Persimmon woods, how bad is too bad for restoration?

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

Here is a humble Wilson persimmon from around 1986. It's clearly been abused. The face lacquer has worn away and the owner continued playing. The issue is likely ingrained dirt plus a few scuff marks. It's likely this could be a good player, and I emphasise that this post is for the people who just love playing persimmon,largely to the exclusion of other forms of golf.  Most folk in this category would take pride in doing the work themselves and show their work at playing meets.Not everyone sees persimmon as the sole preserve of the high end collector.

 

As a starter for ten I would suggest that a face graft is OTT, too expensive and time consuming. The least you would get away with is a clean-up of the face....wash with soap and water, dry very light sand....or has anyone experience of successful bleaching. Some would say remove the insert, but then again epoxy would have been used in 1986 not the animal/fish glues of the 1950s, so maybe not.

 

Opinions would be welcome esp. if based on personal practical experience.

Edited December 15, 2023 by The Aspidistra in the Hall

[LeftyMac]

Depends how much you want the block.  Insert is easy to replace, the face damage needs more work but is very doable.  If the damage isn't too deep you can take a little off the face, if the damage is more extensive and deeper then you'd cut the damage out and graft a new bit of persimmon on.

 

My LFF started off way worse.

Edited December 8, 2023 by LeftyMac

[RobotDoctor]

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Edited December 15, 2023 by RobotDoctor

[Thayneil]

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Edited December 16, 2023 by Thayneil
going off topic

[RobotDoctor]

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Edited December 15, 2023 by RobotDoctor

[bcstones]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:54 AM, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Posted in error, misjudged the knowledge base of the community.

not exactly sure what you mean...I'd love to know just how bad a persimmon head would have to be to burn it in a fireplace. 

[RobotDoctor]

20 minutes ago, bcstones said:

not exactly sure what you mean...I'd love to know just how bad a persimmon head would have to be to burn it in a fireplace. 

I am wondering what the OP means with misjudged the knowledge base of the community."  While most on GolfWRX have no clue pertaining with persimmon woods, those who post on this board have a really good and deep knowledge base.  Hopefully the OP will clarify this post edit.

[Foozle]

22 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Foozle
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[RobotDoctor]

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Edited December 15, 2023 by RobotDoctor

[bcstones]

gonna be a curmudgeon here....I do enjoy seeing these pics of restored persimmons - however, they don't answer the OP's original question "Persimmon woods, how bad is too bad for restoration?". A question I'd love to hear/see answered, if possible

[RobotDoctor]

We tried to give examples and create a dialog but the OP checked out.  Bummer.

[RobotDoctor]

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Edited December 15, 2023 by RobotDoctor

[Foozle]

18 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

@Foozle, 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Foozle
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[RobotDoctor]

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Edited December 15, 2023 by RobotDoctor

[SnowbirdTom]

I guess the answer , @The Aspidistra in the Hall is how much do you value your club and the budget.  Anything can be fixed, but is it worth it?  I’ve tossed a few that were cost prohibitive to restore.  Value vs repair $$ wasn’t there!  Some of these guys dump a few hundred or more on some of these reclamations.  I can’t do that budget personally.  
 

That one you originally pictured wasn’t a major project, IMO.

[SnowbirdTom]

3 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

We tried to give examples and create a dialog but the OP checked out.  Bummer.

No, you posted pictures of your high buck babies after the work was done.  No reference to cost or pictures of the club before work started.  That’s not helping.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

12 hours ago, bcstones said:

gonna be a curmudgeon here....I do enjoy seeing these pics of restored persimmons - however, they don't answer the OP's original question "Persimmon woods, how bad is too bad for restoration?". A question I'd love to hear/see answered, if possible

Ah, someone's got it, thank you.

The criteria for economic repair for 'lesser' persimmon intended primarily for play than a 'collectors museum piece are quite different, and I showed an example of a prosaic Wilson with text as back-up.

 

. I hoped for a discussion rather than a view of the most beautiful and exclusive, which when 'I checked out' was the only response.

 

I know I've said this before but many find the high concentration of the esoteric on here a bit off-putting, and it is undeniably true that the huge and varied resource that these pages once were is severely diminished.

 

[Thayneil]

On 12/15/2023 at 1:14 AM, RobotDoctor said:

 

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Edited December 16, 2023 by Thayneil
off topic

[RobotDoctor]

11 hours ago, SnowbirdTom said:

No, you posted pictures of your high buck babies after the work was done.  No reference to cost or pictures of the club before work started.  That’s not helping.

The first picture was of the face of the 945W in poor condition restored to as new condition.  The other pictures were meant to show how restored woods can look when done by a capable and talented club restoration person.  Pictures speak a 1000 words.  Besides, the cost I put in to have my collection restored isn't going to be discussed on an active board because that is between me and my club restoration person.  If anyone has questions regarding the cost they can simply send a PM.  Even with that I will give a general range because there isn't a set price depending on what is needed to restore woods.  Not all woods are worth restoring, especially when the work will be somewhere in the lower 3 Benjamins.  Would I restore a unknown brand persimmon wood in poor condition.  Absolutely not.  Would I restore a highly sought collectible, absolutely.  The reality is that the cost of restoring a persimmon wood isn't for everyone and that those who want to hit a persimmon to satisfy their curiosity should simply buy a cheap, decent conditioned persimmon on eBay.  A well restored persimmon is a road most people are not willing to go down.

[SnowbirdTom]

Like I said, less than helpful.  He was looking to find out if his playing club was worth fixing and how much it might cost. Some of us actually use our clubs on the course. 😛

 

Soooo, here's some help for him.  Just got the call yesterday from the Club Hospital in MN about my 1950 Spalding RTJ 1/2/3 players.  Had three clubs put back to playing condition.  Heads were refinished, the 3W had it's insert and sole plate reset - $200 including rewhipping after the heads were completely stripped, work done and restained in black.  Shipping was on me both ways, another $40.  I'll post before and after when I get the clubs back middle of next week.

 

The before pics.

 

 

 

My old 2&3 wood Hagens were redone by Dave Bass in NC.  If you talk to him, he'll send you a price list to give an idea what it'll cost.  I dropped $360 on them with new shafts and grips, total rework of heads including reseating sole plates and redoing all the stampings.  They're damn gorgeous and play real well.  It wasn't cost effective, but it was a labor of love for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RobotDoctor]

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Edited December 22, 2023 by RobotDoctor
Removing content

[RobotDoctor]

@SnowbirdTom, see my latest post.  Maybe this will sufficient to you.  IIRC the OP didn't post a picture of the club he intended to post so answers were going to be based on our own experiences.  Cheers.

[SnowbirdTom]

1 hour ago, RobotDoctor said:

@SnowbirdTom, see my latest post.  Maybe this will sufficient to you.  IIRC the OP didn't post a picture of the club he intended to post so answers were going to be based on our own experiences.  Cheers.

 

Thank you.  Sorry I got a bit off track on you, but pretty sure from first look your pictured Mac wasn't horrible.  Once torn apart, woof.  That's a hot mess.  It's good to have a working relationship with an excellent woodworker.  Mr. Bass was a blessing to find.  He did my Hagen woods up far better than I'd hoped for.  We'll see how Stan in MN did on a basic refinish about Wednesday of next week.  I didn't want perfection, goal was playable as they'll probably be my go to play set this summer.  It drives my pairing crazy when they get outhit with a 70 y/o club.  

 

There was an original picture from the OP, but quickly deleted.  It was rough, but recoverable to play.  Not a museum piece.  The lower face was pretty tore up and probably needed a face cut and graft to make playable again. 

[RobotDoctor]

I would also recommend John Hayes (persimmonpal) for restoration work.  His time is limited so patience is a must.  His work is really excellent and his prices are pretty good. John's a great guy.  

[RobotDoctor]

13 minutes ago, SnowbirdTom said:

 

Thank you.  Sorry I got a bit off track on you, but pretty sure from first look your pictured Mac wasn't horrible.  Once torn apart, woof.  That's a hot mess.  It's good to have a working relationship with an excellent woodworker.  Mr. Bass was a blessing to find.  He did my Hagen woods up far better than I'd hoped for.  We'll see how Stan in MN did on a basic refinish about Wednesday of next week.  I didn't want perfection, goal was playable as they'll probably be my go to play set this summer.  It drives my pairing crazy when they get outhit with a 70 y/o club.  

 

There was an original picture from the OP, but quickly deleted.  It was rough, but recoverable to play.  Not a museum piece.  The lower face was pretty tore up and probably needed a face cut and graft to make playable again. 

Several of the drivers in my collection were reclamation projects, much worse than the LFF on the outside but great under the sole plate.  A couple most would have passed restoring.  Fortunately these were diamonds in the rough.  One is a M43 and the other is a 693.  
 

At the end of the day form and function of the owner should dictate the path taken. I would never spend a lot to restore a lower end retail model unless there's huge sentimental value to the club.  

[bcstones]

6 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

The criteria for economic repair for 'lesser' persimmon intended primarily for play than a 'collectors museum piece are quite different, and I showed an example of a prosaic Wilson with text as back-up.

 

That was my thought when I read your opening question....it got off track w/the beautiful pics for high end woods. Nice as those pics are, they missed the point of your posting....& there are other threads that are about beautiful restorations.

 

 

4 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

The other pictures were meant to show how restored woods can look when done by a capable and talented club restoration person

I get it....however, the original question was to promote a discussion about where to draw the line on playable clubs, not about what restorer did a great restoration. I understand what you mean about cost etc. & that you wouldn't bother w/lowend/retail woods - but what about the rest of us, who might be condisdering diy - what's that line?

[RobotDoctor]

13 minutes ago, bcstones said:

That was my thought when I read your opening question....it got off track w/the beautiful pics for high end woods. Nice as those pics are, they missed the point of your posting....& there are other threads that are about beautiful restorations.

 

 

I get it....however, the original question was to promote a discussion about where to draw the line on playable clubs, not about what restorer did a great restoration. I understand what you mean about cost etc. & that you wouldn't bother w/lowend/retail woods - but what about the rest of us, who might be condisdering diy - what's that line?

I get that.  The reason I posted the 945W pics is because most of the people I know thought it was absolutely crazy I would consider that one for a full restoration.  The condition was horrible, pictures don't do the amount of injustice it deserved.  The after pics was not meant to show how great the restoration went, per se, but to illustrate that even a horrible wood can come out like new condition.  Not every wood is a candidate for this and to my defense the original pictures were already removed when I made my initial post so I had no reference to a specific club.  I had a request for information with no basis of a club so I commented the way I did.  My post wasn't meant to showboat (they never are) but to show a bad club restored well.

 

There was no mention of DIY so I didn't go there.  I have done some minor DIY stuff and have a tutorial in club restoration so if I needed to do one I have a great guide.  Not everyone wants to DIY and frankly some aren't suited for that.  I was just trying to help but it seems that some of my comments offended some.  I can't help that but I can refrain from posting what appears to be offensive posts to some.  My pictures have been removed to keep this thread on track.  I will leave up the last post that shows my LFF and the journey because it is relevant to a restoration journey.  The LFF was essentially dog poo and this is the cost of restoration.  People can choose to restore the right way or do it cheaply.  Either method will reap what is sown.  Thanks for the tip.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by RobotDoctor

[freddiec]

Great pics RobotDoctor. Its amazing what some talented restores can do to a club and yours are good examples.  I remember Dave Wood did wonders with the face on your 945 EOM. Good stuff !!

[freddiec]

in the Hall,

in regards to your Wilson and experienced guy will probably have to fully restore that face.  He may have to file away some of that Rot, which will reduce the face progression a little in a lot of cases.  I've had club faces restored because of damage, but not. as bad as  your Wilson.  

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

11 minutes ago, RobotDoctor said:

I get that.  The reason I posted the 945W pics is because most of the people I know thought it was absolutely crazy I would consider that one for a full restoration.  The condition was horrible, pictures don't do the amount of injustice it deserved.  The after pics was not meant to show how great the restoration went, per se, but to illustrate that even a horrible wood can come out like new condition.  Not every wood is a candidate for this and to my defense the original pictures were already removed when I made my initial post so I had no reference to a specific club.  I had a request for information with no basis of a club so I commented the way I did.  My post wasn't meant to showboat (they never are) but to show a bad club restored well.

 

There was no mention of DIY so I didn't go there.  I have done some minor DIY stuff and have a tutorial in club restoration so if I needed to do one I have a great guide.  Not everyone wants to DIY and frankly some aren't suited for that.  I was just trying to help but it seems that some of my comments offended some.  I can't help that but I can refrain from posting what appears to be offensive posts to some.  My pictures have been removed to keep this thread on track.  I will leave up the last post that shows my LFF and the journey because it is relevant to a restoration journey.  The LFF was essentially dog poo and this is the cost of restoration.  People can choose to restore the right way or do it cheaply.  Either method will reap what is sown.  Thanks for the tip.

 

Thanks, RobotDoc. The essence is that the clubs you have had restored were highend desireable, even as dog-poo, and I applaud the steps taken to turn them into museum pieces. But it wasn't where I was pitching and that is the nub of where wires have got crossed. 

 

I remember a post a couple of years ago when the OP wanted to develop a definitive list of McGregor remakes, so we all knew what was what and how we could tell the difference.

 

Within about 3 posts the thread had deteriorated into a catalogue of originals and why they were 'better', which kind of missed the point. I think we got as far as 693s and EoMs and the OP forlornly asking for photos of 945 remakes.

So the current issue isn't a new phenomenon and It doesn't offend but it does generate a reaction.