What does this bowlers drill help with?

[Duffer Mark]

Dennis Sales posted a Bowlers drill on X. On his X post with this drill he wrote:

 

“Lately I’ve seen much on ground reaction forces being a NECESSITY to create vast club head speed. That golfers should go to the gym and work on their legs. I have not been to gym regularly in like 20 years. In last 12 years, I’ve gone maybe 10 times. In both posted videos, I’m not using ground reaction forces like any of them talk about, I did not extend my leg to jump but I still hit my stock normal speed 7 iron. Not only was that my normal 7 iron speed it was my normal carry distance. ”

 

Have any of you ever used this drill? What does it help with?

 

source: https://x.com/dennissalesgolf/status/1800528639659778435

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Duffer Mark said:

Have any of you ever used this drill? What does it help with?

 

source: https://x.com/dennissalesgolf/status/1800528639659778435

 

I think he's demonstrating that you can still swing fast without nearly as much GRF.

 

See also…

 

 

I've been on the "GRF is over-rated" (it's more nuanced than that but… that's the nickel title) bandwagon for… almost a decade? Less so lately, but when force plates, etc. first came out, you couldn't have a golf conversation without it going there. Dennis is picking up the torch a bit and running with it (I haven't talked to Dennis about any of this, I'm not claiming anything like that). We went to Penn State when Mike Duffy was still there and made a bunch of swings where we literally jumped in the air, etc.

 

So… again, I think it's more demonstration than drill/exercise?

 

I'll reach out to Dennis. It's been awhile.

 

P.S. Edit to add: "It is the combination of both [exercise/drill and demonstration]. The concept works really well for those who extend too fast and for those who don’t get forward shaft lean."

 

Edited June 16 by iacas
Added P.S.

[Duffer Mark]

@iacas, thanks. When I asked him about the drill he replied with a question asking me what I thought it helped with. I replied that it helped with club path and spinning out. 
 

He said that and more. I didn’t find his replies helpful. LOL

[KD1]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

I think it's more demonstration than drill/exercise?

 

Maybe a bit exaggerated above but it's a drill he uses. He said he's had this student doing nothing else for months

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6d1ThMuQ_9/?igsh=bnA3cDZoaXM2cWx5

[KD1]

13 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Have any of you ever used this drill? What does it help with?

 

 

I use it for working on keeping my trail knee from lunging toward the ball early in the downswing.

[Nels55]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I think he's demonstrating that you can still swing fast without nearly as much GRF.

 

See also…

 

 

I've been on the "GRF is over-rated" (it's more nuanced than that but… that's the nickel title) bandwagon for… almost a decade? Less so lately, but when force plates, etc. first came out, you couldn't have a golf conversation without it going there. Dennis is picking up the torch a bit and running with it (I haven't talked to Dennis about any of this, I'm not claiming anything like that). We went to Penn State when Mike Duffy was still there and made a bunch of swings where we literally jumped in the air, etc.

 

So… again, I think it's more demonstration than drill/exercise?

 

I'll reach out to Dennis. It's been awhile.

 

P.S. Edit to add: "It is the combination of both [exercise/drill and demonstration]. The concept works really well for those who extend too fast and for those who don’t get forward shaft lean."

 

My understanding is that currently there are 3 ground force peaks measured; horizontal, torque and vertical.  Is it possible the bowler drill is using a lot of torque GF?  Does the system that you have measure torque?  I remember Scott Lynn saying something to the effect that adding torque GF never hurts anyone's swing or always helps something like that. 

 

At any rate it seems to me that more speed has to show up somewhere in GF measurement?  

[MonteScheinblum]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I think he's demonstrating that you can still swing fast without nearly as much GRF.

 

See also…

 

 

I've been on the "GRF is over-rated" (it's more nuanced than that but… that's the nickel title) bandwagon for… almost a decade? Less so lately, but when force plates, etc. first came out, you couldn't have a golf conversation without it going there. Dennis is picking up the torch a bit and running with it (I haven't talked to Dennis about any of this, I'm not claiming anything like that). We went to Penn State when Mike Duffy was still there and made a bunch of swings where we literally jumped in the air, etc.

 

So… again, I think it's more demonstration than drill/exercise?

 

I'll reach out to Dennis. It's been awhile.

 

P.S. Edit to add: "It is the combination of both [exercise/drill and demonstration]. The concept works really well for those who extend too fast and for those who don’t get forward shaft lean."

 

I’m with you. Every buzz word distance miracle is way over rated.  It’s a pinch of this and a pinch of that and the results of good movements.

 

Lag

Getting Open

GRF

Side bending

Shaft lean

X factor

etc.

 

Actively trying to get these things and more is better just killed each generation of golfer it was fed to.  They all still persist at some level and the purveyors still spout it.

 

If you set up decent, make a decent backswing, shift at a decent time and don’t over/under use any body part in transition, you get all of the above in the amount you personally should.

[Razor4888]

I had a lesson recently with Dennis and he had me doing this drill. My issue was that I had an arms backswing and too much body in my downswing, leaving my right arm stuck behind me. This drill helped quiet my lower body on the downswing so I could get my arms down in front of my body. I am hitting the ball much better for now (at least on the driving range). 

[Duffer Mark]

I briefly tried this drill and had to really slow down just to hit the ball. I was pressed for time so didn't really get to work with the drill. After just trying it four times, I can't believe how much speed Dennis was able to get with it. I can imagine learning to move your arms fast with this drill would likely translate to more speed in the regular swing.

[Deadaimz]

I'd be scared to try this drill I'm trying to get less in to out. Nonetheless, I'll give it a go.

 

https://x.com/DennisSalesGolf/status/1802146872611442770

Edited June 17 by Deadaimz

[KD1]

The drill is trail foot back, trail foot should just feel dead. So this really takes all the lower body (GRF) out of the equation. If you're like me and used to spinning hips or shoulders out then it takes a minute to get used to.

 

In my case (ymmv) if my trail leg did anything but just get dragged along for the ride I was doing it wrong. From the down the line view I didn't want to see a gap between my knees in the follow through. The gap indicated I was engaging my trail leg too much for this drill. As a trail knee lunger this is easier said than done. Less Morikawa and more like the rest of these guys:

 

 

As you and I mentioned over in the thread iacas linked, based on Dennis posts last week, it seems like he favors speed coming from his wrists. Cast B maybe?

 

After getting used to the drill I'd say I don't loose much distance at all.

 

Edited June 17 by KD1

[Dabetic]

Seems like an exaggerated version of the flamingo drill. Forces you to use left foot more and not throw the right hip at the ball. Don't do it often, but I find the feels useful

 

It's like pre-setting the force that is right foot going away from the target line ala hockey slapshot / bowling 

[Hawkeye77]

Only works on holes 7/10.

[Soloman1]

yeah, the grf thing has been overcooked when talking about vertical. you can’t try to maximize all three. that’s just dumb.

 

how do you want your steak, grilled, fried or roasted?

all three! it’s gotta be better, right?

 

some are better with more lateral, some more rotational (like dj) and some vertical. heck, kuchar is like almost none and still making the u.s.open cut.

 

golf is still all about “it depends.” people with weaker grips get more from verticals (look at jt), stronger grips get more from rotational.

 

trouble with chasing driver speed with always more vertical is they never show you how long drive wild the shots become. they only point to clubhead speed on the launch monitor.

 

the trail foot back swing (not as extreme as above) is still great to get chronic slicers to feel what inside-out impact feels like. they immediately get more distance from better impact.

 

Edited June 17 by Soloman1

[KD1]

@Duffer Mark Dennis is live with a panel discussing the bowler drill right now

 

https://www.instagram.com/dennissalesgolf/live/18049741831738767?igsh=MXBreTN6NmU5cW5kbg==

[Duffer Mark]

Thanks. I missed it and I’m not on Instagram. 

[KD1]

Cliff notes: in addition to what's been said above the drill helps with horizontal grf and tamping down vertical. Most amateurs can't time vertical. It's all about learning to really engage and speed up the arms

[Duffer Mark]

Thanks. I was able to watch anyway without having a log in. It would have been nice if they communicated as clearly and succinctly as you summarized. 😆

[dvq9654]

As someone who has always spun open too quickly and struggled to stop my trail side from crashing, this drill is very helpful. I'm working my way back up after a long break and I think I may use this as a big part of my practice, as it seems to kill three birds with one stone: 1) back to target longer; 2) keeps right hip back and forces left hip to move more properly; and 3) limits slide. 

[Duffer Mark]

@dvq9654, I’ve only had time to try it a couple times. I’ve got to go very slow to hit the ball. Anything from a moderate swing speed to close to normal speed and I miss the ball completely. 

[dvq9654]

59 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

@dvq9654, I’ve only had time to try it a couple times. I’ve got to go very slow to hit the ball. Anything from a moderate swing speed to close to normal speed and I miss the ball completely. 

keep in mind that if you are doing this right, you should be hitting it off the toe and probably missing it to the right. If you are hitting in the heel and or to the left, I would venture to say you are not accomplishing what you are seeking. 

[Duffer Mark]

51 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

keep in mind that if you are doing this right, you should be hitting it off the toe and probably missing it to the right. If you are hitting in the heel and or to the left, I would venture to say you are not accomplishing what you are seeking. 

Yeah, I have no idea how I’m supposed to perform this drill which could result in building a bad habit if I use it.