The Big Picture of Biokinetics in a golf swing motion

[KevCarter]

Kevin, not at all, mate. It's great that so knowledgeable a teacher as you is here in the thread.

As I said many times - I like TGM a lot and respect Mr.Kelley's work highly. Some concepts are just brilliant and there is no need to look for better explanations. I can see some weak points in it as well, therefore, I just cannot treat it as a Bible of golf. That's all :)

 

As regards VJ Trolio and other Hogan's Secret hunters. The thread here is to find as most automatic swing motion as possible. For average golfers. If playing pros or scratch and better amateurs can benefit a bit of it - this would nobilitate the whole thread. In fact, the names of a few visitors here in it have just already nobilitated it. Having said that, this threwad is not "another Mr.Hogan's Secret" thread. Sure, post-secret Hogan is still the main model that I observe creating concepts for the thread...but not the only one. Moreover, some small concepts here are a bit different than can be observed in Mr.Hogan's swing - I try to be objective and write what I can see, and believe it is true on the base of all the info I gather - as Aristotheles would say "I love Plathon, but I love the truth more". ;)

 

Cheers

 

Dariusz J.

 

Thank you for the reply. I don't care about the swing thoughts being players secrets either, I'm just interested in how these motions may help us and our students. There are a lot of ways to skin that cat, but I am really anxious to hear your new automation ideas. GREAT work!

 

Kevin

[honketyhank]

Mr. Dariusz -- this is truly thought provoking and many thanks for your efforts in sharing your insight and analysis with us. As a new member here, I can say that it is truly daunting to plow into a thread with a zillion replies. But there is a good reason why one thread attracts that much attention. I need to spend a lot more time reading this in detail instead of skimming it as I did this morning.

 

Question: regarding biokinetically natural grip and putting. I tried it out this morning (inside the house) and it is definitely worth trying out further, which I will do. But has this method of gripping (grasping) the putter caused you to change the grip (handle) of your putter? Most putters these days come with a flat side on top, which if used as a place to put the thumbs, wrecks the 'naturalness' of the biokenitic grip (grasp). One can certainly go ahead and consiously place the thumbs around and past the flat side, but then this feels funny too. Would you recommend using a round grip (handle) intended for use on irons and woods? Maybe something like a Winn which seems bigger and softer in my hands than, say, the Lamkin crossline full cords I normally use. Or maybe, using the same grip (grasp) goes right along with using the same grip (handle).

 

Sorry for any confusion caused by the word "grip" used in two different senses.

 

[if I can get past the confusion, maybe I can come to grips with the problem. Sorry, couldn't resist that.]

[Jeff Evans]

I like where this thread is going. Much thought has gone into this writings. Thanks for your contribution! We all want AUTOMATIC!

[Dariusz J.]

Mr. Dariusz -- this is truly thought provoking and many thanks for your efforts in sharing your insight and analysis with us. As a new member here, I can say that it is truly daunting to plow into a thread with a zillion replies. But there is a good reason why one thread attracts that much attention. I need to spend a lot more time reading this in detail instead of skimming it as I did this morning.

 

Question: regarding biokinetically natural grip and putting. I tried it out this morning (inside the house) and it is definitely worth trying out further, which I will do. But has this method of gripping (grasping) the putter caused you to change the grip (handle) of your putter? Most putters these days come with a flat side on top, which if used as a place to put the thumbs, wrecks the 'naturalness' of the biokenitic grip (grasp). One can certainly go ahead and consiously place the thumbs around and past the flat side, but then this feels funny too. Would you recommend using a round grip (handle) intended for use on irons and woods? Maybe something like a Winn which seems bigger and softer in my hands than, say, the Lamkin crossline full cords I normally use. Or maybe, using the same grip (grasp) goes right along with using the same grip (handle).

 

Sorry for any confusion caused by the word "grip" used in two different senses.

 

[if I can get past the confusion, maybe I can come to grips with the problem. Sorry, couldn't resist that.]

 

Thank you very much, Mr.Honketyhank :)

 

As regards your question about the Bio-K grip on a putter - square putter grips with edges are great since you can put both thumbs the way they can feel them greatly by their tips - LH thumb on the right edge, RH thumb on the left edge. This would require bit more distal thumbs in the grip but the main principles of the Bio-K grip and its relation to neutral clavicles are being maintained.

Among my putters, I have a Dandy one with its special wide grip specially designed to keep both thumbs parallel to the shaft close to each other - I can use the Bio-K grip on this putter, too.

One more remark - I keep the putter relatively low, close to the bottom end of the grip, where its width is smaller.

 

I have promised in my PMs that I put some pics of the Bio-K grip on a putter - will try to do it a.s.a.p.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

I like where this thread is going. Much thought has gone into this writings. Thanks for your contribution! We all want AUTOMATIC!

 

 

:) another top class instructor here, great ! Honestly, I cannot even predict how automatic the motion can be and how far this thread will lead us...thanks for dropping by, Jeff, and welcome to share with your thoughts here !

 

Cheers

[Jeff Evans]

I like where this thread is going. Much thought has gone into this writings. Thanks for your contribution! We all want AUTOMATIC!

 

 

:) another top class instructor here, great ! Honestly, I cannot even predict how automatic the motion can be and how far this thread will lead us...thanks for dropping by, Jeff, and welcome to share with your thoughts here !

 

Cheers

 

Thanks! I would like to share my thoughts about Automatic and Non-Automatic Motions. This Thread will go far knowledge and understanding is a must!

[Dariusz J.]

OK, having examined a lot of net sources as well as discussed the subject, I'd like to throw a trial explanation of the spine rotation influences and helps in automating the transition. The evolution shaped human spine in curves:

 

 

 

As it can be seen, the major part of the spine (thoracic part) is flexed while the two distal smaller parts (cervical and lumbar-sacral) are extended. Ironically, the thoracic part, that is braced with ribs for the most part is the part that rotates much more than the other ones. Why ? During the backswing, the cervical part rotation is being limited by the head movement that is limited by the eye sight range; the lumbar-sacral part rotation is limited by the very pelvis as well as by rear leg preset action at the setup.

The bigger amount of rotation of the middle part causes both distal parts to react accordingly when the small X-factors are being achieved. They both extend more than in a stationary mode in relation to the mid part; in fact, we can also state that the thoracic part flexes a bit more as well while turning back in relation to the other two sections.

This causes both the cervical as well as lumbar part of the spine go up and back (precisely in this order since the rotation of the shoulder area, i.e. upper part of the thoracic section is the biggest); when the backswing is complated correctly, a slight but noticeable shift towards South-West of the top of the spine can be observed; same happens a fraction later with the lumbar part that golf instructors often call informally as tailbone. South-West direction is exactly the direction of the perfect transition move that leads to a correct hip movement at the downswing in the rotary swing.

As a side note - the lower is the plane the easier is to find the limitation of the main body during backswing - high two plane golfers seldom find the maximum amount of the small X-factor of the shoulder girdle just because of the arms working on a higher plane.

 

What is missing here is the automatic work of the legs that reinforces the correct transition and helps in automating the swing even more. This was, indeed, what I wanted to start with my latest researches, but somehow the spine motion concepts has been raised recently. Thus, maybe it is better to finish this section first.

 

Cheers

[ezra76]

I'm wondering about this left eye dominant stuff. Should I be doing something different as a left eye dominant righty? Who are some pros who are the same?

[xiaoxiong]

I'm wondering about this left eye dominant stuff. Should I be doing something different as a left eye dominant righty? Who are some pros who are the same?

 

 

Ben Hogan :rolleyes:

[fats]

Jack Nicklaus

[magnum184]

Dariusz,

 

This is some very interesting work, old friend.

 

You know, the "X Factor" had me screwed up for a long time. I don't know if screwed up is the correct way to put it, but the technique is not what I'm doing now in any event. Used to be, I would purposefully try to hold my hips back as much as possible. I could coil with the best of them. But, the more I think about it now, the more I realize how it was taking my legs out of the swing and holding me back from developing a dynamic transition. Now, I am allowing the hands to pull my arms, arms to pull my shoulders, shoulders to pull my core, and core to pull my hips. By allowing my hip turn to become deeper, well the whole backswing really, I am allowing the hips to find their natural limitation, a limitation which I have purposefully devised by the setup. Viola, I started to shift back to the left while still coiling up to the top.

 

At one moment, their is an incredible little extra stretch betweem the left shoulder area/lats during this transition. I feel like I have an action at that point of pulling or unwinding a bit with the side of the left hip area (maybe you should give me a technical term for that Doc LOL). But, it is in this moment where that little stretch is felt. I believe that whatever is going on here is the reason for the free ride my arms and upper body are given.

 

I would also like to note that I experience something in the right shoulder area during this transition phase. If I desrcibed it as a compression, or can I go ahead a call it adduction, would that be right? It feels like it pulls into the spine. Very weak feeling almost or perhaps just not tensed. So, I suppose the left side, at this point, might have my tension? And I would also state that my right side will not have started to abduct (?) again until maybe just before impact? But, I can say with great certainty that after impact and once the club has been fully released with all the extension I can muster, I can clearly see on film a complete stretched and expanded right side. In fact, it's one of the things I like to look at on film of my release back to the inside.................to see the full outline of my torso on the right side, all the way up to the shoulder. When I am releasing everything back to the inside, I get that look. Maybe look at Ben Hogan's right side here...

 

 

 

 

In any event, all of this must begin with leg work, huh? And ultimately, it could be boiled down to the pivot, right? I would also like to note that I notice my pivot to work the best when the legs are constantly working from both side for a long time. Sorry for the vagueness.

 

Could you describe, in your wonderful dialect, what I might be experiencing and if there is automation occuring?

[fats]

Mag,

 

I get exactly the same result as the pic ... when the left hip raises (I realize it doesn't raise much) during the hip rotation it creates a rightside tilt...seen in pic...that same uplift of the left hip while turning brings the left leg with it and you get what you see in the pic.

One thing causes another and another...blah blah blah

 

Also notice the RELAXED right leg.

 

To hit it extremely high just leave the left arm behind and don't worry about when it gets there and rotate the hips...

[magnum184]

Mag,

 

I get exactly the same result as the pic ... when the left hip raises (I realize it doesn't raise much) during the hip rotation it creates a rightside tilt...seen in pic...that same uplift of the left hip while turning brings the left leg with it and you get what you see in the pic.

One thing causes another and another...blah blah blah

 

Also notice the RELAXED right leg.

 

To hit it extremely high just leave the left arm behind and don't worry about when it gets there and rotate the hips...

 

Hmm. Thanks Fats.

 

I've been struggling a bit to hit the top windows lately and still get the penetration and knuckly stuff on the ball. I'll tinker with what you said.

[fats]

I used to setup behind the ball...centers moved right etc etc. to hit it high..too complicated the an un-named person told me to not worry when the clubhead gets to the ball...it will get there...LOL

 

Only caveat is I went to it too much...it became my regular move as I was a med. traj. player and loved greg norman high...then I started to suffer from l. hand breakdown...so now I use it on those times where high is really needed.

 

you remember those TW commercials with the windows...lol...maybe one of the best learning commercials yet...he put 3 different left arm positions for 3 different heights...masterful work,,,he was with Butch then.

[magnum184]

I used to setup behind the ball...centers moved right etc etc. to hit it high..too complicated the an un-named person told me to not worry when the clubhead gets to the ball...it will get there...LOL

 

Only caveat is I went to it too much...it became my regular move as I was a med. traj. player and loved greg norman high...then I started to suffer from l. hand breakdown...so now I use it on those times where high is really needed.

 

you remember those TW commercials with the windows...lol...maybe one of the best learning commercials yet...he put 3 different left arm positions for 3 different heights...masterful work,,,he was with Butch then.

 

 

Yeah, I had that commercial on film and just about burnt the VHS tape up analyzing it. What a dork, huh?

 

I do remember noticing the left arm changes, now that you mentioned it. Just never put it together. I was lacking a little craft back then. LOL. :lol:

 

You know, thinking about that tape brought something to my attention. I'm not going to lie, I extensively studied Tiger's action for years, through all the changes. Learned a lot too. Also, incorporated a lot of it into my swing. But, in the end, even though I learned a lot, I learned what I didn't want to do. I learned why it wouldn't work as well (not saying it can't for all you Tiger fans LOL). And it all led me straight to the pivot. But, I wouldn't change a thing. I like the direction my ballstriking is headed. And I like what I learned from studying those swings.

[KevCarter]

To hit it extremely high just leave the left arm behind and don't worry about when it gets there and rotate the hips...

 

Hi fats,

 

I don't get that. Do you think that is just a feeling for creating something else? Perhaps feeling as though your left arm stays back adds tilt or stalls the shoulder turn?

 

Sorry to be so dense, but I think this may be an important "feel" and would like to find out more about it.

 

Thanks,

Kevin

[fats]

It's an advanced players move, for those who already can play and hit the ball...you sound advanced...Easier for you to handle might be same as your normal swing but late with the arms? I'm not one to offer step by step HOW TO instructions...so just try it...if it doesn't please you eliminate it from your mind.

 

My normal ball flight is just above medium traj...but with what I said I can hit it Tiger Woods high...I rip at it also.

 

What I do, maybe because I'm an artistic type rather than a technical type is condense to simplify...explaining what I do with my modified S&T to you on another topic really goes to my technical limits...LOL...so you can easily tell I'll never ever read any long boring posts about which bone move what bone and on and on...From the great teachers and players I've met over the years I borrow a piece of their overall theory which perks my interest and I can easily apply...however, I don't give ANYTHING more than four or five swings to either accept or reject...Now that's from a players point of view, from a serious student of the game or a teacher my advice sounds and likely is full of gaps...In your case as well as others you should fill the gaps on your own and either accept or reject. Nothing is universal IMOP.

[KevCarter]

It's an advanced players move, for those who already can play and hit the ball...you sound advanced...Easier for you to handle might be same as your normal swing but late with the arms? I'm not one to offer step by step HOW TO instructions...so just try it...if it doesn't please you eliminate it from your mind.

 

My normal ball flight is just above medium traj...but with what I said I can hit it Tiger Woods high...I rip at it also.

 

Fats,

 

I used to be advanced, now I'm just old, fat, out of shape, and living in the past. :lol: I'll remember your swing thought and give it a whirl when the snow melts. Perhaps the old light bulb will go on and I'll feel it...

 

Thanks,

Kevin

[fats]

We in the same boat...look above post...just got off the treadmill...now I have to stay away from sweets...I really laid the pounds on this Holiday season.

[Dariusz J.]

I'm wondering about this left eye dominant stuff. Should I be doing something different as a left eye dominant righty? Who are some pros who are the same?

 

You should be happy with your cross-eye dominance, mate. Just turn your head freely on the backswing (you can preset your head at address as well) and keep the dominant eye before the ball at impact, as in a "classic" golf instruction :)

It is a rear eye dominant golfer who should worry more about such things like ball position, a bit shorter backswing, levelness of eyes, etc. Golf for cross-eyed golfers, such as yourself, feels much more natural.

 

For you - and for all lead eye dominant golfers, and for them ONLY - Mr. Sam Snead (who was another great example of a lead eye dominant golfer) shows what is the correct head preset and movement during backswing:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxyfnYVkNws

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz,

 

This is some very interesting work, old friend.

 

You know, the "X Factor" had me screwed up for a long time. I don't know if screwed up is the correct way to put it, but the technique is not what I'm doing now in any event. Used to be, I would purposefully try to hold my hips back as much as possible. I could coil with the best of them. But, the more I think about it now, the more I realize how it was taking my legs out of the swing and holding me back from developing a dynamic transition. Now, I am allowing the hands to pull my arms, arms to pull my shoulders, shoulders to pull my core, and core to pull my hips. By allowing my hip turn to become deeper, well the whole backswing really, I am allowing the hips to find their natural limitation, a limitation which I have purposefully devised by the setup. Viola, I started to shift back to the left while still coiling up to the top.

 

At one moment, their is an incredible little extra stretch betweem the left shoulder area/lats during this transition. I feel like I have an action at that point of pulling or unwinding a bit with the side of the left hip area (maybe you should give me a technical term for that Doc LOL). But, it is in this moment where that little stretch is felt. I believe that whatever is going on here is the reason for the free ride my arms and upper body are given.

 

I would also like to note that I experience something in the right shoulder area during this transition phase. If I desrcibed it as a compression, or can I go ahead a call it adduction, would that be right? It feels like it pulls into the spine. Very weak feeling almost or perhaps just not tensed. So, I suppose the left side, at this point, might have my tension? And I would also state that my right side will not have started to abduct (?) again until maybe just before impact? But, I can say with great certainty that after impact and once the club has been fully released with all the extension I can muster, I can clearly see on film a complete stretched and expanded right side. In fact, it's one of the things I like to look at on film of my release back to the inside.................to see the full outline of my torso on the right side, all the way up to the shoulder. When I am releasing everything back to the inside, I get that look. Maybe look at Ben Hogan's right side here...

 

 

 

 

In any event, all of this must begin with leg work, huh? And ultimately, it could be boiled down to the pivot, right? I would also like to note that I notice my pivot to work the best when the legs are constantly working from both side for a long time. Sorry for the vagueness.

 

Could you describe, in your wonderful dialect, what I might be experiencing and if there is automation occuring?

 

 

Magnum, you have an incredible gift to describe what you feel comparing to the reality. When I am ready (maybe someday...LOL) with short guide for golfers how to automate the swing in few short points (without this techno-medical lingo) I'll ask you to write it in English for me :)

 

Yes, what you said is very true. As it was said in the Main Body section, Mr. McLean's X-Factor theory is not complete and, thus, a bit misleading. The sum of small X-factors theory makes the whole thing much biomechanically sounder. Indeed, you should not seek for limitation in your rear hip joint - it will be found automatically due to the correct set up and rear knee joint preset. What matters, is IMHO a correct full backswing with the rear shoulder "compressing" the spine area. A wonderful example of the SPC, if I may say this way. It enables even to benefit from the spine curves.

After the "compression" the right side must be totally relaxed because its job has already been done, as you showed it on this pic and Fats described in his posts.

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

Dariusz,

 

This is some very interesting work, old friend.

 

You know, the "X Factor" had me screwed up for a long time. I don't know if screwed up is the correct way to put it, but the technique is not what I'm doing now in any event. Used to be, I would purposefully try to hold my hips back as much as possible. I could coil with the best of them. But, the more I think about it now, the more I realize how it was taking my legs out of the swing and holding me back from developing a dynamic transition. Now, I am allowing the hands to pull my arms, arms to pull my shoulders, shoulders to pull my core, and core to pull my hips. By allowing my hip turn to become deeper, well the whole backswing really, I am allowing the hips to find their natural limitation, a limitation which I have purposefully devised by the setup. Viola, I started to shift back to the left while still coiling up to the top.

 

At one moment, their is an incredible little extra stretch betweem the left shoulder area/lats during this transition. I feel like I have an action at that point of pulling or unwinding a bit with the side of the left hip area (maybe you should give me a technical term for that Doc LOL). But, it is in this moment where that little stretch is felt. I believe that whatever is going on here is the reason for the free ride my arms and upper body are given.

 

I would also like to note that I experience something in the right shoulder area during this transition phase. If I desrcibed it as a compression, or can I go ahead a call it adduction, would that be right? It feels like it pulls into the spine. Very weak feeling almost or perhaps just not tensed. So, I suppose the left side, at this point, might have my tension? And I would also state that my right side will not have started to abduct (?) again until maybe just before impact? But, I can say with great certainty that after impact and once the club has been fully released with all the extension I can muster, I can clearly see on film a complete stretched and expanded right side. In fact, it's one of the things I like to look at on film of my release back to the inside.................to see the full outline of my torso on the right side, all the way up to the shoulder. When I am releasing everything back to the inside, I get that look. Maybe look at Ben Hogan's right side here...

 

 

 

 

In any event, all of this must begin with leg work, huh? And ultimately, it could be boiled down to the pivot, right? I would also like to note that I notice my pivot to work the best when the legs are constantly working from both side for a long time. Sorry for the vagueness.

 

Could you describe, in your wonderful dialect, what I might be experiencing and if there is automation occuring?

 

 

Magnum, you have an incredible gift to describe what you feel comparing to the reality. When I am ready (maybe someday...LOL) with short guide for golfers how to automate the swing in few short points (without this techno-medical lingo) I'll ask you to write it in English for me :)

 

Yes, what you said is very true. As it was said in the Main Body section, Mr. McLean's X-Factor theory is not complete and, thus, a bit misleading. The sum of small X-factors theory makes the whole thing much biomechanically sounder. Indeed, you should not seek for limitation in your rear hip joint - it will be found automatically due to the correct set up and rear knee joint preset. What matters, is IMHO a correct full backswing with the rear shoulder "compressing" the spine area. A wonderful example of the SPC, if I may say this way. It enables even to benefit from the spine curves.

After the "compression" the right side must be totally relaxed because its job has already been done, as you showed it on this pic and Fats described in his posts.

 

Cheers

 

 

Well, maybe I'm a feel guy after all, in the end maybe. Even though I am obsessed with technicalities and a thorough understanding. Maybe it's some kind of combination. Sometimes I just want to shut my brain off. Just can't. :lol:

 

Keep up the good work, Dariusz. I've been reading your ideas for a long time, going all the way back to Chuck Quinton's site. :lol:

[Swoosh-Thud]

Magnum. The way I read it, your just squeezing the levers (arms) engaging them to the axle (core) and just rotating.

 

Dariusz. I agree with everything, but my concern about separating RT from LT is just that: separating RT from LT.

 

While ab/adduction are terms reqarding motion away/towards a point/plane, when both occur simultaneously, that is rotation. The basic core of the biomechanical/rotational swing is just that: rotation. With a proper pivot one turns into the right side (a revolving door) whereas a poor pivot when one turns over the right side (a swing door). The latter implies unidirectional movement, the former coordinated movement. In the through swing, too much RT side: blocks/pulls etc. Yes? No?

 

As far as Fats' leave the left behind, I feel that as a RT hand dominated open faced high "push:" either a fade or draw depending on heel-toe closure at impact.

[Swoosh-Thud]

More food for thought:

 

The spine is the center of rotation. The pivot point is the base of the spine: the sacrumn & coccyx, which are fixed to the pelvis. The spine does not compress it can flex/extend in the sagital plane (and of course rotate about the axial plane). If you "compress" your spine, you are actually altering your spine angle. Rather than compress, use the pelvis to tilt the spine and thus maintain spne angle.

 

the tilt occurs in both the axial plane and the coronal plane. As Fats alluded to with a reveres K: high left hip, rearward spine tilt. level hips need compression to get a tilt. BS left hip dips, left shoulder dips, throughswing left hip returns to address position, shoulders follow.

 

That's all for now: I'm driving.

[magnum184]

Magnum. The way I read it, your just squeezing the levers (arms) engaging them to the axle (core) and just rotating.

 

Dariusz. I agree with everything, but my concern about separating RT from LT is just that: separating RT from LT.

 

While ab/adduction are terms reqarding motion away/towards a point/plane, when both occur simultaneously, that is rotation. The basic core of the biomechanical/rotational swing is just that: rotation. With a proper pivot one turns into the right side (a revolving door) whereas a poor pivot when one turns over the right side (a swing door). The latter implies unidirectional movement, the former coordinated movement. In the through swing, too much RT side: blocks/pulls etc. Yes? No?

 

As far as Fats' leave the left behind, I feel that as a RT hand dominated open faced high "push:" either a fade or draw depending on heel-toe closure at impact.

 

When I am functioning at my best, I get the feeling that I am vacuum sucked into my spine throughout the swing, for certain parts. Did that make sense? The image of the pirouette comes to mind, or maybe an ice skater doing pirouettes and gaining all that speed. Don't know if that amounts to a hill of beans or not. But, there might be some similarities, huh? It is rotation, isn't it Frank? Might be very efficient rotation. BTW, didn't you once give an analogy for this tightness and rotation within the framework of a car/axle/tire one time???????? We could just simply call all this rotation, but you know how I like to complicate things.

 

About that right side being compressed, Dariusz earlier, maybe even in another thread, wrote about getting to delivery with this intact, right forearm leading and all that good stuff. But, what I chuckled at was when he wrote (and I'm paraphrasing) "and at this point, MAY GOD GIVE YOU THREE RIGHT HANDS". I started LMAO when I read that, because I really feel exactly like that. When I frist started to use my pivot and rotation as the dominant action, allowing the arms to come for the ride, I felt scared to death that I couldn't generate ANYTHING through the ball while being in such a ................. momentary passive position (that compressed right side). Truth was, I was just saving and gearing up. All of a sudden, three right hands sounds like a dream. Hell, I would take about 20 !!!! But, there's plenty of juice in that position. It's just like the story Frank tells about when Slice slaps the snot out of his hand by PURE ROTATION. It's there and you'll be LEVERAGED.

 

Anyway, I'm diggin' all this stuff. Getting butterflies because I might be getting a CLUE finally.

[bovi]

Dariuz, thanks for the pics and explainations few pages back.

 

regarding point 4, could you please elaborate more on when the following happen? esp about the lead wrist losing the cup. when do you reckon the wrist become flat and how does that happen automatically (if so)

 

next, the pre-setting of the right elbow. do you mean this position (lower forearm rotated anticlock-wise with elbow pocket clock-wise - 5 lessons-) is done at address because we want the exact same thing at the top?

 

lastly, its obvious you are a fan of 5 lessons and you use it to support alot of your views - like the rear elbow pocket. what is your take on the leading arm elbow pocket at address? you didn't mention it in those series of photos. your pic shows the elbow facing the target - unlike 5 lessons. but a strong grip does not make my lead elbow pocket do that - it continues to face out / skywards. you preset torque it too?

 

thanks :)

 

4. Downswing: everything reacts back in the same order; the lead wrist loses its cup, the forearm rotates back (supinates) and the grip power package releases gradually (lead wrist uncocks and rear wrist unhinges gradually);

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz. I agree with everything, but my concern about separating RT from LT is just that: separating RT from LT.

 

While ab/adduction are terms reqarding motion away/towards a point/plane, when both occur simultaneously, that is rotation. The basic core of the biomechanical/rotational swing is just that: rotation. With a proper pivot one turns into the right side (a revolving door) whereas a poor pivot when one turns over the right side (a swing door). The latter implies unidirectional movement, the former coordinated movement. In the through swing, too much RT side: blocks/pulls etc. Yes? No?

 

 

More food for thought:

 

The spine is the center of rotation. The pivot point is the base of the spine: the sacrumn & coccyx, which are fixed to the pelvis. The spine does not compress it can flex/extend in the sagital plane (and of course rotate about the axial plane). If you "compress" your spine, you are actually altering your spine angle. Rather than compress, use the pelvis to tilt the spine and thus maintain spne angle.

 

the tilt occurs in both the axial plane and the coronal plane. As Fats alluded to with a reveres K: high left hip, rearward spine tilt. level hips need compression to get a tilt. BS left hip dips, left shoulder dips, throughswing left hip returns to address position, shoulders follow.

 

That's all for now: I'm driving.

 

Great thoughts, Frank. They would demand a very wide and deep comments, but IMHO, let's wait with this discussion for explaining the SPC concept of the lower body, especially pelvis area guided via legs motion. In fact, I tend to agree to you that it will be not enough to stay with the explanations with the sagittal plane only (had this objections already before).

Just to clarify my standpoint - of course, adduction+abduction=rotation and this is the main power core of the swing. When I used the word "compression" it just referred to a scenario when the adductions and abductions of different parts of the human body start to occur in a slightly different time. Say, this example: if the backswing is lead via the rear side abduction (correct one) and the rear side meets its limitations it starts the downswing automatically while the passive lead side reacts to this a fraction later - this is where the "compression" (SPC) happen. Opposite to a lead side adduction (incorrect) that would rather cause a "separation" during transition, and maybe an unnecessary break on the top that takes power out of the motion.

I tend to think that all swings that are fluid and the border between backswing and downswing is invisible (read: similar to all great rotary golfers with Mr.Hogan on top) must "compress" the sagittal plane starting from the ground up. This is why finding natural limitations is such an important thing, IMO, when searching for automatism in all human motions, including our golf swing here.

I also tend to think that the lead side pulling motion that is the key for a rotary downswing is being initialized by the SPC that happens mainly thanks to the rear side action in the backswing phase. See a catapult throughout the whole sagittal plane (imagine a ribbon) that is twisted and untwists sequentially and automatically from the ground up. It's like the rear side passes the relay race stick to the lead side... :)

 

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

This just keeps getting better and better.

[Dariusz J.]

About that right side being compressed, Dariusz earlier, maybe even in another thread, wrote about getting to delivery with this intact, right forearm leading and all that good stuff. But, what I chuckled at was when he wrote (and I'm paraphrasing) "and at this point, MAY GOD GIVE YOU THREE RIGHT HANDS". I started LMAO when I read that, because I really feel exactly like that. When I frist started to use my pivot and rotation as the dominant action, allowing the arms to come for the ride, I felt scared to death that I couldn't generate ANYTHING through the ball while being in such a ................. momentary passive position (that compressed right side). Truth was, I was just saving and gearing up. All of a sudden, three right hands sounds like a dream. Hell, I would take about 20 !!!! But, there's plenty of juice in that position. It's just like the story Frank tells about when Slice slaps the snot out of his hand by PURE ROTATION. It's there and you'll be LEVERAGED.

 

Anyway, I'm diggin' all this stuff. Getting butterflies because I might be getting a CLUE finally.

 

Magnum, the most difficult area to "compress" is the pelvis. It is a block of bones, not a elastic "snake" of bones as the spine is. This is the key for everything that happens in an automatic rotary motion, IMHO. The crucial is to use the SPC concept that will explain why both joints work the way they should (remember the eccentric wheel analogy ?)...

Three right hands may be a concept available for everyone, not just empty words from Mr.Hogan's book. :)

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Bovi, I'll try to answer your questions as follows in bold letters:

 

Dariuz, thanks for the pics and explainations few pages back.

 

regarding point 4, could you please elaborate more on when the following happen? esp about the lead wrist losing the cup. when do you reckon the wrist become flat and how does that happen automatically (if so)

 

Yes, it happens automatically, since the cup in the lead wrist at the top of the backswing is a natural consequence to finding limitation in the lead forearm clockwise rotation. It is not an intentional action. Therefore, during the downswing phase, when the forearm is being rotated counterclockwise due to physical forces as e.g. inertia and gravity, the cup has to be released per se.

Since the living tissues (ligaments, flexors, joints and even bones to a degree) are elastic, the action provokes a reaction, even with a slight overreaction (imagine rubber) to the opposite direction. Therefore, the wrist uncups automatically just when the pivot pulls the arms back. Do not try to uncup it intentionally (since you would introduce an unnecessary timing issue), it will just happen.

 

 

next, the pre-setting of the right elbow. do you mean this position (lower forearm rotated anticlock-wise with elbow pocket clock-wise - 5 lessons-) is done at address because we want the exact same thing at the top?

 

Yes, but moreover, it creates a great neutral base for the main backswing action of the lead arm, i.e. rotation till its limits. What the rear arm has to do is to fold in the joint correctly keeping the clubhead on the plane since the very beginning.

 

 

lastly, its obvious you are a fan of 5 lessons and you use it to support alot of your views - like the rear elbow pocket. what is your take on the leading arm elbow pocket at address? you didn't mention it in those series of photos. your pic shows the elbow facing the target - unlike 5 lessons. but a strong grip does not make my lead elbow pocket do that - it continues to face out / skywards. you preset torque it too?

 

Well, it is a good question. Personally, I focus only at presetting the rear elbow joint since it influences a lot (alongside with the proper RH grip) the natural correct backswing plane. I have not found that presetting of the lead elbow helps or disturbs the backswing, therefore, I did not pay special attention to it when researching the subject.

It is important to have the lead elbow pocket up after impact, though - but it is rather a function of a correct lead hand grip and the very pivot and its interaction with the lead humerus (TGM's #4 pp); please also note that the Bio-K grip has a stronger lead hand position than Hogan recommended in the book...although I saw a lot of Hogan's pics where his LH was in a visibly stronger position than shown in '5 Lessons'.Of course, I am a big fan of '5 Lessons'. It is the mother of all modern great instruction books.

 

 

thanks :)

 

You're very welcome :)

 

Cheers