The Big Picture of Biokinetics in a golf swing motion

[magnum184]

Magnum,

I've never driven the ball as far and straight as I am now, and it immediately became better once I dropped my right foot back. I think Hogans' stance variations is perhaps his most impressive discovery. I think he did that for the exact reasons you stated. I've heard that put forward as the reasons many times before so not sure why you don't put much stock in it.

 

 

I didn't exactly mean it like that. What I meant was, regardless if he did it for the reasons I stated or not, I am perfectly content what it has been doing for me. :lol:

 

At the same time, I understand what Dariusz is saying too.

 

Maybe it was his logic, maybe it wasn't. In the end, when people read this, I just don't like the idea of people wanting to try it or experiment with it ONLY because that man did it. Do it because it works.

 

Tell you one thing, I use to spend hours in front of a mirror working on plane. Now, I spend those hours working on setup over and over and over. Who would've thought it? LOL. :lol:

[Dariusz J.]

Tell you one thing, I use to spend hours in front of a mirror working on plane. Now, I spend those hours working on setup over and over and over. Who would've thought it? LOL. :lol:

 

Well, the setup is the only right time for making all necessary preparations to automate the motion. You have time to do it - look how many things happen when Hogan stands in front of the ball, how many feet motions, joints presets, arms motions, waggles, etc. The rest is just pure automatism in the best quality.

 

There is no time to think about literally anything during the swing. All necessary things aimed at achieving automatism in the motion must be done before the takeaway starts. If you have done all things correctly you will not ever be off plane in the motion...but you already know it, my friend :)

 

Cheers

[JackieTreehorn]

Returning to the left elbow preset...your theories indicate that it is not important to preset the left (lead) elbow to your hip. My thought is that presetting the L elbow to your hip limits arm swing (and keeps your arms in front of you), so it would be preferred for a classical swinger or a Hardy 2 planer. Letting the arms hang freely seems to promote more range of arm swing which may be better for a Hardy 1 planer. I am not sure how the Hogan swing fits in, and there may be a debate here, but my impression is that he swings like a flat Hardy 2 planer with a low-left release (this is different to a Hardy 1 planer because of the way the arms work---stay more in front rather than swinging). So he would want that preset L elbow. I may be wrong though and would like to hear your thoughts.

 

To see this L elbow action, try swinging your left arm 1) as it hangs freely and 2) with your left elbow rotated counterclockwise so that it points to the L hip (or behind you). In the second case the arm swing is "limited" much sooner.

[Dariusz J.]

Returning to the left elbow preset...your theories indicate that it is not important to preset the left (lead) elbow to your hip. My thought is that presetting the L elbow to your hip limits arm swing (and keeps your arms in front of you), so it would be preferred for a classical swinger or a Hardy 2 planer. Letting the arms hang freely seems to promote more range of arm swing which may be better for a Hardy 1 planer. I am not sure how the Hogan swing fits in, and there may be a debate here, but my impression is that he swings like a flat Hardy 2 planer with a low-left release (this is different to a Hardy 1 planer because of the way the arms work---stay more in front rather than swinging). So he would want that preset L elbow. I may be wrong though and would like to hear your thoughts.

 

To see this L elbow action, try swinging your left arm 1) as it hangs freely and 2) with your left elbow rotated counterclockwise so that it points to the L hip (or behind you). In the second case the arm swing is "limited" much sooner.

 

Well, it's an interesting concept surely worth further researches. Thanks for pointing it out, Jackie.

 

The reasons I am of the opinion so far that the lead elbow joint preset does not influence anything important are that: a) no matter how you preset it the lead forearm turn must find its limitation at the top, b) it is rear side that pulls backswing while the lead one is passive and, finally, c) that there is no special room for doing this with mid-body hands position at address - the lead elbow is sort of preset already because of a combination of a strong LH grip and the lead elbow position being rather close to the body.

 

Just as a side note, I am afraid you are mistaken as regards Hardy's classification ideas. Hogan was a definite one planer because his lead arm at the top is not higher that his shoulder line (in fact, in Hogan's case, even lower than his shoulder line) - no matter that there are visible important differences between Mr.Hogan's swing motion and Hardy's instruction for one planers.

According to Mr.Hardy, the relation between lead arm and the shoulder line at the top is the only one verification as regards being one or two planers; the release type is also very important, however, it would not change anything in the classification (one can be a one planer (totally) or a one planer with a two plane release type, a two planer (totally) or a two planer with a one plane release type). BTW, Hogan's release was also one plane, since it was a push not a crossover one.

 

I wrote many months ago a special thread about Jim Hardy's theory and classifications, therefore, if you wish please take a look:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148302

 

Cheers

[mental]

I am of the opinion that the feet should be in the diagonal stance position always when the pelvis area motion happens, no matter what is the length of the club. Practically, only putter stance would require an even stance, since we do not need any hipo joint motion. In order to achieve it the rear foot ball should be in line with the lead foot heel, therefore, sort of diagonally to the target line. Of course, this position is offsetted via different feet position - the lead one is flared while the rear one is square to the target line.

 

Wow, this strikes me as the most unconventional suggestion so far from Biokinetics. It might also be the most logical -- why not align your balance points with the target line? I have several questions:

 

1. Keeping the left heel and right ball in line creates an extremely diagonal stance. What impact should this have on the hips? Should they be on the diagonal, or square to the target at address? What about impact?

 

2. Based only on a few practice swings by someone fairly new to the rotational swing, a diagonal stance makes it much harder to stay balanced at transition. Is this endemic to the setup, or a result of some other setup flaw?

 

3. A diagonal setup allows for a longer backswing since the hips can open more, correct? Is there a greater risk of overswinging as a result?

 

Thanks Daruisz for all your work investigating this.

[martinez]

Returning to the left elbow preset...your theories indicate that it is not important to preset the left (lead) elbow to your hip. My thought is that presetting the L elbow to your hip limits arm swing (and keeps your arms in front of you), so it would be preferred for a classical swinger or a Hardy 2 planer. Letting the arms hang freely seems to promote more range of arm swing which may be better for a Hardy 1 planer. I am not sure how the Hogan swing fits in, and there may be a debate here, but my impression is that he swings like a flat Hardy 2 planer with a low-left release (this is different to a Hardy 1 planer because of the way the arms work---stay more in front rather than swinging). So he would want that preset L elbow. I may be wrong though and would like to hear your thoughts.

 

To see this L elbow action, try swinging your left arm 1) as it hangs freely and 2) with your left elbow rotated counterclockwise so that it points to the L hip (or behind you). In the second case the arm swing is "limited" much sooner.

 

I used to pre-set my elbow counter clockwise now I don't and as a result I can get the club back more obliquely off the ball, which is what I'm trying to do to make a more rotary swing.

 

Tiger imo, rotates both humerus bones toward the centre of his chest throughout the swing from an address that already has them pre-set. This is what gives him the short BS with very little apparent wrist **** in a swing that is otherwise very similar to Hogans in direction and intention.

 

I now practice pre-setting the left elbow out toward the targetward direction. This allows my left arm to follow my pivot for longer before the counter-clockwise rotation of the left humerus slows it down. It's more dynamic this way I feel.

 

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z198/ha...Magic_Swing.flv

[JackieTreehorn]

I now practice pre-setting the left elbow out toward the targetward direction. This allows my left arm to follow my pivot for longer before the counter-clockwise rotation of the left humerus slows it down. It's more dynamic this way I feel.

 

For clarity I am taking the perspective of the golfer so clockwise is rotation to the right side for a right hander. Did you mean clockwise here?

 

Do you find any problems being too flat or too inside with your backswing? I am trying a rotary swing, now with the left forearm preset (which I think may help steepen my arm plane and keep my arms from getting behind me). Despite this preset I still have these issues. My goal was to have a rotary backswing without the need for arm lift, but after watching a sevam1 video [can remember which one now], I am not sure I can get my arm plane steep enough without a huge spine bend at address. I am searching for things like the left elbow preset and hope to find other things to help automate this.

 

One other thing I am looking into is the arm hang at address. My arms hang very high off the ground (37.5" wrist to floor) so that I need to hang them closer to my body to sole a club without having the club heel off the ground and my wrists contorted. This may also cause my rotary arm plane to be too flat and get the club behind me.

[finalist]

Tell you one thing, I use to spend hours in front of a mirror working on plane. Now, I spend those hours working on setup over and over and over. Who would've thought it? LOL. :lol:

 

So true! I used to be so focused on my plane. constantly checking it. now it's address and about 1 foot past impact. feet, hips, elbows and wrists.

[Dariusz J.]

Wow, this strikes me as the most unconventional suggestion so far from Biokinetics. It might also be the most logical -- why not align your balance points with the target line? I have several questions:

 

1. Keeping the left heel and right ball in line creates an extremely diagonal stance. What impact should this have on the hips? Should they be on the diagonal, or square to the target at address? What about impact?

 

2. Based only on a few practice swings by someone fairly new to the rotational swing, a diagonal stance makes it much harder to stay balanced at transition. Is this endemic to the setup, or a result of some other setup flaw?

 

3. A diagonal setup allows for a longer backswing since the hips can open more, correct? Is there a greater risk of overswinging as a result?

 

Thanks Daruisz for all your work investigating this.

 

 

My pleasure, Mental. :)

 

Just to begin answering your post, I'd like to confirm that some aspects of the BioSwing theory are totally different than the conventional golf instruction - not because I wanted to be original, but because I sincerily believe (no matter how arrogant it may sound) that certain things in the conventional theories do more harm than good to an average golfer. My biomechanical researches confirm it easily. I personally blame such theories for thousands of newbies who find the game as too difficult and, consequently, leave golf for good.

There are quite a few unorthodox aspects in the BioSwing theory, but all of them are supported by logics and decent know-how of biomechanics, the Diagonal Stance concept being surely one of them.

 

As regards your questions - my view is the following:

 

1) First, we need to define the word "heel". I use(d) this word because of lack of better one in my English vocabulary - what I meant is the front part of the heel that is directly below the ankle. Thus, it is not so extreme as it may sound, the more there is a visible difference in feet angles (the lead one is flared while the rear one is perpendicular to the target line). Balance points are just perfectly aligned with the target line, moreover, the motion of the rear hip joint (that creates a strong leverage point) is minimal and easy to repeat each time.

The hips should be definitely open towards the feet, therefore, one can assume that they are more or less parallel to the target line. Just in a similar position to what post-secret Mr.Hogan had. It is like this because we do not want an excessive motion of the lead hip while minimizing the motion of the rear one thanks to the Diagonal Stance, moreover, we do not want to bring too much weight to the rear heel.

 

2) This is because the whole theory refers to a certain pattern group that I believe is the best to eliminate a lot of timing issues. Therefore, I can feel your pain if you try to use the Diagonal Stance with a high plane swing pattern that is a less pivot-guided one. Therefore, if one wants to automate the motion it is indispensable to change one's pattern to a, say, one plane one. The reasons for this are desribed in detail in the main chapters (especially The Main Body and The Arms).

Golfers performing lowish plane height rotary swing patterns should find the Diagonal Stance as a very natural one and should have no problem to adopt it finding even a more balanced feel, that e.g. I do.

 

3) Yes, but no risk either of too big backswing turn of the hips (because of the rear knee joint preset combined with square position of the rear foot) or of overswinging (because the swing plane is low enough and because of seeking for a limitation in the lead forearm clockwise turn during backswing).

 

The whole swing is so easy to perform despite all the extensive techno-medical heavy duscussion in this thread. One needs only to do A FEW things correctly before the takeaway. The rest is almost automatic. I have spent some minutes hitting some balls in my office and I was astonished how powerful and repeatable is the ball flight without ANY WINTER BODY TRAINING (have no time for it).

If one ingrains all things corectly and match them to one's own DNA, I believe one will be able to lick what automatism in golf means.

 

Cheers

[ej002]

I just wanted to follow up my experiment with the "diagonal stance". At first I hated it, it did not work well. Combined with the Bio-K grip, I was hitting nothing but pull hooks (but very solid ones), and I could not figure it out why. I gave it some more work and there are some things I noticed that are important: The hips must to be open to the target (or at least square), otherwise it is would not be a "diagonal stance", it would just be a closed stance. So I worked on that. Still got some draws, so I realized moving from an open stance to a "diagonal stance" I was relying too much on the kicked in knee to monitor my weight, but I did not realize that my weight was not properly distibuted (I had too much weight back) and did not have my front hip over my front foot (as Slice would advocate). The knee does montior swaying, but one still must set up correctly with the proper weight distribution. (Left hip over left foot / reverse K). So I made these two changes and combined with the Bio-K grip, I really started to hit very powerful draws.

 

I was still unhappy because I could not hit it straight or fade it. So I played around with ball position (moved it back - started to hit pushes - so that was not it). But what I did realize was that since I began working with the Bio-K grip, my top hand was much stronger than normal, so I really had to concentrate on getting max rotation in the backswing and to make sure and hold that angle and cup as long as possible on the down swing. This put my trailing hand in the proper position on the way down and I was really able to feel the "three right hands" / "skipping a rock" coming through the impact zone (and I am more of a puller than pusher, but the feeling was there). I was able to rotate as hard a possible and continue to get great results without losing any balance whatsoever. I think that holding the cup is essential to prevent the face from shutting down too early while using this set up.

 

So far after working out the kinks, I think these two set up adjustments (Grip and Stance) are phenominal.

 

Thanks D!

[JakeBarnes]

Wow. Great stuff, Dariusz. That floored me.

 

So, in other words, the reason for the lack of separation is due to the lack of the stretch, the lack of tightness, the lack of turning your upper body as far as it will go while resisting with the lower body. This, from what I understand, will inevitably make it AUTOMATIC. Body does it own its own. And the separation wil be there and in the correct sequence. If that is it, then I say brilliant. So, the LIMIT must be found. Correct?

 

And from all this, and only by this, the old adage of starting the swing from the ground up which will "slot the club for you" is better explained right?

 

Yes and yes. The only two things missing for now here is a proper action of legs which is crucial as crucial the action of a human body base can be, as well as subduing the arms action to the pivot in a proper way.

And, it is a big exaggeration to say that it all is enough to make the swing be pure automatic. The theory concentrates only on removing the obstacles so that it can happen at least to a noticeable degree - which is not entirely possible when our brain can "see" certain actions of body segments separately. Moreover, I am very sure that if one can imagine an armless golfer with biokinetically great legs action, his body effort at "hitting" the ball would represent a perfect main body motion.

 

Look at this:

 

 

 

 

Dariusz. So you are saying I need to drop 80lbs to get back to my svelte skirt chasing weight????????????

 

Absolutely not :) Even if you are another 80lbs heavier your main body has its limits in motion. Most probably the sum of your body small X-Factors will be much lower (but not in all cases, since there are some fat and very flexible persons), however, it does not jeopardize the idea of an optimal clubhead velocity JUST FOR YOUR PARTICULAR SWING MOTION. :)

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

Wow. This image finally put into images the feeling I have been trying to get lately. Thanks Dariusz, very insightful take.

[Dariusz J.]

I just wanted to follow up my experiment with the "diagonal stance". At first I hated it, it did not work well. Combined with the Bio-K grip, I was hitting nothing but pull hooks (but very solid ones), and I could not figure it out why. I gave it some more work and there are some things I noticed that are important: The hips must to be open to the target (or at least square), otherwise it is would not be a "diagonal stance", it would just be a closed stance. So I worked on that. Still got some draws, so I realized moving from an open stance to a "diagonal stance" I was relying too much on the kicked in knee to monitor my weight, but I did not realize that my weight was not properly distibuted (I had too much weight back) and did not have my front hip over my front foot (as Slice would advocate). The knee does montior swaying, but one still must set up correctly with the proper weight distribution. (Left hip over left foot / reverse K). So I made these two changes and combined with the Bio-K grip, I really started to hit very powerful draws.

 

I was still unhappy because I could not hit it straight or fade it. So I played around with ball position (moved it back - started to hit pushes - so that was not it). But what I did realize was that since I began working with the Bio-K grip, my top hand was much stronger than normal, so I really had to concentrate on getting max rotation in the backswing and to make sure and hold that angle and cup as long as possible on the down swing. This put my trailing hand in the proper position on the way down and I was really able to feel the "three right hands" / "skipping a rock" coming through the impact zone (and I am more of a puller than pusher, but the feeling was there). I was able to rotate as hard a possible and continue to get great results without losing any balance whatsoever. I think that holding the cup is essential to prevent the face from shutting down too early while using this set up.

So far after working out the kinks, I think these two set up adjustments (Grip and Stance) are phenominal.

 

Thanks D!

 

This is one of the most important posts ever written in this thread. Thank you very much Erik for that - I could not describe it better. You have just shown to the readers the very merits of the Diagonal Stance role in the whole motion. Those who were/are afraid of pulls should read this post very carefully.

The bolded sentences are key ones in understanding how automatism is being brought to the swing motion using all necessary things done at setup and just benefitting from natural body limitations.

 

Many thanks again and cheers, mate !

[Dariusz J.]

Wow. This image finally put into images the feeling I have been trying to get lately. Thanks Dariusz, very insightful take.

 

Cheers, mate, best of luck :)

[Dariusz J.]

For a better visualization - post accident Mr.Hogan's example of the Diagonal Stance concept (with short iron and pitching wedge !):

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

For a better visualization - post accident Mr.Hogan's example of the Diagonal Stance concept (with short iron and pitching wedge !):

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Very interesting stuff.

 

Watch where his ball is starting, too !!!!

 

 

[Dariusz J.]

A good question, my friend. Generally, I've observed that the ball flight was, more or less, covered by the direction the shoulders pointed - with slight shifts to the right or left, dependent perhaps on wind conditions or Hogan's trajectory shaping or both:

 

 

 

 

 

I think we are very safe to say that his hips always pointed left while the toe line always pointed right of the ball trajectory line.

 

Cheers

[downtoscratch]

The diagonal stance is interesting. Old Joe Norwood called it the "cross lateral" and employed this type of foot placement. In the recent article by Kel Miyahira circulating on this forum that shows young Sadlowski's foot shift it's evident that the effect of this shift would marry up with the diagonal stance

even though his feet aren't so disposed. As far as the diversity of angles in Hogan's own case he shows

many "oblique" lines to borrow a word from martinez's own golfing vocabulary. Hogan's angles would be

the last to be used at a typical PGA beginners clinic!!!!

[martinez]

The diagonal stance is interesting. Old Joe Norwood called it the "cross lateral" and employed this type of foot placement. In the recent article by Kel Miyahira circulating on this forum that shows young Sadlowski's foot shift it's evident that the effect of this shift would marry up with the diagonal stance

even though his feet aren't so disposed. As far as the diversity of angles in Hogan's own case he shows

many "oblique" lines to borrow a word from martinez's own golfing vocabulary. Hogan's angles would be

the last to be used at a typical PGA beginners clinic!!!!

 

Yes indeed. Everything moves in opposition. The right elbow moving obliquely to the pivot is a big key.

 

I cannot prove it by video as yet................ but my trials and testing has made interesting discovery WRT the Hogan action. For months last year I was trying to nail down Tigers action (within my physical parameters of course) I got somewhat close but after 3 months of experimentation with Moe/Hogan more recently strictly Hogan.............. my swing is virtually identical to Tigers swing (with an iron on the range at the US open 2007) as of today, bearing in mind my hips are clearly tighter and my lie angle clearly flatter.

 

This just leads me to believe that Tiger has Hogan as his target model without question in my mind. Bear in mind Hogan is sooooo far from where most people realize in certain positions. Tiger is very close, the takeaway is a key area that I believe is misunderstood. The left side of the body reaches in the direction of the left toe which creates the coil. You coil by expanding off the left.....not tightening the right imo.

 

One important point for me is I feel my right elbow moving behind me and DOWN as my right hip pulls behind me and UP, both feel like I couldn't get them more behind me and yet neither are as OFF the ball as Hogan. This is not a compressing move, it is an expansion. The right hip/ heel the right hip/armpit and the right hip/elbow all with as much space as you can get. I feel it, it's unlimited energy and power, you can't hold back.......you try to. I wish I had three right hands....if not three right sides......the control would be amazing. Power is not an issue.

 

It's a great shame that Hogans' angles would be the last used at a beginners clinic, because the less square you are the more "feel" you have of where you are pointing. Try putting with an extremely open or closed stance and notice how easy it feels to square your upper body and arms and the awareness that then provides of the space in your own body. Most pro's line the upper body up before taking a stance, whereas most beginners plant their feet before taking a grip.

[downtoscratch]

Bearing in mind Hogan is sooooo far from where most people realize in certain positions it is as you

say, martinez, a great shame that he isn't the model of choice for learning. I believe the reason for

this has much to do with the apparent need to "package" golf neatly for the masses. Hogan too, is

IMO more about art than science and as such escapes the scrutiny of the more rigidly minded golf

swing constructionists. That is not to say he isn't studied....... just that the man's swing gets such

randomized appraisals. Take this ... leave that, and in the end it's just pieces parts... nothing whole.

DTS

[Dariusz J.]

Apart from you have said already, it is worth underlining again that the main advantage of the Diagonal Stance concept is setting (during setup, as all things should be done when we want to automate the swing !) the rear hip on a point that receives the CoG shift during backswing without necessity of moving the joint all over the place, and simultaneously, sets the correct direction of the linear motion of the rear hip at transition. That's why the shorter the club the less diagonal stance is necessary.

 

Martinez, you wrote a very interesting post. Great read, mate.

I remember Woods saying on several occassions that he would like to benefit from Hogan's wisdom as much as possible.

 

Cheers

 

P.S. Martinez, of course the backswing is an expansion, the transition is the compression and the downswing is the expansion again...but with a double catapult power. The SPC concept :)

[martinez]

Apart from you have said already, it is worth underlining again that the main advantage of the Diagonal Stance concept is setting (during setup, as all things should be done when we want to automate the swing !) the rear hip on a point that receives the CoG shift during backswing without necessity of moving the joint all over the place, and simultaneously, sets the correct direction of the linear motion of the rear hip at transition. That's why the shorter the club the less diagonal stance is necessary.

 

Martinez, you wrote a very interesting post. Great read, mate.

I remember Woods saying on several occassions that he would like to benefit from Hogan's wisdom as much as possible.

 

Cheers

 

P.S. Martinez, of course the backswing is an expansion, the transition is the compression and the downswing is the expansion again...but with a double catapult power. The SPC concept :)

 

Cheers DJ......

 

Hogan had very little compression aside from his entire expanded body pushing it's energy into the ground behind his left heel......he then expands further. Tiger has some compression of the lumbar spine (Much more so on the course than the range, and mainly with the Driver) , I have more than Tiger. It is something I consider an insidious problem as it restricts the movement of the right hip in its efforts to release left off the ball. Leading of course to blocks off the planet right for those with power.

 

Having said that, I would love a detailed description from you of what is exactly compressing. I really do think you have been able to put in so many words much of what I have learned through feel. BTW feel is real if you know your body, despite what some assert, it is my opinion that Hogan knew his body particularly after his obviously extensive rehab. You cannot move as he did as an old man out of pure athleticism, his movement is clearly shaped by an advance knowledge and awareness.

[magnum184]

Apart from you have said already, it is worth underlining again that the main advantage of the Diagonal Stance concept is setting (during setup, as all things should be done when we want to automate the swing !) the rear hip on a point that receives the CoG shift during backswing without necessity of moving the joint all over the place, and simultaneously, sets the correct direction of the linear motion of the rear hip at transition. That's why the shorter the club the less diagonal stance is necessary.

 

Martinez, you wrote a very interesting post. Great read, mate.

I remember Woods saying on several occassions that he would like to benefit from Hogan's wisdom as much as possible.

 

Cheers

 

P.S. Martinez, of course the backswing is an expansion, the transition is the compression and the downswing is the expansion again...but with a double catapult power. The SPC concept :)

 

Cheers DJ......

 

Hogan had very little compression aside from his entire expanded body pushing it's energy into the ground behind his left heel......he then expands further. Tiger has some compression of the lumbar spine (Much more so on the course than the range, and mainly with the Driver) , I have more than Tiger. It is something I consider an insidious problem as it restricts the movement of the right hip in its efforts to release left off the ball. Leading of course to blocks off the planet right for those with power.

 

Having said that, I would love a detailed description from you of what is exactly compressing. I really do think you have been able to put in so many words much of what I have learned through feel. BTW feel is real if you know your body, despite what some assert, it is my opinion that Hogan knew his body particularly after his obviously extensive rehab. You cannot move as he did as an old man out of pure athleticism, his movement is clearly shaped by an advance knowledge and awareness.

 

 

But Martinez,

 

How does it restrict the movement of the right hip? Are you fully onto your left side when this happens? Tiger wasn't. But, I'm pretty certain he is heading that direction. When he does that, I have a great feeling he will eventually get away from the inverted shaft that has been his tormentor with the longer clubs. LOL. If he does indeed do that, he will start to come into the ball from a better angle, clubhead working to the ball better, and the club will eventually start working back inside sooner with his longer stuff. The only question left to be unanswered is what MOTOR he will choose to use. Will it be the arms to rerotate the club back in front of him to come from this angle like he has been doing OR will he lower the swing and let the arms tie in with the pivot which will let the club do the same thing by itself? I don't know the answer to that one. He's been using the arms as a MOTOR for a long time.

 

What do you think?

 

Sorry to get too far off topic, Dariusz. Just thought is was interesting.

[Dariusz J.]

Cheers DJ......

 

Hogan had very little compression aside from his entire expanded body pushing it's energy into the ground behind his left heel......he then expands further. Tiger has some compression of the lumbar spine (Much more so on the course than the range, and mainly with the Driver) , I have more than Tiger. It is something I consider an insidious problem as it restricts the movement of the right hip in its efforts to release left off the ball. Leading of course to blocks off the planet right for those with power.

 

Having said that, I would love a detailed description from you of what is exactly compressing. I really do think you have been able to put in so many words much of what I have learned through feel. BTW feel is real if you know your body, despite what some assert, it is my opinion that Hogan knew his body particularly after his obviously extensive rehab. You cannot move as he did as an old man out of pure athleticism, his movement is clearly shaped by an advance knowledge and awareness.

 

I will try to do my best, not necessarily on Mr.Hogan's example. In fact, it would be an essence of the SPC conpcept in a few most important sentences that concerns each golfer.

First, a correct backswing must be performed via the rear side abduction - in your words - expansion; if one makes a biomechanically wrong backswing, i.e. by the lead side adduction, the compression will be achieved at start of the swing and maintains to the end of the backswing when the rear side may not find its limitations. When the backswing is correct one expands until the rear side (more specifically, certain points of the rear side find its limits sequentially); since the lead side is still unlimited in its motion and still moves via intertia created by the rear side pulling, a golfer can start his transition while the backswing phase has not been finished yet.

The crucial thing is to pay attention to certain areas of the body - some of them finish their rear side adduction earlier, some later. It, of course, depends on the time of finding limitations in the backswing phase. Those points that finds their limitations early are: ankle joint, knee joint, hip joint and cervical spine. Those points starts their transition early.

The first one is the ankle joint due to the proximity of inmovable feet that is beeing tied with the ground by sheer force; next, more or less in the same time, are knee joint (because of its preset) and cervical spine (because of eye sight - sligthly earlier in case of rear eye dominant golfers); last one of this group is hip joint (because of knee joint preset). It is worth stressing here that the hips should not be restricted in the backswing via creating additional artificial muscle torque, since the compression and further expansion would be much less noticeable and may be ill-timed.

Now, in those points, the compression happens and starts the downswing phase. The ankle area SPC is hardly visible because of lack of possibility of moving towards the target because of those shearing forces we have just mentioned. The SPC of the cervical fragment of the spine starts to release the compression and we can observe a slight move of the neck to the target. The SPC of the knee joint forces the whole rear leg to move slightly to the target because the knee joint solo cannot bend in this orientation (the scissors action of the legs). This speeds up the SPC of the hip joint forcing it to move parallely back to the target line (BTW, this is why the Diagonal Stance is important). It all happens when the medium part of the spine with all the flesh around still is finishing backswing.

This is how the coiling happens and the small X-factors are being achieved. Finally, the torque between the medium part of the spine and both framing points (cervical and lumbar/pelvis parts) are big enough to force the change of the movement orientation of the thorax. It happens while pelvis has already been catapulted by the former compression and starts to expand rapidly and forcefully. BTW, the expansion in the pelvis area is much bigger than in other parts because of its two joints that is equal to much bigger freedom of movement.

This is why, in a correctly sequential motion, there is practically not possible not to come to the ball correctly from the inside. It is also not possible to suffer from an incorrect CoG shift. The arms are tied to the main body at shoulder joints, therefore, they start their motion the latest together with the shoulders. The whole body is now in a big and forceful expansion phase (adduction of the lead side) being lead by the legs and the hips. The whole kinetic chain has started correctly.

 

IMHO, depending on a swing pattern or one's DNA, there are possibilities of slight differences in sequencing of the motion, however, the description seems to be very universal and rather exact. I am also of the opinion that this is how to automate the whole swing motion the best way. Shortly - one should do all necessary adjustments during setup, then benefit automatically from the natural limitations, then benefit also automatically from the SPC concept - all happening in a corect sequence and synch.

I am aware that what I whave just written can be boring, difficult to grasp, etc. but if you try to read it when observing a swing vid of a good golfer (especially from the rear), all of this would become clearer, I do hope.

 

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Sorry to get too far off topic, Dariusz. Just thought is was interesting.

 

Not at all, Magnum. I am also anxious to read Martinez's comments concerning the latest posts.

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

Now that I've had time to think about the SPC thoroughly, I think I can make a few comments.

 

If I am correct, what you are doing is making certain that centripetal force is maintained as well and as long possible. For this thread would be an ultimate failure if we were to give any reason for any other part of the body to be the sole and primary MOTOR of the golf swing.

 

What you are in fact doing is ensuring that the left side and right side are constantly playing their respective roles. That is indeed the only way to ensure that centripetal force is maximally obtained. There is never one side not participating.

 

Ultimately, this inward force will be the MOTOR of the golf swing. As long as the restrictions, guides, and mind are in the proper places, the thoughts and requirements of the player can be down to it's simplest form.

 

This SPC within the rotary pivot will pass the energy it creates through the arms, hands, and then the club when the LAWS of science demand it.

 

Now, to get the angles correct when all of this passes.

 

The fundamental notion here is that the body moves the arms, the hands hold the club, and everything else is reaction.

 

Can you time two turns consistently?

[Dariusz J.]

Now that I've had time to think about the SPC thoroughly, I think I can make a few comments.

 

If I am correct, what you are doing is making certain that centripetal force is maintained as well and as long possible. For this thread would be an ultimate failure if we were to give any reason for any other part of the body to be the sole and primary MOTOR of the golf swing.

 

What you are in fact doing is ensuring that the left side and right side are constantly playing their respective roles. That is indeed the only way to ensure that centripetal force is maximally obtained. There is never one side not participating.

 

Ultimately, this inward force will be the MOTOR of the golf swing. As long as the restrictions, guides, and mind are in the proper places, the thoughts and requirements of the player can be down to it's simplest form.

 

This SPC within the rotary pivot will pass the energy it creates through the arms, hands, and then the club when the LAWS of science demand it.

 

Now, to get the angles correct when all of this passes.

 

The fundamental notion here is that the body moves the arms, the hands hold the club, and everything else is reaction.

 

Can you time two turns consistently?

 

 

Well, Magnum, the whole swing motion is an arena of CP fighting inertia, as everything in our world that is being subdued to the rules of a rotary motion. Same with a kinetic chain. Action-reaction.

 

The SPC is a theoretical construct (because the sagittal plane is an imaginary plane) but easily explainable in reality. Imagine that the rear side pulling motion around an axis makes the lead side follow with a slight delay in time (use a soft and elastic rubber for a clearer picture), thus, extending the whole body; the rear side stops pulling because of some limitation points encountered; the lead side, however, still moves while the rear side begins to change the orientation of the motion because the body is elastic enough to over extend the cells and must shrink them back; the lead side won't disturb the rear side to change orientation since the shear force between the rear foot and the ground are too strong. Therefore, the rear foot must ensure enough CP force (like car tires on a curve).

The compression phase begins and lasts for a very short period of time long enough to make the lead side change the orientation. Then the lead side starts to be catapulted and the expansion in the whole system begins again but it is being now lead by the lead side, i.e. the lead side pulls the rear one.

Next, the lead side slows down and let the rear side compress it and pass all the energy from the core to the most distal part of the system, i.e. the clubhead. The kinetic chain ends, ball's gone.

 

The whole trick is that the SPC acts differently in time on different points of the system. This is the role of a golfer to set everything well and correctly during the setup (through stance and presets of joints) so that the transition and the downswing happen automatically. That's why we should e.g. find a limitation of the hip motion earlier than shoulders - because we want the hips to lead the parade in the downswing. That's why the rear knee joint is being preset. That's why the rear foot is set perpendicularily to the target. That's why the stance should be diagonal. Etc, etc.

The better all is set, the less timing issues will occur in the motion, and the easier will be to time those two turns, as you said. That's why how consistently all of this can be timed depends on a golfer and how well he/she knows his/her body and adjust all necessary settings before the backswing begins. For some of us, there must be stronger presets or more diagonal stance, for some of us - quite the reverse.

We all are different but practice will tell it to everyone.

 

My work here is aimed at finding automatism in the golf swing motion. It's a great challenge that brings a lot of satisfaction. But, in case it's not possible to find it ultimately (which is very probable), my work will be aimed at removing all possible obstacles, at least, on the endless way to, perhaps, the unreachable goal. Luckily for us, we can still play golf and enjoy it even if we cannot find the degree of control we desire, thus, it can be the unreachable goal and golf still will be played. :)

 

I don't know if my answer is satisfactory, my friend...but tried my best.

 

Cheers

[Easy1putt]

Dariusz,

 

Thanks for a great thread of info....it will take time to digest it. However I have a more direct, narrow issue.

 

Question:

 

I am a 58 yr. old, 12 handicap golfer who recently suffered an eye injury to my non-dominant left eye. Is there any instruction available or hints to help me play while my eye issues are resolved?

 

Any help or direction to instruction for this malady is appreciated.

 

Montie

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz,

 

Thanks for a great thread of info....it will take time to digest it. However I have a more direct, narrow issue.

 

Question:

 

I am a 58 yr. old, 12 handicap golfer who recently suffered an eye injury to my non-dominant left eye. Is there any instruction available or hints to help me play while my eye issues are resolved?

 

Any help or direction to instruction for this malady is appreciated.

 

Montie

 

You're welcome, Montie. In fact, it is very easy to prepare a short manual how to automate the motion for those who are not interested in deep biomechanic and physic backround divagations.

 

As per your question, if one's subdominant eye is injured it brings no changes to the eye dominance issues. In fact, this may "strengthen" the position of the already dominant eye. In some severe cases the perception of vision depth can be decreased but I would not worry about it if there is no permanent serious limitation of the subdominant eye vision.

Much more serious consequences are in case of a reverse problem, i.e. when one has problems with dominant eye vision. It can lead to a permanent change of eyedness of a person that can lead to temporary problems with coordination. One of my close friends started to lose his sight and had an operation for one and, after several weeks, for the other eye. Unfortunately, the doctors operated his subdominant eye as the first and the dominant as the second. Those few weeks was enough long period of time to change his eyedness. Although the second operation was the same successful his eyedness has not reverted to his natural one so far.

 

Cheers

[martinez]

Apart from you have said already, it is worth underlining again that the main advantage of the Diagonal Stance concept is setting (during setup, as all things should be done when we want to automate the swing !) the rear hip on a point that receives the CoG shift during backswing without necessity of moving the joint all over the place, and simultaneously, sets the correct direction of the linear motion of the rear hip at transition. That's why the shorter the club the less diagonal stance is necessary.

 

Martinez, you wrote a very interesting post. Great read, mate.

I remember Woods saying on several occassions that he would like to benefit from Hogan's wisdom as much as possible.

 

Cheers

 

P.S. Martinez, of course the backswing is an expansion, the transition is the compression and the downswing is the expansion again...but with a double catapult power. The SPC concept :)

 

Cheers DJ......

 

Hogan had very little compression aside from his entire expanded body pushing it's energy into the ground behind his left heel......he then expands further. Tiger has some compression of the lumbar spine (Much more so on the course than the range, and mainly with the Driver) , I have more than Tiger. It is something I consider an insidious problem as it restricts the movement of the right hip in its efforts to release left off the ball. Leading of course to blocks off the planet right for those with power.

 

Having said that, I would love a detailed description from you of what is exactly compressing. I really do think you have been able to put in so many words much of what I have learned through feel. BTW feel is real if you know your body, despite what some assert, it is my opinion that Hogan knew his body particularly after his obviously extensive rehab. You cannot move as he did as an old man out of pure athleticism, his movement is clearly shaped by an advance knowledge and awareness.

 

 

But Martinez,

 

How does it restrict the movement of the right hip? Are you fully onto your left side when this happens? Tiger wasn't. But, I'm pretty certain he is heading that direction. When he does that, I have a great feeling he will eventually get away from the inverted shaft that has been his tormentor with the longer clubs. LOL. If he does indeed do that, he will start to come into the ball from a better angle, clubhead working to the ball better, and the club will eventually start working back inside sooner with his longer stuff. The only question left to be unanswered is what MOTOR he will choose to use. Will it be the arms to rerotate the club back in front of him to come from this angle like he has been doing OR will he lower the swing and let the arms tie in with the pivot which will let the club do the same thing by itself? I don't know the answer to that one. He's been using the arms as a MOTOR for a long time.

 

What do you think?

 

Sorry to get too far off topic, Dariusz. Just thought is was interesting.

Magnum and DJ...sorry I missed this before but feel I want to add something now.

 

The compression into the ground of the core/tailbone can be seen in the three models I am using...Hogan/Moe/Tiger. In all of the cases there is a continued expansion between the tailbone-knees and tailbone-sternum. This provides great depth to the squat but also allows for ease of movement out of the squat.

 

Moe looks restricted, but it is only by virtue of his left leg reaching 90 degrees from where the clubs energy wants to go. The other two show no sign of restriction, although when Tiger tries to hammer one I see some compression in his lumber spine and I believe this restricts the right hip from releasing left. Joints move far better when they are open....the challenge in my training is to strengthen while opening the joints. You can see in my avatar a lack of space in my right side around the hip at impact......I'm working on it. :D

 

Magnum I think Tiger will go lower I really do. It's the logical next step. If he went back to a 43.5' Driver with the right lie angle I don't see him ever losing....unless he starts putting and chipping differently.

[Dariusz J.]

In all of the cases there is a continued expansion between the tailbone-knees and tailbone-sternum.

 

Martinez, could you explain in other words what you mean ? Tailbone-knees and tailbone-sternum ?

I ask since I believe you are onto something important, however, it is necessary to know exactly IMO what those two notions mean. Thanks.

 

Cheers