Cameron Young shoots 59, so…………

[Valtiel]

12 hours ago, nikos74 said:

@Valtiel  Who has a smoother swing?  Who has a better chance of getting hurt?

 

I exaggerated a bit because of my bias in lower core swings.

Smoothness wasn't the question, sequence was, unless you're using those terms interchangeably which.....please don't. 😁

Also i'm not sure how Young *isn't* lower core, which is another term you just seem to throwing out there without really understanding what it means. Young has a *massive* lower body driven pivot, so if you're considering him anywhere near "upper core" via a comparison to Ernie Els, who is more "mid core", then i'd dig into some actual upper core swings like Marc Leishman, Chris Kirk, Jorge Campillo etc. 

[MonteScheinblum]

13 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Smoothness wasn't the question, sequence was, unless you're using those terms interchangeably which.....please don't. 😁

Also i'm not sure how Young *isn't* lower core, which is another term you just seem to throwing out there without really understanding what it means. Young has a *massive* lower body driven pivot, so if you're considering him anywhere near "upper core" via a comparison to Ernie Els, who is more "mid core", then i'd dig into some actual upper core swings like Marc Leishman, Chris Kirk, Jorge Campillo etc. 

Here’s my experience on this forum.

 

There are 2 types of posters.  
 

1.  Those that are open minded, like to be part of a discussion and learn new things.  The majority.

 

2.  Those that are close minded, like to be steadfast in their own beliefs in spite of facts and like to tell members of group 1 they are close minded and only have one way of thinking.

[doctor220]

6 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

I don't totally agree with the statement that brought on this response, but why is there always one guy that has to respond this way?

 

Most of the guys who win majors don't have the first clue in teaching the golf swing. Thank God that's not a requirement to teach or some of the best instructors in the world would be out of jobs.

Of course it’s not necessary to be elite playing wise but when you say someone who is an elite player has a crap swing, that’s probably a dumb comment. No one who is elite at golf has a bad swing. 
 

that doesn’t mean you would teach their idiosyncrasies to a beginner, but it still is a great swing that produces their elite results 

Edited June 24 by doctor220

[svlido]

On 6/22/2024 at 1:00 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Tomorrow on ranges across the planet people will be practicing transitions whose duration can be measured with a sundial.

 

A percentage of them will have an epiphany that they’ve found the secret and everyone will be struggling more than usual 2-3 weeks from now because their sequence will be worse than before.

 

There are tons of people who would benefit from practicing that transition and then not thinking about it when they get on the course.  

[MonteScheinblum]

37 minutes ago, svlido said:

 

There are tons of people who would benefit from practicing that transition and then not thinking about it when they get on the course.  

…and that entirely misses the point of what I said.

 

Furthermore, if many practiced that transition and then didn’t think about it without any other change, they’d make themselves worse.

[svlido]

13 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

…and that entirely misses the point of what I said.

 

Furthermore, if many practiced that transition and then didn’t think about it without any other change, they’d make themselves worse.

A lot of good players practice or incorporate exaggerated moves into their pre-shot routine and then don't think about it during their shots on the course.

 

From my experience as a teacher far more players are too quick at transition than patient.

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, svlido said:

A lot of good players practice or incorporate exaggerated moves into their pre-shot routine and then don't think about it during their shots on the course.

 

From my experience as a teacher far more players are too quick at transition than patient.

I agree with part 1 of what you said, I also agree that many players are quick in transition, but Again, you have completely missed the point 

[Obee]

On 6/22/2024 at 11:24 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

He’s obviously not that talented and only good because of the extra long pause.

 

Just think, if I combine the Young pause with the Furyk backswing I can shoot 59 every time.  

 

 

Well ... Have you actually tried it, Monte?!?!

[MonteScheinblum]

14 minutes ago, Obee said:

Well ... Have you actually tried it, Monte?!?!

Yes. 

[nikos74]

21 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Smoothness wasn't the question, sequence was, unless you're using those terms interchangeably which.....please don't. 😁

Also i'm not sure how Young *isn't* lower core, which is another term you just seem to throwing out there without really understanding what it means. Young has a *massive* lower body driven pivot, so if you're considering him anywhere near "upper core" via a comparison to Ernie Els, who is more "mid core", then i'd dig into some actual upper core swings like Marc Leishman, Chris Kirk, Jorge Campillo etc. 

Smoothness is an indication of how well one sequences?

 

I have played the cameron young video at .25 pace a few times and have noticed a massive shoulder turn, barely any hip turn, a steep backswing and steep downswing, heavy squatting on the DS.  In other words he uses the ground very well, but is it really a lower core swing if the hips don't turn much?  Seems midcore to me, just like els is.  But els doesn't squat and has a flatter BS.

 

I will look into the upper core swings you mentioned.

[Obee]

21 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes. 

 

So only shot 60 / 61. I get it.

[SNIPERBBB]

24 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Smoothness is an indication of how well one sequences?

 

I have played the cameron young video at .25 pace a few times and have noticed a massive shoulder turn, barely any hip turn, a steep backswing and steep downswing, heavy squatting on the DS.  In other words he uses the ground very well, but is it really a lower core swing if the hips don't turn much?  Seems midcore to me, just like els is.  But els doesn't squat and has a flatter BS.

 

I will look into the upper core swings you mentioned.

Go to the range and watch all the massively OTT guys swing  they're pretty smooth but completely out of sequence for a decent swing. They generally dont look like they suffered a whole body spasm to start the swing.

[nikos74]

23 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

That poster has been wrong about everything he posted to include denying physics.

 

Despite being corrected on everything and how it’s wrong he continues to post bad information. 

Oh please, golf instructors disagree on a lot of things.  Following content on Youtube for some time it is obvious.  You make it sound like there is uniformity.

[GoGoErky]

22 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Oh please, golf instructors disagree on a lot of things.  Following content on Youtube for some time it is obvious.  You make it sound like there is uniformity.

They may disagree but they agree on a lot more than they disagree and none of them deny physics.

 

You on the other hand have posted nothing but wrong and outdated information that all instructors agree is no longer valid and is bad instruction.

[GoGoErky]

51 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Smoothness is an indication of how well one sequences?

 

I have played the cameron young video at .25 pace a few times and have noticed a massive shoulder turn, barely any hip turn, a steep backswing and steep downswing, heavy squatting on the DS.  In other words he uses the ground very well, but is it really a lower core swing if the hips don't turn much?  Seems midcore to me, just like els is.  But els doesn't squat and has a flatter BS.

 

I will look into the upper core swings you mentioned.

Smoothness has nothing to do with sequence. Kyle Berkshire, Bryson DeChambeau and pretty much every long drive guys is far from smooth and they sequence very well.

 

 

 

 

[Obee]

On 6/22/2024 at 5:25 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

 

One of my favorite comedy scenes of all time. I use it with my kids all the time.

[nikos74]

2 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

They may disagree but they agree on a lot more than they disagree and none of them deny physics.

 

You on the other hand have posted nothing but wrong and outdated information that all instructors agree is no longer valid and is bad instruction.

They are still debating grip pressure.  I posted a video butch harmon saying 5 to 7 out of ten.  Eric Cogorno said grant horvat has 2 to 5 gp.

 

Plenty of instructors saying swing left with a relative open clubface to create a fade and vice versa for a draw.  Either they don't know the new ball flight laws or they prefer the old ones.

 

Milo Lines and Martin Ayers disagree with "let the hands and arms make the body adjust" methodology.  I wasn't even aware such a swing existed before a month ago.  Apparently what Monte teaches is similar to what Mike Malaska and Manuel De La Torre teach.

 

One plane swings are not very common anymore, probably because of the rotation they demand from the hips in the BS and because shallowing the club in the transition is well understood.  Raising the arms up with lots of elbow separation doesn't require super depth.  But 1PS is not wrong at all, in fact in theory it makes the most sense.

[betarhoalphadelta]

19 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

 

Plenty of instructors saying swing left with a relative open clubface to create a fade and vice versa for a draw.  Either they don't know the new ball flight laws or they prefer the old ones.

 

 

Relative is the key word there.

 

Swinging left (with a path out->in relative to target) with a face open to the path but CLOSED to the target will create a pull fade.

 

Swinging right (with a path in->out relative to target) with a face closed to the path but OPEN to the target will create a push draw. 

 

Totally consistent with the "new" ball flight laws. 

 

Whereas an out->in path with a face square/open to the target will give you something between a push fade into the right rough or a banana slice into the next fairway. And an in->out path with a face square/closed to the target will give you something between a pull hook into the left rough and a snap hook into god knows where. 

[MonteScheinblum]

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Obee said:

One of my favorite comedy scenes of all time. I use it with my kids all the time.

I think that serious card players would be quick to check on the financial status of the dweeb...  Always a seat open for a fat wallet with no brains.

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

They are still debating grip pressure.  I posted a video butch harmon saying 5 to 7 out of ten.  Eric Cogorno said grant horvat has 2 to 5 gp.

 

Plenty of instructors saying swing left with a relative open clubface to create a fade and vice versa for a draw.  Either they don't know the new ball flight laws or they prefer the old ones.

 

Milo Lines and Martin Ayers disagree with "let the hands and arms make the body adjust" methodology.  I wasn't even aware such a swing existed before a month ago.  Apparently what Monte teaches is similar to what Mike Malaska and Manuel De La Torre teach.

 

One plane swings are not very common anymore, probably because of the rotation they demand from the hips in the BS and because shallowing the club in the transition is well understood.  Raising the arms up with lots of elbow separation doesn't require super depth.  But 1PS is not wrong at all, in fact in theory it makes the most sense.

The conversation over grip pressure is because it’s a feel thing and what one person feels is different than what another person feels. My 7 isn’t the same as someone’s else’s 7.

 

This isn’t disagreement or debate, it’s a discussion. But anyone that can critically think would see that and not say it’s a debate. 
 

they know the new ball flight laws and want they are saying is inline with them and if you understood them you would see that.

 

Each instructor has their methods for teaching based on their experience and in some case preference. Monte and GG disagree about leave the hands up, but that doesn’t make either right or wrong. In some cases it’s more a feel than what happens. 

Edited Tuesday at 12:22 AM by GoGoErky

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

They may disagree but they agree on a lot more than they disagree and none of them deny physics.

 

You on the other hand have posted nothing but wrong and outdated information that all instructors agree is no longer valid and is bad instruction.

Apparently some disagreement means you can declare anything disproven as still being valid.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Apparently some disagreement means you can declare anything disproven as still being valid.

When 80 to 90% of what you say is objectively wrong, the easiest way to rationalize that is to show subjective disagreement between actual experts

[GoGoErky]

24 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Apparently some disagreement means you can declare anything disproven as still being valid.

Apparently. Learned something new today 😂

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

When 80 to 90% of what you say is objectively wrong, the easiest way to rationalize that is to show subjective disagreement between actual experts

Yep. The old look at that distraction 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Yep. The old look at that distraction 

Mom! They’re wrong too!🤭

[Valtiel]

10 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Smoothness is an indication of how well one sequences?

If that's a rhetorical question then i'd challenge the rhetoric, because smoothness is aesthetic and sequence is time-based and positional. Out there in the wild there just as many "smooth as butter" swings that are terribly out of sequence and more than a few herky-jerky ones that are perfectly in it.
 

Quote

I have played the cameron young video at .25 pace a few times and have noticed a massive shoulder turn, barely any hip turn, a steep backswing and steep downswing, heavy squatting on the DS.  In other words he uses the ground very well, but is it really a lower core swing if the hips don't turn much?  Seems midcore to me, just like els is.  But els doesn't squat and has a flatter BS.

Barely any hip turn? A steep downswing? I mean I agree regarding the squatting and ground force as that's accurate but...



This is the man you're talking about? The man with one of the bigger hip turns among modern power players, and a perfectly on plane (not steep) downswing? If your definitions of "hip turn", "steep", and "lower/upper core" lead you to apply them to Cameron Young then all of your definitions are 180* backwards and Larry Rinker would swat you with a rolled up newspaper for applying the latter to Young, the epitome of what a modern "lower core" swing looks like:

1) Degree of hip turn
2) Hip clearance at impact
3) Spine angle at impact

Every one of those is the "most" in a lower core swing (big hip/lower body power, big clearance at impact, spine angle completely maintained) and the "least" in an upper core swing (smaller turn, little to no clearance at impact, spine angle straightened).

Edited Tuesday at 07:15 AM by Valtiel

[nikos74]

9 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

"The conversation over grip pressure is because it’s a feel thing and what one person feels is different than what another person feels. My 7 isn’t the same as someone’s else’s 7.

 

This isn’t disagreement or debate, it’s a discussion. But anyone that can critically think would see that and not say it’s a debate."

 

Some people were saying grab it as tight as you can.  That is what I disagreed with because it can create tension in the body and significantly reduce swing efficiency.  The feel is based on the baseline grip pressure each person has.

 

"they know the new ball flight laws and want they are saying is inline with them and if you understood them you would see that."

 

Admittedly I am learning about that now.  I have been away from the game for a long time and some things have changed.  Or maybe a lot.

9 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

 

"Each instructor has their methods for teaching based on their experience and in some case preference. Monte and GG disagree about leave the hands up, but that doesn’t make either right or wrong. In some cases it’s more a feel than what happens."

Never said monte's system was wrong,, just not familiar with it and it seems unorthodox.  Yes It comes down to feel and preference.

Edited Tuesday at 10:00 AM by nikos74

[GoGoErky]

16 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Never said monte's system was wrong,, just not familiar with it and it seems unorthodox.  Yes It comes down to feel and preference.

Again showing your lack of knowledge.

 

He teaches a proper golf swing backed by science and measured data of what the best golfers do. It’s the samething that AMG teaches, inline with Eric Cogorno, Jake Hutt and a multitude of other teachers.

 

If you are using his no turn cast series and thread or some of his other videos as your basis, those are drills, very similar to things like drill Dustin rose does, they are exaggerations in most instances to teach a movement. Which if that’s what your basing on shows how little you understand about teaching movements 

Far from unorthodox. I would recommend you get familiar with things before you speak on them and continue to post bad information.

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:16 AM by GoGoErky

[nikos74]

5 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Again showing your lack of knowledge.

 

He teaches a proper golf swing backed by science and measured data of what the best golfers do. It’s the samething that AMG teaches, inline with Eric Cogorno, Jake Hutt and a multitude of other teachers.

Far from unorthodox. I would recommend you get familiar with things before you speak on them and continue to post bad information.

 

But it's not compatible with some swings that require passive arms and hands.  Passive does not mean inactive.