyMac]

Clement's "Classic Golf Clubs" has a good section on how far gone clubs can be.

 

 

[SnowbirdTom]

Just got word from the refinisher that my three Honma Extra 90s will need some face rebuilding and a neck crack epoxied.  I'll gladly let him handle it and then do the refinishing.  Grips and shafts were good. Three woods should be about $225/250 to be back to fully playable in my hands in a few weeks.

 

Some things are better left to much more experienced hands than mine. 😉

[LeftyMac]

If anyone is looking for a good book on club repair then grab a copy of Carl Paul's Golf Club Making and Repair.  540 pages of great content with lots and lots of photos and copies still to be found.  Three copies on Ebay, two for the princely sum of $6.46 or you can lash out and spend $17.99

 

 

[Brewski_golfs]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:12 PM, LeftyMac said:

If anyone is looking for a good book on club repair then grab a copy of Carl Paul's Golf Club Making and Repair.  540 pages of great content with lots and lots of photos and copies still to be found.  Three copies on Ebay, two for the princely sum of $6.46 or you can lash out and spend $17.99

 

 

I have a copy of Maltby's Golf Club Design, Fitting, Alteration, and Repair, 4th edition.  Any idea how it compares to the Carl Paul book? 

[LeftyMac]

8 hours ago, Brewski_golfs said:

I have a copy of Maltby's Golf Club Design, Fitting, Alteration, and Repair, 4th edition.  Any idea how it compares to the Carl Paul book? 

Brewski,

 

They are similar, both have plenty of material and lots of photos.  I have the Maltby book as well, and tend to look at both if I'm doing something.  Different photos and text can fill in the detail on the same process.

[pacman16]

Is a crack in the block ... extending into the face a write-off?

[SnowbirdTom]

9 minutes ago, pacman16 said:

Is a crack in the block ... extending into the face a write-off?

 

Depending on value or sentimental worth of the club, no.  Good club repair experts can epoxy it back together and make it usable again.

[LeftyMac]

On 1/19/2024 at 1:50 AM, pacman16 said:

Is a crack in the block ... extending into the face a write-off?

Yep can be fixed but don’t watch .  You snap the head in two on the crack and glue the two parts together.  Modern epoxy far stronger than the original wood so it will play well afterwards.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

6 hours ago, LeftyMac said:

"Yep can be fixed but don’t watch"

That's funny. But you're right, it's not for the squeamish.

 

 

[Mr. Clean]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:39 AM, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

That's funny. But you're right, it's not for the squeamish.

 

 

 

On 1/22/2024 at 2:16 AM, LeftyMac said:

Yep can be fixed but don’t watch .  You snap the head in two on the crack and glue the two parts together.  Modern epoxy far stronger than the original wood so it will play well afterwards.

 

 

I will be watching as I will be the one cracking and glueing 😉 I have thick skin when it comes to wood.....Medical needles, that is whole nother topic and discussion for a different forum!!