Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[TEConnor]

So this seems like the path is heading towards Hogan being a 4 barrel right arm swinger ( right elbow being the center of the stroke)

 

8iron, you and I speak a different language. That's not to say that I agree or disagree with your point of view, just that I don't understand it. I myself am very fond of the movie Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, but I digress...

 

Tim

[magnum184]

Just thought I would throw this out there. Draw your own conclusions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SEE ALSO : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwogLVGtDa8

 

 

THINGS THAT MAKE YOU SAY.........HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

[downtoscratch]

IMHO the fourth picture down is the only one that bears an accurate portrayal of the TRUTH everyone is seeking

in Hogan's swing. I'm aware that I seem to be refuting the images of Hogan himself. What he's doing isn't wrong

just the perception given by these photos. dts

[ej002]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nphSz0syyWA

 

add this one

 

It is funny, I quit hitting baseballs or softballs because I could not golf at the same time in the year, that was before I moved to a "rotational" golf swing... maybe I should head back to the batting cages?

[juansky]

The secret has been found guys, it all makes sense, the dirt was always about the baseball swing and never about Hogan himself....lol! :o That's a HUGE eye opener, we can finally put this subject to rest. :tongue:

 

Mr. Hogan was sneaky all right.

[martinez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nphSz0syyWA

 

add this one

 

It is funny, I quit hitting baseballs or softballs because I could not golf at the same time in the year, that was before I moved to a "rotational" golf swing... maybe I should head back to the batting cages?

 

Notice the fellow in the video rotating over his right with the left after impact instead of maintaining/extending the direction he is going in. That's Hogan's secret for me....how does he do that? It's easy to see the result in his finish, it's not so easy to do. I can do it with an evenly balanced stick as easy as anything, a baseball bat or cricket bat....easy. A golf club? Not so easy hehe.

[downtoscratch]

martinez said.............. "Notice the fellow in the video rotating over his right with the left after impact". No I

don't see that. Can you elaborate? dts

 

P.S. What I do see is his right elbow in such a blocked angle it's above his ears........ sure his hands cross-over

very much later as you are saying but it seems remote to the topic here, not the best example.

[magnum184]

The secret has been found guys, it all makes sense, the dirt was always about the baseball swing and never about Hogan himself....lol! :o That's a HUGE eye opener, we can finally put this subject to rest. :tongue:

 

Mr. Hogan was sneaky all right.

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't have any reason to believe in a SECRET and have little time for them. I've suggested before that Hogan had a few epiphanies in his day.

 

My only purpose in posting the pics of baseball swings was my own fascination about how the baseball swing MIGHT have influenced Hogan. I was just curious as to what was going through his mind and what he liked about it and what he discarded. In general, I can't help but see quite a few significant characteristics. Does that make them justifiable? No. Coincidence? Maybe. Regardless, I know he spoke about baseball a few times (Seitz, 5 Lessons), was close with Sam Byrd, and apparently spent some time with Ted Williams. It would be interesting to know if anything rubbed off on him. It would be interesting to know the deductions made if he did allow the baseball swing to inspire him.

[martinez]

martinez said.............. "Notice the fellow in the video rotating over his right with the left after impact". No I

don't see that. Can you elaborate? dts

 

P.S. What I do see is his right elbow in such a blocked angle it's above his ears........ sure his hands cross-over

very much later as you are saying but it seems remote to the topic here, not the best example.

I never said the hands did I? Hogan imo continued to work in the direction you see in the photos to counter the forces of the rotating club. I believe he swung with almost no torque in the club, so he used his body to counter the natural torque of the club.

 

So yeah this is not the best example of what I'm saying....because the guy finishes off balance swinging a balanced stick.

 

The connection is undeniable Magnum, a baseball bat doesn't twist and torque nearly as much as a golf shaft, that's the first place I looked when the connection became apparent. A Cricket bat is even easier to see because it has a flat side....whether torque is occurring in the blade.

[downtoscratch]

magnum,

Having posted the images yourself and suggesting that we all draw our own conclusions it might be

helpful if you gave some account of your own conclusions regarding these images. The one thing I'll add here

is this, Jimmy Ballard, who was mentored by Byrd would say it something like this in regard to the left elbow

for a right handed golfer.... "if the left elbow's down and the right hip is up the club will square up every trip".

dts

 

P.S. My distraction with the images you posted is simply this. Nearly all accounts ever written regarding this

image angle will tell it that the elbow of the trailing arm leads the hand. It does not. MVSO

[downtoscratch]

martinez,

No you didn't say the hands............ I did. Just my point. What then was yours when you referred us to the cross-over? dts

[martinez]

My point was he is turning the bat over, just like every golfer basically does at some point in the swing. Imo Hogan did not.

[downtoscratch]

I agree.... sorta. Not with his hands he didn't. But just like any swing of the arms from one side of the body to the other there is a cross -over appearance as seen by the right arm being above the left at the finish of the swing.... be it Hogan or any BODY else. Would this not be true since at the finish Hogan's right arm is the extended (straight) one and the left arm is bent..... mirror image of the arms when swung to the other side of the trunk.

dts

[PurePursuit]

Agreed DTS. But I still am a little puzzled by your PM. When I get some more free time at work I'll respond.

[Siteseer2]

My point was he is turning the bat over, just like every golfer basically does at some point in the swing. Imo Hogan did not.

agreed, thats the way I see it... (Taking it one step further, however, did the pivot square the clubface because his shaft was always on the right arm plane in the downswing, due to physics? Or, did Hogan manipulate the path or clubface in a manner unique to his swing to square the clubface?)

[JD3]

The secret has been found guys, it all makes sense, the dirt was always about the baseball swing and never about Hogan himself....lol! :o That's a HUGE eye opener, we can finally put this subject to rest. :tongue:

 

Mr. Hogan was sneaky all right.

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't have any reason to believe in a SECRET and have little time for them. I've suggested before that Hogan had a few epiphanies in his day.

 

My only purpose in posting the pics of baseball swings was my own fascination about how the baseball swing MIGHT have influenced Hogan. I was just curious as to what was going through his mind and what he liked about it and what he discarded. In general, I can't help but see quite a few significant characteristics. Does that make them justifiable? No. Coincidence? Maybe. Regardless, I know he spoke about baseball a few times (Seitz, 5 Lessons), was close with Sam Byrd, and apparently spent some time with Ted Williams. It would be interesting to know if anything rubbed off on him. It would be interesting to know the deductions made if he did allow the baseball swing to inspire him.

Back then sports in America WAS baseball. It would have been impossible not to be influenced by baseball. imho

[fats]

True JD and EVERY baseball player who plays golf that I have met hooks the pants off of the ball....if they get serious about the game the hook is what they have to tame....don't they hit a baseball slightly forward of the body on a perfect center field hit? If so that's a pull hook in golf.

[fats]

The secret has been found guys, it all makes sense, the dirt was always about the baseball swing and never about Hogan himself....lol! :o That's a HUGE eye opener, we can finally put this subject to rest. :tongue:

 

Mr. Hogan was sneaky all right.

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't have any reason to believe in a SECRET and have little time for them. I've suggested before that Hogan had a few epiphanies in his day.

 

My only purpose in posting the pics of baseball swings was my own fascination about how the baseball swing MIGHT have influenced Hogan. I was just curious as to what was going through his mind and what he liked about it and what he discarded. In general, I can't help but see quite a few significant characteristics. Does that make them justifiable? No. Coincidence? Maybe. Regardless, I know he spoke about baseball a few times (Seitz, 5 Lessons), was close with Sam Byrd, and apparently spent some time with Ted Williams. It would be interesting to know if anything rubbed off on him. It would be interesting to know the deductions made if he did allow the baseball swing to inspire him.

 

 

Speaking of Secrets...I picked up one of my own today...WoooWeeeee Babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!! Another 40 yards and I can finally SEE your ball way up there in the fairway Magnum...LOL

[martinez]

I agree.... sorta. Not with his hands he didn't. But just like any swing of the arms from one side of the body to the other there is a cross -over appearance as seen by the right arm being above the left at the finish of the swing.... be it Hogan or any BODY else. Would this not be true since at the finish Hogan's right arm is the extended (straight) one and the left arm is bent..... mirror image of the arms when swung to the other side of the trunk.

dts

Yes of course at the finish that is true, but he is lower...more left...yet still both arms appear on the same plane as the shaft as the left arm folds. I get the feeling you're pushing for something here? It's an obvious difference, you can't possibly tell me you can't see it, so your questions are in the form of something other than a genuine inquiry :P You are trying to lead me to some conclusion that you have already reached I feel.

 

My point was he is turning the bat over, just like every golfer basically does at some point in the swing. Imo Hogan did not.

agreed, thats the way I see it... (Taking it one step further, however, did the pivot square the clubface because his shaft was always on the right arm plane in the downswing, due to physics? Or, did Hogan manipulate the path or clubface in a manner unique to his swing to square the clubface?)

As I said before I believe he tried to swing the club with minimal torque...the cupping and natural un-cupping of the wrist is an example of him putting the torsion into his body to spare the club the need. He didn't manipulate it as much as he knew where he wanted the club to travel and how he allowed it to travel that way. He did that imo by moving his body to both corral and trap the club, then get the hell out of its way. It's the getting out of its way that currently has me stumped.

[dlygrisse]

Could it be that the secret was simply he found a way whether physical or mental, to release the club so the clubface stayed perpendicular to the plane? I believe the TGM guys call it an angled hinge release. To me the 9-3 drill helps ingrain this type of release, my theory is not as fun as the stuff you guys are kicking around, but I think it is on the right track, so how did he do it? IMHO I think that he kept his upper arms connected to his upper chest as he rotated through impact and beyond, the clubface stayed perpenducular to the plane or almost square/in-line with his spine through impact, if neither arm disconnects from the chest till 3 oclock then the clubface should never over rotate and cause the ducking hook he was afraid of, I think the Life magazine secrect was the first part of this and keeping the upper arms glued to the chest is the second part. JMO.

 

BTW, I think that you all and Sevam are really reaching if you overthink the "Secrets in the Dirt" Statement by thinking it means anything more than hitting a lot of shots at the driving range, or practice area. I will add that Hogan had a lot of other really great fundamentals, a very powerful and athletic swing, and has he stated in Life magazine, the secret would only help a good golfer and would probably ruin a bad one. His secret took a struggleing tour level player, who was probably already one of the best 100 players in the world and made him a legend, it didnt take a 12 handicapper and make him a legend.

 

I am no golf pro, just a 5-6 capper, but I have been paying attention to a lot of these threads over the last seveal years, and to me this seems to be as close to the answer as i can fathom. When it comes down to it the purpose of the secret had to be how did he keep the clubface square on an inside to square to inside path with his great lag and speed, I think if you are looking anywhere else it is just window dressing.

 

Love to hear your thoughts guys.......

[magnum184]

Speaking of Secrets...I picked up one of my own today...WoooWeeeee Babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!! Another 40 yards and I can finally SEE your ball way up there in the fairway Magnum...LOL

 

 

Yeah, and that's when a man of your talents sticks a 4 iron to 5 feet and with an 8 iron I leave myself with a 20 foot putt. Guess what? You end up winning the hole. I know your type. I won't be fooled by the distance gap. Won't let my guard down against you, old friend. :drinks:

 

40 yds??????????? What, did you start aiming at CART PATHS? :bb:

[PurePursuit]

Could it be that the secret was simply he found a way whether physical or mental, to release the club so the clubface stayed perpendicular to the plane? I believe the TGM guys call it an angled hinge release. To me the 9-3 drill helps ingrain this type of release, my theory is not as fun as the stuff you guys are kicking around, but I think it is on the right track, so how did he do it? IMHO I think that he kept his upper arms connected to his upper chest as he rotated through impact and beyond, the clubface stayed perpenducular to the plane or almost square/in-line with his spine through impact, if neither arm disconnects from the chest till 3 oclock then the clubface should never over rotate and cause the ducking hook he was afraid of, I think the Life magazine secrect was the first part of this and keeping the upper arms glued to the chest is the second part. JMO.

 

BTW, I think that you all and Sevam are really reaching if you overthink the "Secrets in the Dirt" Statement by thinking it means anything more than hitting a lot of shots at the driving range, or practice area. I will add that Hogan had a lot of other really great fundamentals, a very powerful and athletic swing, and has he stated in Life magazine, the secret would only help a good golfer and would probably ruin a bad one. His secret took a struggleing tour level player, who was probably already one of the best 100 players in the world and made him a legend, it didnt take a 12 handicapper and make him a legend.

 

I am no golf pro, just a 5-6 capper, but I have been paying attention to a lot of these threads over the last seveal years, and to me this seems to be as close to the answer as i can fathom. When it comes down to it the purpose of the secret had to be how did he keep the clubface square on an inside to square to inside path with his great lag and speed, I think if you are looking anywhere else it is just window dressing.

 

Love to hear your thoughts guys.......

 

Completely agree with this one! So if the secret doesn't give you similar impact positions..it can't be it.

[martinez]

When it comes down to it the purpose of the secret had to be how did he keep the clubface square on an inside to square to inside path with his great lag and speed, I think if you are looking anywhere else it is just window dressing.

 

Love to hear your thoughts guys.......

The only reason I care to know all I can about that action is this part of his swing intrigues me. I do my best to teach people that speed and lag part.....it is incredible how he does that with the energy he has stored. I think Magnums idea of a number of epiphanies is spot on. I think one lead down the path to the next one.....there is no good knowing the 5th one because it wont make sense unless you have done the work yourself to get there. That's the secret in the dirt for me. It's a path to get to mastery and there's no shortcuts to the summit, people (like SF maybe) can get you to base camp healthy and with enough oxygen to go the journey.

[magnum184]

magnum,

Having posted the images yourself and suggesting that we all draw our own conclusions it might be

helpful if you gave some account of your own conclusions regarding these images. The one thing I'll add here

is this, Jimmy Ballard, who was mentored by Byrd would say it something like this in regard to the left elbow

for a right handed golfer.... "if the left elbow's down and the right hip is up the club will square up every trip".

dts

 

P.S. My distraction with the images you posted is simply this. Nearly all accounts ever written regarding this

image angle will tell it that the elbow of the trailing arm leads the hand. It does not. MVSO

 

 

I don't really have an opinion yet. Just thought it was interesting and haven't thought it through enough yet. Who will ever know?

 

Not quite sure I understand the Ballard quote. I don't know much about Ballard to be honest.

 

Elbow of the trailing arm lead the hand??????? Nope. Simply observation. Not something to force. Hogan didn't force it. Those batters aren't forcing it. People who say that are looking in the wrong spots. They are jumping to conclusions without understanding the real motor. It's all pivot and rotation and the rest is just along for the ride and reacting. You can't put yourself in those positions. They have to happen by result. Now, during that ride, how everything is seated before the ride starts is the ticket. How's that for being cryptic? LOL. :lol:

[PurePursuit]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

[Dariusz J.]

When it comes down to it the purpose of the secret had to be how did he keep the clubface square on an inside to square to inside path with his great lag and speed, I think if you are looking anywhere else it is just window dressing.

 

Love to hear your thoughts guys.......

 

Well, keeping the clubhead perpendicular to the arc in the whole impact zone is surely a necessary condition for a consistent ballstriking; moreover, when the shaft plane is perpendicular to the spine of the turning body as long as possible it is even better. Associate it with the early elbow plane that Mr.Hogan beautifully performed after 1946. A biomechanic perfection in each detail.

 

Cheers

[downtoscratch]

martinez,

You and I have exchanged ideas and we both agree to disagree... at least for now,

on a few viewpoints. I was truly just responding here publicly to what your comments were

this day on this thread. The ball player in the video had such a blocked hold-off IMO as to not represent the point I thought you were making about his turn-over being akin to that of most golfers, the exception being, IYO, Hogan. I just thought it was a poor example of either one. His cross-over was very late in coming and hands/wrists generated when it did. A flip for us golfers. The cross-over I would think you had in mind would be earlier and more arm over arm.

No, I'm not trying to lead you or anyone else along. I do have my opinions and they generally differ from most offered here so far as pertains to the "uniqueness" factor in Hogan's swing. As for the idea of swinging with no torque that's another area where I think I follow your point but just not as stated. Your swing pictures on your own thread and long ago here show such a shaft bowing that it's going to be a hard sell to claim there's no torque in your swing much less Hogan's! Old grizzled guru Joe Norwood, long since passed, said

"the shaft is still in a good golf swing". What? Took a while to track down Joe's point that time too. What he was saying then and what I think you are saying now is that Hogan kept the club in the center of the swing arc.......... no flipping or a term I learned here for the first time no shaft inversion as is often used in describing a DTL release. On this level of understanding, I agree whole-heartedly. But no torque wouldn't work for me as a way to say it. dts

[magnum184]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

 

Good points. The rotation, leverage, and the way the arms, hands, and finally the bat follow because of the pivot are the most interesting to me. Interesting how those guys SHALLOW the bat, wouldn't you say? That's not force. That's reaction. That, to me, is a free ride. To some degree.

[dlygrisse]

When it comes down to it the purpose of the secret had to be how did he keep the clubface square on an inside to square to inside path with his great lag and speed, I think if you are looking anywhere else it is just window dressing.

 

Love to hear your thoughts guys.......

 

Well, keeping the clubhead perpendicular to the arc in the whole impact zone is surely a necessary condition for a consistent ballstriking; moreover, when the shaft plane is perpendicular to the spine of the turning body as long as possible it is even better. Associate it with the early elbow plane that Mr.Hogan beautifully performed after 1946. A biomechanic perfection in each detail.

 

Cheers

My point is I think he consciencely kept his upper arms glued to his upper chest through the 3 oclock position, this kept his right arm from rolling over his left, kept the face square, gave him a lot of #4 PA in TGM speak, and allowed him to rotate hard left while keeping the club on plane without slinging down the line. This to me is a good players "secret" that allows him, and others who do the same, to control the club with out fear of duck hooking and controling the ball, assuming of course you put in the hard work and pracitce to perfect it as Hogan did.

[downtoscratch]

magnum said........... Interesting how those guys SHALLOW the bat, wouldn't you say? That's not force. That's reaction. That, to me, is a free ride. To some degree.

 

That to me is THE free ride, no question. dts