So What Can We Do?

[777twist]

Never encourage faster groups to play through, UNLESS there are a couple holes wide open in front of them...

 

 

Good call!

 

When people wave us up, I yell, "JUST HURRY UP!!!!"

 

it makes no sense....like you said, it actually just slows things down even more.

 

Hmm...yelling at the group in front to hurry up....not a bad idea! I have, on a couple occasions having been driven to the brink of insanity as the group ahead takes 20 minutes to finish the hole and clearly not in any particular hurry, yelled from the fairway "LET'S GO, HIT THE BALL ALREADY FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD!!!!!" At the time I felt that was rude, but thinking about it now, maybe it's something we should all do. Civility has failed us. Let's take back the golf course.

 

"WOLVERINES!!!!!" :clapping:

 

 

Only if you are prepared fight! I had guys yell at my foursome one day, we told them to play through if they wanted, they said "just play faster" ...and that's when we yelled "GO F YOURSELF" and I was soooooo hoping they would come over!!! They ended up calling the ranger out, but he didn't do crap. He said to "pick up the pace" and we said "we told them they could play through" and he said "oh, well then that's their problem I guess."

 

People ask me to play through all the time, I have no problem. Well, other than apparently when I have an audience I play much worse! But we always ask people to play through if they are on our a** for a few holes, as we hope people would let us play through.

 

I only had one issue with some old farts who wouldn't let us play through (we actually skipped them because a tournament was going to start and these guy were taking FOREVER!!!), anyway, they got pissed and said they were keeping up with the group in front...but the reality is they were sort of playing as an 8-some, cuz they were with the group in front of them. The course just gave us a free round, and we left.

[grabthepin]

For starters they books tee times every 8 minutes and as a result, they are never, ever on schedule. 8 minutes theoretically works out to 4.5 hours, but when the golf course does ZERO to enforce any pace of play, they cannot reasonably book tee times that close together.

 

How do you have 8 minutes theoretically equaling 4.5 hours? I thought 13+ mins a hole was 4 hours?

 

Multiple groups on the one hole.

 

4.5 hours = 31 eight-minute tee slots = 31 groups on the course at any one time = 1.7 groups per hole. Not unreasonable if each group averages less than 14 minutes (4.5hours/18) per hole.

[Cbey77]

Okay,

 

I'm going to look at this question the way I would look at an educational program that I might develop. First and foremost, we need to define the problem as stated in an earlier post. What is slow play? Next we need to identify the causes of slow play. Now, I know there are a lot of anecdotal stories about slow play. But, has there ever been a study done on slow play? You can not really institute a solution if you do not have the true evidence of the problem. You may find that what you think is the cause is not really the cause. Once you have the data to justify your action, then you put a plan in to action that has a way of being evaluated and improved several times a year. So, with all that said, until we get some hard data, we can come up with all the ideas in the world but not solve the problem. You can not fix something unless you know what is really broken. And I know some folks on here will say, "I know what the problem is." well, just about every post on here has a slightly or vastly different idea of what the problem is. So, we can conclude from that fact that we really do not "understand" what the problem is. If you do not go through this process in some way, shape, or form, we will continue to have this conversation.

[Well Played]

Okay,

 

I'm going to look at this question the way I would look at an educational program that I might develop. First and foremost, we need to define the problem as stated in an earlier post. What is slow play? Next we need to identify the causes of slow play. Now, I know there are a lot of anecdotal stories about slow play. But, has there ever been a study done on slow play? You can not really institute a solution if you do not have the true evidence of the problem. You may find that what you think is the cause is not really the cause. Once you have the data to justify your action, then you put a plan in to action that has a way of being evaluated and improved several times a year. So, with all that said, until we get some hard data, we can come up with all the ideas in the world but not solve the problem. You can not fix something unless you know what is really broken. And I know some folks on here will say, "I know what the problem is." well, just about every post on here has a slightly or vastly different idea of what the problem is. So, we can conclude from that fact that we really do not "understand" what the problem is. If you do not go through this process in some way, shape, or form, we will continue to have this conversation.

 

I think most avid golfers understand the many factors involved in slow play. The goal here is to try and suggest ways to get slow players to play quicker, without necessarily giving up enjoyment.

[Swingtheclub]

I realize as I make these comments that you guys must think I play slow. I played today in less than three hours with a guy who shot 102 we were riding.

 

 

Here is the deal if it ever gets to a point where slow play is enforced gestapo style, we have a whole new problem.

 

Golf is already not growing at the pace it once was. Ask yourself are you willing to pay more to play faster.

 

Honestly I do not think the slow problem is so bad at Private clubs. Just the same you start laying down the law with Marshals with stop watches and people will just start quitting the game.

 

There are ways to speed up play, but you are never going to have four hour rounds on a public golf course.

 

I used to be the Pro at a nine hole public course. Saturdays and Sundays I allowed two and a half hours for the turn. These guys could not play a lick and they all wanted to play eighteen.

 

Now I know what you are thinking slow play is killing the game. As you say this ask yourself do you like to be rushed. How would you like a Marshall to tell you to speed the hell up after you paid 40 bucks to play.

 

Trust me they do not pay Marshalls enough to make them nice.

 

 

So what is the answer to the problem of slow play Lol patience

[Well Played]

I realize as I make these comments that you guys must think I play slow. I played today in less than three hours with a guy who shot 102 we were riding.

 

???

 

Golf is already not growing at the pace it once was. Ask yourself are you willing to pay more to play faster.

 

I agree golf is not as popular as it once was. I actually think one of the reasons this is the case is slow play. And while I certainly don't think it's the best solution, yes, I personally would pay more if I knew I could get around in 4 hours. Again the point of this thread is not to discourage slow players from playing and enjoying the game, but I do think the higher the greens fees the better the pace of play. Now this is generally speaking, and wouldn't be the case for every course. I think in general if greens fees were higher the clientele would be more serious golfers, who tend to be more conscious of etiquette, rules, pace of play, etc.

 

 

There are ways to speed up play, but you are never going to have four hour rounds on a public golf course.

 

Really? Never?

 

Now I know what you are thinking slow play is killing the game.

 

I don't think slow play is killing the game. Listen, as much as I love golf I will continue to play golf even if rounds start averaging 5-6 hours. It will take more than that to get me off the course. However, that doesn't mean we can't try to find ways to keep the pace reasonable, thus making it more enjoyable.

[golfortennis]

I realize as I make these comments that you guys must think I play slow. I played today in less than three hours with a guy who shot 102 we were riding.

 

 

Here is the deal if it ever gets to a point where slow play is enforced gestapo style, we have a whole new problem.

 

Golf is already not growing at the pace it once was. Ask yourself are you willing to pay more to play faster.

 

Honestly I do not think the slow problem is so bad at Private clubs. Just the same you start laying down the law with Marshals with stop watches and people will just start quitting the game.

 

There are ways to speed up play, but you are never going to have four hour rounds on a public golf course.

 

I used to be the Pro at a nine hole public course. Saturdays and Sundays I allowed two and a half hours for the turn. These guys could not play a lick and they all wanted to play eighteen.

 

Now I know what you are thinking slow play is killing the game. As you say this ask yourself do you like to be rushed. How would you like a Marshall to tell you to speed the hell up after you paid 40 bucks to play.

 

Trust me they do not pay Marshalls enough to make them nice.

 

 

So what is the answer to the problem of slow play Lol patience

 

I have to disagree with this vehemently. There is a problem, but because there are fewer people, we should let them do whatever the hell they want? I can't agree with this.

 

What you are going to find is that the people who do play often will get driven away because the few casual players that everyone seems to be chasing have been given carte blanche.

 

You ask about the marshal after you paid 40 bucks to play, well everyone else paid their 40 bucks, and they didn't do it so they could stand around and do nothing for 5 hours.

 

wellshafted says he would play even rounds went to 5-6 hours. thing is, he would get driven to aplace that does maintain good pace of play. Eventually the fact that you are spending 1-2 extra hours each time will cut into the number of times you play. It's like when my fiance and I were traingin for a half-ironman triathlon last year. We got sick of it because of the training. At my level of conditioning, an hour run is about 6 miles. A lot of people we know who we would go train with would cover 10 miles in that same time. So for them getting a certain mileage in is a hobby. For us it became a job.

 

Same thing here. You can't start accepting slow play as inevitable, because that will drive far more people who play often from the game than the number of people who stop playing because they get told the 6 hours it takes them to get around is not quick enough.

 

I'm sorry, there need to be standards. In a lot of walks of life for that matter, but golf should not be pandering to the lowest common denominator.

[Swingtheclub]

There are ways to speed up play, but you are never going to have four hour rounds on a public golf course.

 

I mispokee I should have said maybe as a rule of thumb you are not going to see four hour rounds on a public golf course

 

Then again maybe if you gave the Marshalls bullwhips?

 

I guess I will never get it no place better for me than on a golf course in the sun enjoying my friends.

 

Why would I want to have to rush? Or even worse rush the people in front of me. I have said before I play with guys that rush every shot so they can finish ten minutes faster and sit in the bar and drink.

[golfortennis]

There are ways to speed up play, but you are never going to have four hour rounds on a public golf course.

 

I mispokee I should have said maybe as a rule of thumb you are not going to see four hour rounds on a public golf course

 

Then again maybe if you gave the Marshalls bullwhips?

 

I guess I will never get it no place better for me than on a golf course in the sun enjoying my friends.

 

Why would I want to have to rush? Or even worse rush the people in front of me. I have said before I play with guys that rush every shot so they can finish ten minutes faster and sit in the bar and drink.

 

 

 

Ok, I have two issues with your post. #1: are you there to play golf, or hang with yrou friends? If it's more the latter than the former, then do it on your back deck or on the beach, or somewhere where you can take all day if you want, and it doesn't affect other people how long you take. Maybe you mean it differently, but frankly it's very selfish of you to think that when you're on a golf course, you can play at whatever pace you want, "enjoying you friends" and everybody behind you has to wait for you to do so.

 

Secondly, I don't know where you get this "rushing" stuff from. I've never had to rush in a foursome to get done in four hours. People just need to go to their ball, and not stand by the other guy's on the other side of the fairway, be ready to hit when it's their turn, and just flat out pay attention to what is going on. Even a 110 shooter can get around in 4 hours without rushing if they do that. If this cuts into the social aspect too much, then it goes back to my point above.

 

I just really can't understand what it is that people are doing to take 5 hours to get around the course. A person who is needing to rush to get around in 4hours to me is a person who is not there to play golf. golf just happens to pop up every few minutes as something to do in between whatever it is they are really doing.

[larrybud]

i was reading this again and it seems all the problems could be fixed with rangers doing a better job of seeing what going out there...

I was playing yesterday at a local muni. 3000 yards. I play with my dad, who's 79, and two other guys in their 80's. One of the 82 year old and me carry our clubs. We can play this course in 3:45. I see an old man ranger riding around all day just clueless. More than once he drove across our fairway right before one of us was about to hit... more on him later.

 

So we're on the 4th tee, and there are 3 groups on this whole, and 3 groups on the next hole, a par 3. A huge log jam. So as I scan the course for the bottle neck, I spot a 4-some of ladies approaching the 6th green with *three* holes open in front of them. No even close to playing ready golf. One woman would just sit her butt in the cart, and be driving 15 yards up to the ball.

 

The ranger just happened to be driving by at this time, and I said to him, pointing, "There's your back log, they have 3 holes open in front of them". And he responds: "Yeah, nothin' you can do".

 

I said "Well, you could talk to them and get them to pick up their balls, skip a hole, play ready golf, all sorts of things".

 

He says "I spoke to them once".

 

I said "Time to speak to them again, then."

 

He says "Sorry, nothing I can do".

 

f'ing ridiculous. So what is the city paying you for? The 2nd 9 took 2:30 to play, waiting every shot.

[JeffreySpicoli]

I was playing yesterday at a local muni. 3000 yards. I play with my dad, who's 79, and two other guys in their 80's. One of the 82 year old and me carry our clubs. We can play this course in 3:45. I see an old man ranger riding around all day just clueless. More than once he drove across our fairway right before one of us was about to hit... more on him later.

 

So we're on the 4th tee, and there are 3 groups on this whole, and 3 groups on the next hole, a par 3. A huge log jam. So as I scan the course for the bottle neck, I spot a 4-some of ladies approaching the 6th green with *three* holes open in front of them. No even close to playing ready golf. One woman would just sit her butt in the cart, and be driving 15 yards up to the ball.

 

The ranger just happened to be driving by at this time, and I said to him, pointing, "There's your back log, they have 3 holes open in front of them". And he responds: "Yeah, nothin' you can do".

 

I said "Well, you could talk to them and get them to pick up their balls, skip a hole, play ready golf, all sorts of things".

 

He says "I spoke to them once".

 

I said "Time to speak to them again, then."

 

He says "Sorry, nothing I can do".

 

f'ing ridiculous. So what is the city paying you for? The 2nd 9 took 2:30 to play, waiting every shot.

 

Those were ex-wives of someone whom shall remained unnamed.

 

He taught them the mantra, "Why would I want to have to rush?"

[larrybud]

There are ways to speed up play, but you are never going to have four hour rounds on a public golf course.

 

Certainly not with that attitude! No wonder it took them 2.5 hours to play 9 holes. You're going in with the expectation of a long round.

 

Keep pace is not being rushed, it's being ready to hit your shot when it's your turn. It's only being rushed if you're in a daze, wandering around, not getting ready to hit your next shot.

 

Pace of play is simple: Get your course speed rated (that is, the USGA comes out and determines the proper pace of play for each hole), and enforce it starting with group #1 at 6am on Saturday morning. Then space your tee times appropriately. Then make sure every group understands that their job is to keep pace with the group in front of them, and that if they fall a hole behind, they will be told to skip the hole they are currently on.

 

NO WAY that drives people away, and if it does drive some away, it would easily be offset by the number of people that would want to play on such a course. I stay AWAY from courses in my area that I know suck on the weekends.

[777twist]

Ok, I think everyone needs to get these 4 hour numbers out of their heads. I have asked before and I don't think any has said anything about a formula used to calculate these times. And until some tests and analysis is done, I don't think you can hold anyone to any time.

 

The problem is this...

 

1. Different handicaps are playing different tees (not always the proper ones based on handicap)

2. Courses have different lengths and ratings

3. Courses play differently after it rains

4. Courses play harder and harder inbetween maintenance days. I play a course that mows it's rough to about an inch and half and then lets it grow to about 3.4 - 4 inches. That's a pretty big difference and should affect most people's games.

5. Courses that are played heavy end up with a lot more divots, ball marks, etc... and all of that contributes to making the course harder.

6. Shoot, think even the sky can affect how everyone plays. There are days I can see the ball very clearly from hit to finish, there are other days depending on what the sky looks like that I lose the ball and can't see it. That will end up taking more time to find as your search area is bigger.

 

So my point, a study needs to be done on how all these things influence how long it takes people to finish. Once complete, then maybe each course (depending on the day) can set a pace of play for that day. Normal pace of play for CourseX is 4:10, but since grass is about an inch higher and it rained pace is now set at 4:30 or something like that.

 

But I just don't think you can have a set pace of play for all these different handicaps ...especially when dealing with different courses... but not to mention the points I made above about how a single course can change. Sure, if you are a 15 handicap or less, you can manage well enough that you hit enough fairways that you don't have to search a lot in the rough, but over that... that's a lot of sprayed balls throughout the day.

[Ghost_Orchid]

There are ways to speed up play, but you are never going to have four hour rounds on a public golf course.

 

Certainly not with that attitude! No wonder it took them 2.5 hours to play 9 holes. You're going in with the expectation of a long round.

 

Keep pace is not being rushed, it's being ready to hit your shot when it's your turn. It's only being rushed if you're in a daze, wandering around, not getting ready to hit your next shot.

 

Pace of play is simple: Get your course speed rated (that is, the USGA comes out and determines the proper pace of play for each hole), and enforce it starting with group #1 at 6am on Saturday morning. Then space your tee times appropriately. Then make sure every group understands that their job is to keep pace with the group in front of them, and that if they fall a hole behind, they will be told to skip the hole they are currently on.

 

NO WAY that drives people away, and if it does drive some away, it would easily be offset by the number of people that would want to play on such a course. I stay AWAY from courses in my area that I know suck on the weekends.

 

A local course here have GPS on all of their carts (no walkers)...and they strictly enforce pace of play. If you fall behind, the rangers will be on you to tell you why you're falling behind. If you fall behind too much, they'll make you skip a hole or ask you to leave. They make sure you know about their speed of play policy on their website and in the prohsop.

[Well Played]

Ok, I think everyone needs to get these 4 hour numbers out of their heads. I have asked before and I don't think any has said anything about a formula used to calculate these times. And until some tests and analysis is done, I don't think you can hold anyone to any time.

 

The problem is this...

 

1. Different handicaps are playing different tees (not always the proper ones based on handicap)

2. Courses have different lengths and ratings

3. Courses play differently after it rains

4. Courses play harder and harder inbetween maintenance days. I play a course that mows it's rough to about an inch and half and then lets it grow to about 3.4 - 4 inches. That's a pretty big difference and should affect most people's games.

5. Courses that are played heavy end up with a lot more divots, ball marks, etc... and all of that contributes to making the course harder.

6. Shoot, think even the sky can affect how everyone plays. There are days I can see the ball very clearly from hit to finish, there are other days depending on what the sky looks like that I lose the ball and can't see it. That will end up taking more time to find as your search area is bigger.

 

So my point, a study needs to be done on how all these things influence how long it takes people to finish. Once complete, then maybe each course (depending on the day) can set a pace of play for that day. Normal pace of play for CourseX is 4:10, but since grass is about an inch higher and it rained pace is now set at 4:30 or something like that.

 

But I just don't think you can have a set pace of play for all these different handicaps ...especially when dealing with different courses... but not to mention the points I made above about how a single course can change. Sure, if you are a 15 handicap or less, you can manage well enough that you hit enough fairways that you don't have to search a lot in the rough, but over that... that's a lot of sprayed balls throughout the day.

 

 

This is a fair point, 777.

 

I can't say the standard for every course should be 4 hours or 4.5 hours. Actually for me personally, 4.5 hours is not that bad for most of the courses I play. I would just like to see courses cut back on the 5-6 hour rounds. And while I know some on this forum think 4 hours is too long for a round of golf, I don't care what the course condition, player handicap, weather, etc. In my opinion an 18-hole round of golf simply should never take longer than 5 hours (not including special events, tournaments, etc.).

[alfie]

As stated above, I place 100% of the blame on the golf courses. If they simply enforced a decent pace we'd have no problems.

 

Very few courses do this...for obvious reasons.

 

Mostly agree w/above reply.

It needs to be stated to EVERYONE at the sign up desk the basics of keeping "pace" and the course rangers need to point out to slower parties to either "get moving" or allow the group(s) behind to go thru.

Common sense on the golf course seem to be so often "forgotten".

[Ronzo]

There are limits to how far you can push this. Case in point: I played a round with a buddy who had a bad day over the weekend. he was all over the map. But we were paired with a couple of guys a little older than we who complained that the round on a Saturday was taking longer than the THREE HOURS they were used to playing after work on a weekday. I can tell you why they played fast. THEY HIT OUR BALLS IN THE ROUGH WHEN THEY WENT OB, COULDN"T FIND THEIRS, OR WHEN THEY WENT IN THE WATER! This happened twice during the round, at... ah... "inconvenient" times for them. Speaking for myself, I thought it odd that my ball got hit by the wrong player, when I made a point of telling them what my markings were on the first tee.

 

They shouldn't have been moaning about slow play on a Saturday with a full course. We were chasing people all day. There was no hole open ahead of us. And they didn't play well enough from tee to green to complain. They were all over the course, too. When I saw them hit, they were rolling it over. Nice of them to shake our hands silently on the 18th green, too.

 

Oh, yes. This "horribly slow round" was 4:50, INCLUDING a 40 minute rain delay. Actual time of play was 4:10.

 

Rude people irritate me.