The Big Picture of Biokinetics in a golf swing motion

[JD3]

Why should I want to ? Mike says about The Move as a conscious action. My work was, is and always will be against any conscious actions one can imagine in the swing motion. Presets, stance, grip and correct backswing automates everything. The rest is just the beauty of the SPC theory.

 

Cheers

Well that answers the question then: you're not onboard with it.

[Dariusz J.]

Why should I want to ? Mike says about The Move as a conscious action. My work was, is and always will be against any conscious actions one can imagine in the swing motion. Presets, stance, grip and correct backswing automates everything. The rest is just the beauty of the SPC theory.

 

Cheers

Well that answers the question then: you're not onboard with it.

 

If you wanted to know what I think about Mike's theory, why haven't you asked it clearily then in your 2nd post instead trying to dig secret holes under myself ? Are you James Bond ? :D

 

Cheers

[JD3]

If you wanted to know what I think about Mike's theory, why haven't you asked it clearily then in your 2nd post instead trying to dig secret holes under myself ? Are you James Bond ? :D

 

Cheers

I didn't specifically want to know what you thought about his theory, sorry if it came across that way. I was just using him as the best example of someone that places a lot of emphasis on footwork.

[Dariusz J.]

If you wanted to know what I think about Mike's theory, why haven't you asked it clearily then in your 2nd post instead trying to dig secret holes under myself ? Are you James Bond ? :D

 

Cheers

I didn't specifically want to know what you thought about his theory, sorry if it came across that way. I was just using him as the best example of someone that places a lot of emphasis on footwork.

 

No probs. A lot of emphasis should be on footwoork.

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

If you wanted to know what I think about Mike's theory, why haven't you asked it clearily then in your 2nd post instead trying to dig secret holes under myself ? Are you James Bond ? :D

 

Cheers

I didn't specifically want to know what you thought about his theory, sorry if it came across that way. I was just using him as the best example of someone that places a lot of emphasis on footwork.

 

No probs. A lot of emphasis should be on footwoork.

 

Cheers

 

 

So dJ are you going to make alterations to the theory to appease the above line of questioning?

 

What about tailbone release ? Is this automatic as well ?

[Swoosh-Thud]

That's what I'm saying, your forum has body sections comparable to Hardy's, but you don't give feet or footwork a seperate section.

 

 

I've always been told good ballstrikers have quiet feet.

[Dariusz J.]

So dJ are you going to make alterations to the theory to appease the above line of questioning?

 

What about tailbone release ? Is this automatic as well ?

 

No alteratons, Eight. I mentioned abot feetwork that happens before the swing begins (see also my response to Frank below).

As regards the tailbone release - well, yes, I daresay it is automatic when the CoG shift is done properly and on time thanks to the SPC concept. That's why the linear element is necessary before the rotation starts what is well visible in post-accident Hogan's swing. That's why all important things should be done before the swing begins that forces this linear motion to happen.

 

 

I've always been told good ballstrikers have quiet feet.

 

Definitely. All necessary footwork should be done at address (see: diagonal stance and presets) in order to ensure their correct motion. IMO, any attention that is paid to feet or to any other body part during the swing introduces a timing element. Feet muscles and feet bones are working during the swing and working hard (since they are the only one connection with the ground) but this work should be unintentional. Same as with walking or running.

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

So dJ are you going to make alterations to the theory to appease the above line of questioning?

 

What about tailbone release ? Is this automatic as well ?

 

No alteratons, Eight. I mentioned abot feetwork that happens before the swing begins (see also my response to Frank below).

As regards the tailbone release - well, yes, I daresay it is automatic when the CoG shift is done properly and on time thanks to the SPC concept. That's why the linear element is necessary before the rotation starts what is well visible in post-accident Hogan's swing. That's why all important things should be done before the swing begins that forces this linear motion to happen.

 

 

I've always been told good ballstrikers have quiet feet.

 

Definitely. All necessary footwork should be done at address (see: diagonal stance and presets) in order to ensure their correct motion. IMO, any attention that is paid to feet or to any other body part during the swing introduces a timing element. Feet muscles and feet bones are working during the swing and working hard (since they are the only one connection with the ground) but this work should be unintentional. Same as with walking or running.

 

Cheers

 

 

Well what about hand path and delivery lines . Surely golfers should do work on this so they don't have any blackouts as to where their hands are . Once the player gets the pivot zone as optimal as they can surely the player is better off knowing what and where his hands are..you know.. hands controlled pivot takes over to get to the highest level to control delivery line for different shots...in fact the pivot controlling the hands totally is one big blackout ..lights out...thoughts? :D

[Dariusz J.]

Well what about hand path and delivery lines . Surely golfers should do work on this so they don't have any blackouts as to where their hands are . Once the player gets the pivot zone as optimal as they can surely the player is better off knowing what and where his hands are..you know.. hands controlled pivot takes over to get to the highest level to control delivery line for different shots...in fact the pivot controlling the hands totally is one big blackout ..lights out...thoughts? :D

 

IMHO, the pivot can control hands very well provided the sequence of events is correct. The hands are the parts of the upper distal limbs that are connected to the main body and they must respond to what happens with the main body. Usually, all the problems with arms happen because they are relatively too long comparing to the body and their only one link to the body is a very weak shoulder joint that gives a very wide range of motions. That's why, in everyday life, we can benefit from it and we can do a lot of things with our arms and hands.

Golf swing is different - it does not require such a big freedom of motion, moreover, the range of motion disturbs and affect negatively the repeatability and consistency of the whole swing motion. That's why the range of motion should be limited as much as possible, e.g. with presets or proper grip.

 

Hands controlled pivot is an utopia, IMO. Distal parts of the body such as hands simply physically cannot control the main body action because their impact on what happens with the main body is close to zero. Only in case of golfers with already established great body turn we could think about controlling the trajectory via hands...but even in those cases it is difficult to say that hands are controlling the pivot. I'd call it a fine tuning, but not a control from A to Z. But this is too far away for my theory, since it does not deal with shaping trajectories, but with eliminating timing issues in order to automate the motion as much as possible.

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

Well what about hand path and delivery lines . Surely golfers should do work on this so they don't have any blackouts as to where their hands are . Once the player gets the pivot zone as optimal as they can surely the player is better off knowing what and where his hands are..you know.. hands controlled pivot takes over to get to the highest level to control delivery line for different shots...in fact the pivot controlling the hands totally is one big blackout ..lights out...thoughts? :D

 

IMHO, the pivot can control hands very well provided the sequence of events is correct. The hands are the parts of the upper distal limbs that are connected to the main body and they must respond to what happens with the main body. Usually, all the problems with arms happen because they are relatively too long comparing to the body and their only one link to the body is a very weak shoulder joint that gives a very wide range of motions. That's why, in everyday life, we can benefit from it and we can do a lot of things with our arms and hands.

Golf swing is different - it does not require such a big freedom of motion, moreover, the range of motion disturbs and affect negatively the repeatability and consistency of the whole swing motion. That's why the range of motion should be limited as much as possible, e.g. with presets or proper grip.

 

Hands controlled pivot is an utopia, IMO. Distal parts of the body such as hands simply physically cannot control the main body action because their impact on what happens with the main body is close to zero. Only in case of golfers with already established great body turn we could think about controlling the trajectory via hands...but even in those cases it is difficult to say that hands are controlling the pivot. I'd call it a fine tuning, but not a control from A to Z. But this is too far away for my theory, since it does not deal with shaping trajectories, but with eliminating timing issues in order to automate the motion as much as possible.

 

Cheers

 

 

Utopia sounds good :beach: ..What if you select a certain hand path and move your hands on that path ( e.g up/back/in) and select a wrist condition at the top..surely the body will respond and move to accomodate this..and on the way down select a delivery line for the path

[Dariusz J.]

What if you select a certain hand path and move your hands on that path ( e.g up/back/in) and select a wrist condition at the top..surely the body will respond and move to accomodate this..and on the way down select a delivery line for the path

 

Of course the body will respond, however, it would be impossible to benefit from natural main body limitations in such scenario, hence the patern would be very timing dependent, IMO. It would be difficult to automate the transition phase as well; the impact phase would surely require educated hands - would be difficult to introduce e.g. a nunchakoo concept; I see lots of repetition work for a golfer who chooses this way of playing golf.

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

What if you select a certain hand path and move your hands on that path ( e.g up/back/in) and select a wrist condition at the top..surely the body will respond and move to accomodate this..and on the way down select a delivery line for the path

 

Of course the body will respond, however, it would be impossible to benefit from natural main body limitations in such scenario, hence the patern would be very timing dependent, IMO. It would be difficult to automate the transition phase as well; the impact phase would surely require educated hands - would be difficult to introduce e.g. a nunchakoo concept; I see lots of repetition work for a golfer who chooses this way of playing golf.

 

Cheers

 

 

You could also say that using a correct hand path on the backswing will let the body find its limitations as well and players who choose a wrist condition towards the top end ( e.g fred couples ) will get a natural counterfall motion in transition to accomodate this movement...now how about that for automatic :diablo: :D

[Swoosh-Thud]

Concentric circles. The spine moves what 3" on the BS, the sternum 9" the shoulders 18" and the clubhead 27'.

 

Quiet feet, quiet body/minimize lateral motion (...keep it circular, not eliptical [you knew that was coming :man_in_love: ]) good pivot, pivot controls the arms, hands only hold onto the club and everything else is automatic.

 

That was simple.......why won't my body listen.................getting even for years of abuse?

[Dariusz J.]

You could also say that using a correct hand path on the backswing will let the body find its limitations as well and players who choose a wrist condition towards the top end ( e.g fred couples ) will get a natural counterfall motion in transition to accomodate this movement...now how about that for automatic :diablo: :D

 

OK, let's look closer: if the hands control the pivot it is inevitable that the lead shoulder will be pulled because this is the first joint between arms and main body to respond (rear side not active) the hands. It will lead to scenario that the lead side will push the rear side - therefore, a compression instead expansion in the backswing. If there is no compression before change of orientation, the process of CoG shift onto the lead hip joint won't be finished before transition.

You are right that the transition then must be just a counterfall motion, thus, less dynamic (less float loading). Perhaps this is why Couples's linear shift happens during or even after transition and not before it making his downswing a combination of the linear and rotational elements. Look please at 1:03-05 sec. in this video:

 

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Concentric circles. The spine moves what 3" on the BS, the sternum 9" the shoulders 18" and the clubhead 27'.

 

Quiet feet, quiet body/minimize lateral motion (...keep it circular, not eliptical [you knew that was coming :man_in_love: ]) good pivot, pivot controls the arms, hands only hold onto the club and everything else is automatic.

 

That was simple.......why won't my body listen.................getting even for years of abuse?

 

...perhaps because you try to minimize over the dead bodies what is necessary, Frank ;)

 

Your concentric circles are a great example. Exactly, circles, not elipses. But only after the CoG transfer. Without it either they are elipses or you are spinning out.

 

Cheers

[JD3]

OK, here's a question for you: at what point in Hogan's swing do the arms/hands become mostly dependant on the body turn? If you accept that a) the arms were subordinate to the body pivot at impact and b) the arms were active at the start of the backswing (BH did say hands start first), then at what point in the swing do they go from active to passive?

[Swoosh-Thud]

JDC

 

Always. The hands 1. grip the club and 2. **** the wrists nothing more

 

If you maintain your "triangle" going back as your first move ie 1 piece takeaway, the arm/shoulder complex go back first, but ultimately that is subordinate to the pivot isn't it..........................

[JD3]

Good post Frank

[JD3]

What role does swing visualization play in your philosophy? I think setup focus is terrific (as opposed to a "to do" list of "how to" swing positions), but I also think it's vital to have an overall image to govern the dynamic motion.

 

From "See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside":

 

"The mind relates best to images, movements, results and feedback, not words. A mental image precedes every physical action that we perform. Without question, the most important keys in golf are concepts and visualizations of the swing that are stored in the mind’s eye. The golf swing that your body will try to make is based on the concepts and visualizations in your mind’s eye."

 

If you agree what concepts and visualizations do you recommend?

[martinez]

Well what about hand path and delivery lines . Surely golfers should do work on this so they don't have any blackouts as to where their hands are . Once the player gets the pivot zone as optimal as they can surely the player is better off knowing what and where his hands are..you know.. hands controlled pivot takes over to get to the highest level to control delivery line for different shots...in fact the pivot controlling the hands totally is one big blackout ..lights out...thoughts? :D

You have to aim the hands for sure, you don't have to use them....but if you don't use them you better aim them somewhere right?

 

 

Concentric circles. The spine moves what 3" on the BS, the sternum 9" the shoulders 18" and the clubhead 27'.

 

Quiet feet, quiet body/minimize lateral motion (...keep it circular, not eliptical [you knew that was coming :man_in_love: ]) good pivot, pivot controls the arms, hands only hold onto the club and everything else is automatic.

 

That was simple.......why won't my body listen.................getting even for years of abuse?

Be good to your body Frank....and it will be good to you. :D

 

What role does swing visualization play in your philosophy? I think setup focus is terrific (as opposed to a "to do" list of "how to" swing positions), but I also think it's vital to have an overall image to govern the dynamic motion.

 

From "See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside":

 

"The mind relates best to images, movements, results and feedback, not words. A mental image precedes every physical action that we perform. Without question, the most important keys in golf are concepts and visualizations of the swing that are stored in the mind's eye. The golf swing that your body will try to make is based on the concepts and visualizations in your mind's eye."

 

If you agree what concepts and visualizations do you recommend?

If you are after an automatic motion you have to aim it somewhere. It needs a trigger, a target and an awareness of the whole motion.

[JD3]

What role does swing visualization play in your philosophy? I think setup focus is terrific (as opposed to a "to do" list of "how to" swing positions), but I also think it's vital to have an overall image to govern the dynamic motion.

 

From "See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside":

 

"The mind relates best to images, movements, results and feedback, not words. A mental image precedes every physical action that we perform. Without question, the most important keys in golf are concepts and visualizations of the swing that are stored in the mind's eye. The golf swing that your body will try to make is based on the concepts and visualizations in your mind's eye."

 

If you agree what concepts and visualizations do you recommend?

If you are after an automatic motion you have to aim it somewhere. It needs a trigger, a target and an awareness of the whole motion.

And how would you describe yours?

[martinez]

What role does swing visualization play in your philosophy? I think setup focus is terrific (as opposed to a "to do" list of "how to" swing positions), but I also think it's vital to have an overall image to govern the dynamic motion.

 

From "See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside":

 

"The mind relates best to images, movements, results and feedback, not words. A mental image precedes every physical action that we perform. Without question, the most important keys in golf are concepts and visualizations of the swing that are stored in the mind's eye. The golf swing that your body will try to make is based on the concepts and visualizations in your mind's eye."

 

If you agree what concepts and visualizations do you recommend?

If you are after an automatic motion you have to aim it somewhere. It needs a trigger, a target and an awareness of the whole motion.

And how would you describe yours?

I'd describe my motion as a free flowing club that I counter with my body and aim with my hands.

 

 

It's certainly automatic motion from the initial move. As I said though, there is aiming going on in the motion...it isn't set and forget....yet. :D

[eightiron]

You could also say that using a correct hand path on the backswing will let the body find its limitations as well and players who choose a wrist condition towards the top end ( e.g fred couples ) will get a natural counterfall motion in transition to accomodate this movement...now how about that for automatic :diablo: :D

 

OK, let's look closer: if the hands control the pivot it is inevitable that the lead shoulder will be pulled because this is the first joint between arms and main body to respond (rear side not active) the hands. It will lead to scenario that the lead side will push the rear side - therefore, a compression instead expansion in the backswing. If there is no compression before change of orientation, the process of CoG shift onto the lead hip joint won't be finished before transition.

You are right that the transition then must be just a counterfall motion, thus, less dynamic (less float loading). Perhaps this is why Couples's linear shift happens during or even after transition and not before it making his downswing a combination of the linear and rotational elements. Look please at 1:03-05 sec. in this video:

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Well not absolute ..If the hand path is deep and in ..the right side will be expanded as the right hand ( through PP3 )pulls the torso around..so before giving hand controlled pivot ( does not mean pivot is doing nothing) a black mark ..it needs some consideration

[Dariusz J.]

What role does swing visualization play in your philosophy? I think setup focus is terrific (as opposed to a "to do" list of "how to" swing positions), but I also think it's vital to have an overall image to govern the dynamic motion.

 

From "See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside":

 

"The mind relates best to images, movements, results and feedback, not words. A mental image precedes every physical action that we perform. Without question, the most important keys in golf are concepts and visualizations of the swing that are stored in the mind's eye. The golf swing that your body will try to make is based on the concepts and visualizations in your mind's eye."

 

If you agree what concepts and visualizations do you recommend?

 

If you are after an automatic motion you have to aim it somewhere. It needs a trigger, a target and an awareness of the whole motion.

 

Excellent answer, Martinez. Mine would be exactly the same. Maybe I'd add the impact of the diagonal stance feet pressure points awareness that help to create a subconscious mind guidance through the motion. Certainly no swing thoughts when everything is done correctly at setup - just the target matters since the rest should be pure automatic (at least, this is the firm assumption, whether it is entirely possible or not).

 

Cheers

[martinez]

Cheers DJ

 

Well not absolute ..If the hand path is deep and in ..the right side will be expanded as the right hand ( through PP3 )pulls the torso around..so before giving hand controlled pivot ( does not mean pivot is doing nothing) a black mark ..it needs some consideration

Could hand controlled pivot be worded as hand guided pivot? I can kind of understand what your saying but having never focused on it I guess I'm struggling to fully grasp it. PP3 is the join of the right hand to the left thumb and club?

[Dariusz J.]

Well not absolute ..If the hand path is deep and in ..the right side will be expanded as the right hand ( through PP3 )pulls the torso around..so before giving hand controlled pivot ( does not mean pivot is doing nothing) a black mark ..it needs some consideration

 

Eight, I am far from giving a black mark to anything. If real players of your level consider the idea of a hands controlled pivot as valid (not mentioning that Mr.Kelley and the TGM/MORAD guys also do - and although I am not always in accordance with TGM it does not mean that I don't respect it) - it is valid, period. I am aware that hands can perform a lot of actions including the most precise ones without involving the main body - like I am sitting here and writing this post using my hands and fingers on my keyboard.

However, it simply does not match the theory of introducing total automatism into the motion involving the whole human body due to pure physics, IMO. I guess that the distal parts of the body should not control the main body, but viceversa. Feets are exceptions because they are the only one link between a golfer and the ground, because there is gravity in our world, because there are shear forces and torsion. But hands are free riders without any solid base - the only link is the shoulder joints that are too weak to control them.

Practically, the only one way of treating the hands controlled pivot as the superior is an invisible link between our subconscious mind and our hands/fingers. If this link is stronger (i.e. giving better results) than pure mechanics - even my best arguments will fail. But there is no evidence until now about it since human knowledge about subconsciousness is almost equal to zero, even in the 21st century.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

PP3 is the join of the right hand to the left thumb and club?

 

PP3 is the trigger finger of the rear hand.

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

Dariusz can you see how the hands can be used to expand the right side with the correct hand path?

[ej002]

What role does swing visualization play in your philosophy? I think setup focus is terrific (as opposed to a "to do" list of "how to" swing positions), but I also think it's vital to have an overall image to govern the dynamic motion.

 

From "See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside":

 

"The mind relates best to images, movements, results and feedback, not words. A mental image precedes every physical action that we perform. Without question, the most important keys in golf are concepts and visualizations of the swing that are stored in the mind's eye. The golf swing that your body will try to make is based on the concepts and visualizations in your mind's eye."

 

If you agree what concepts and visualizations do you recommend?

If you are after an automatic motion you have to aim it somewhere. It needs a trigger, a target and an awareness of the whole motion.

And how would you describe yours?

I'd describe my motion as a free flowing club that I counter with my body and aim with my hands.

 

 

It's certainly automatic motion from the initial move. As I said though, there is aiming going on in the motion...it isn't set and forget....yet. :D

 

 

Beautiful swings Martinez, can I carry your bag when you are tearing up the Tour?

 

May I ask how you got there? Bow to crossbow?

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz can you see how the hands can be used to expand the right side with the correct hand path?

 

I guess yes - the trigger finger guides the grip path around activating the inside muscles of the right hand and the rear shoulder joint and then the very core through the right side of the body; the rear elbow subdues to it and folds automatically - sort of anti-lawnmower, I'd say.

Correct me if I am wrong, it's only my uneducated guess. :)

 

Cheers