Open Face and Delivery

[shortpockets]

This will be like a penny bowl at the cash register counter- need a penny, take a penny, have a penny, leave a penny. 

 

Seems like an open face starting delivery, or last parallel, gets no respect any longer so will start compiling captures showing a few outliers doing just that- doing an easy job well.  

 

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

Under 100 mph driver speed players, which is the vast majority should be pretty much toe up at delivery in a stock iron swing 

 

Higher club head speed players can often benefit from a stronger face delivery particularly with irons. I know I do.

[KD1]

Can you elaborate on why that's the case?

[MPStrat]

24 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Can you elaborate on why that's the case?

With higher club head speed players it comes down to pattern and personal preference. I could make strong arguments for both. Rory would be the toe up example, guys with the lower rate of closure or more of the “passive face” release often have a stronger face delivery especially as the club gets shorter due to the spine angle being less upright. 
 

Players under 100 mph swing speed are leaving speed and carry distance on the table  with a stronger face delivery. Also all of the issues that can come from not hitting it high enough 

 

Old school players tended to be more toe up at delivery because of the equipment they were playing. They were building their swings to be able to hit a sky high 1 iron. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by MPStrat

[bladehunter]

In my opinion toe up is the only way to fly.  I don’t personally understand how people play a shut face.  The left miss is just so unplayable.  While  a right miss is worlds more playable , even if it is weak.   

Edited December 30, 2023 by bladehunter

[KD1]

If your aiming for toe up at p6 what shot shape are you likely playing? I'm guessing trying to play a draw from there would be dangerous?

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

If your aiming for toe up at p6 what shot shape are you likely playing? I'm guessing trying to play a draw from there would be dangerous?

Not at all. Rory is toe up. Michael Neff has said the players they’ve measured who are toe up at p6 have the most success working the ball both ways. Stronger faced players are usually faders. 

[iceman1118]

This topic really gets me. We see traditional instruction saying club face should match the spine coming into delivery or P6 area. Yet other old school guys like Bradley Hughes who seems to be a tremendous ball striker (first image above ) has the toe more up at P6. So I don’t know what the answer is. 
 

I live in the 115-118 range with driver, low 90s with 7 iron. My grip is pretty neutral. When I take my grip, I have the club at about 45 degrees above horizontal with my elbows sort of on my chest and my upper arms, forearms and hands relaxed. Just feels natural to me. The only way I can get the “shut” face at P6 is to either bow the heck out of my left wrist (which hurts my wrist) or use a ridiculously strong left hand grip, almost palm down and 4 knuckle ish. But this feels awful and it’s just long and left city. 
 

I’m not sure if this is match up related but I’m with @bladehunter, toe up at P6 just seems more natural to me.

 

Would love to hear other opinions on this because I think it’s very interesting. 

[Golfbeat]

For most good players, the clubface at impact is about 30 degrees closed compared to the setup position. I am assuming some forward shaft lean at impact. Some will close it already before P6 others after, but it will have to be closed.

[bladehunter]

16 hours ago, KD1 said:

If your aiming for toe up at p6 what shot shape are you likely playing? I'm guessing trying to play a draw from there would be dangerous?

You can play either if your path is neutral and plane upright( neutral )  

Edited December 31, 2023 by bladehunter

[iceman1118]

28 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

For most good players, the clubface at impact is about 30 degrees closed compared to the setup position. I am assuming some forward shaft lean at impact. Some will close it already before P6 others after, but it will have to be closed.

Right, I think this is what makes the conversation interesting. 
 

I can close the face 30 degrees or so when I grip the club. Kinda like Shawn Clement’s grip ideas if anyone is familiar with that. 
 

I can also shove my hands forward for “shaft lean” at impact and the face is also closed. We know this doesn’t work. 
 

Or is it hand speed and impact conditions that create the “shaft lean” and closed face?

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, iceman1118 said:

Right, I think this is what makes the conversation interesting. 
 

I can close the face 30 degrees or so when I grip the club. Kinda like Shawn Clement’s grip ideas if anyone is familiar with that. 
 

I can also shove my hands forward for “shaft lean” at impact and the face is also closed. We know this doesn’t work. 
 

Or is it hand speed and impact conditions that create the “shaft lean” and closed face?

for someone who doesn’t have enough shaft lean relative to their clubhead speed, they need to learn about how to turn down the face and then start the ball on their intended line. Mid and higher handicaps, particularly those who hit their irons extremely short for their clubhead speed are usually missing this turn down (twist) 

[iceman1118]

7 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

for someone who doesn’t have enough shaft lean relative to their clubhead speed, they need to learn about how to turn down the face and then start the ball on their intended line. Mid and higher handicaps, particularly those who hit their irons extremely short for their clubhead speed are usually missing this turn down (twist) 

Understood and agreed. 
 

What about better players? Does everyone turn down/motorcycle to some degree? Or can a feeling of a cupped left wrist into impact be beneficial? When I’m striking it well the last thing on my mind is turn the shaft down

[MPStrat]

13 minutes ago, iceman1118 said:

Understood and agreed. 
 

What about better players? Does everyone turn down/motorcycle to some degree? Or can a feeling of a cupped left wrist into impact be beneficial? When I’m striking it well the last thing on my mind is turn the shaft down

Everyone good ball striker turns down. The amount of reverse motorcycle can vary. But the important thing to know is that these are 2 different movements.
 

The lead hand reverse motorcycle description is missing an important piece. That’s the turn down part of it. It’s the reverse motorcycle plus lead forearm supination. The supination is the “turn down”. Some like to over exaggerate the amount of lead wrist bowing, but without the turning down of the lead hand, the move is incomplete.

 

Feels can be a weird phenomenon so I don’t like to dismiss anything in that category.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by MPStrat

[iceman1118]

10 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Everyone good ball striker turns down. The amount of reverse motorcycle can vary. But the important thing to know is that these are 2 different movements.
 

The lead hand reverse motorcycle description is missing an important piece. That’s the turn down part of it. It’s the reverse motorcycle plus lead forearm supination. The supination is the “turn down”. Some like to over exaggerate the amount of lead wrist bowing, but without the turning down of the lead hand, the move is incomplete.

 

Feels can be a weird phenomenon so I don’t like to dismiss anything in that category.

 

 

Interesting. This is where I get completely lost and should stop overthinking. Any good examples or videos to expand on this?

Edited December 31, 2023 by iceman1118

[bladehunter]

15 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Everyone good ball striker turns down. The amount of reverse motorcycle can vary. But the important thing to know is that these are 2 different movements.
 

The lead hand reverse motorcycle description is missing an important piece. That’s the turn down part of it. It’s the reverse motorcycle plus lead forearm supination. The supination is the “turn down”. Some like to over exaggerate the amount of lead wrist bowing, but without the turning down of the lead hand, the move is incomplete.

 

Feels can be a weird phenomenon so I don’t like to dismiss anything in that category.

 

 

Agree here. Turning the shaft down has always been an instinctive thought of mine.  Can’t hit a draw without that.  To hit a fade you hold that off.  To me it’s a combo of lead hand and trail though.  I play a very neutral grip. Both hands. The trail hand needs to turn down .  This is my feel for a mid window draw.  Because the clubface matches the right ( trail ) hand. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by bladehunter

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree here. Turning the shaft down has always been an instinctive thought of mine.  Can’t hit a draw without that.  To hit a fade you hold that off.  To me it’s a combo of lead hand and trail though.  I play a very neutral grip. Both hands. The trail hand needs to turn down .  This is my feel for a mid window draw.  Because the clubface matches the right ( trail ) hand. 

Yep trail hand works well too, but some have to be careful the turn down isn’t coming as much from the elbow or shoulder but more from the forearm

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, iceman1118 said:

Interesting. This is where I get completely lost and should stop overthinking. Any good examples or videos to expand on this?

Most videos I’ve seen cover one or the other. Motorcycle or forearm rotation. John Dunnigan did a good one with Eric Cogorno a while back that I thought was good on lead arm supination. I’ll try to find it.

[bladehunter]

4 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Yep trail hand works well too, but some have to be careful the turn down isn’t coming as much from the elbow or shoulder but more from the forearm

Right.  I take that for granted because my feel for it is from my fingers. And wrist. Long thumb pinching with pointer is my control.  This is directly tied to forearm and wrist.  People playing strong grips and thumbs to the side.  Rely on something that is foreign to me. 

[bladehunter]

Rory.  Not wide open. But not shut.  

[bladehunter]

Compared to just post impact. He’s turning  it way down from parallel to impact. 

[bladehunter]

Hard to make out. But. This is Adam Scott on a perfect driver swing.  The toe is up , face is open. And he draws it most of the time.   Whole short posted below it to see the swing. 
 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

I’m not out searching for this. Just watching swing videos , sick on the couch.  , seems to be extremely common. No ?  Here’s Charlie woods. 
 

 

[virtuoso]

Best P6 on the WRX, my biches.

 

[polski]

I used to play with a very closed face but always struggled with hitting it left. Made a small trail hand grip adjustment and got it a bit more toe up at P6. Hit it much straighter. Problem now is my club path started to go a bit too much out to in. 

Edited January 1 by polski

[naval2006]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:16 PM, MPStrat said:

Everyone good ball striker turns down. The amount of reverse motorcycle can vary. But the important thing to know is that these are 2 different movements.
 

The lead hand reverse motorcycle description is missing an important piece. That’s the turn down part of it. It’s the reverse motorcycle plus lead forearm supination. The supination is the “turn down”. Some like to over exaggerate the amount of lead wrist bowing, but without the turning down of the lead hand, the move is incomplete.

 

Feels can be a weird phenomenon so I don’t like to dismiss anything in that category.

 

 

What’s reverse motorcycle? Been around WRX for a while but this is completely new to me. Pardon my ignorance. 

[Primo1868]

40 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

What’s reverse motorcycle? Been around WRX for a while but this is completely new to me. Pardon my ignorance. 

Instead of twisting the throttle to make the motorcycle, "go fast"; you would do the opposite. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:

Instead of twisting the throttle to make the motorcycle, "go fast"; you would do the opposite. 

 

And with the other hand, too.

 

Palmar flexion of the lead wrist, basically.

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, naval2006 said:

What’s reverse motorcycle? Been around WRX for a while but this is completely new to me. Pardon my ignorance. 

People often say “motorcycle” but that’s actually opposite of the move that most would desire. Reverse motorcycle is the more accurate term. @Primo1868 covered it 

[Golfbeat]

On 12/31/2023 at 9:39 PM, polski said:

I used to play with a very closed face but always struggled with hitting it left. Made a small trail hand grip adjustment and got it a bit more toe up at P6. Hit it much straighter. Problem now is my club path started to go a bit too much out to in. 

 

Forward shaft lean at impact will be an important factor. If your clubface is more closed at impact you will need more forward shaft lean to hit it straight. So if your club face is closed and you have no forward shaft lean you will hit it left all day long.