Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[hoganfan924]

Baseball, golf..... let's hear it from the Babe himself, who was an avid golfer and mentor to Sam Byrd.

 

 

Hmmm, indeed.

 

Enjoy!

[JD3]

magnum,

Having posted the images yourself and suggesting that we all draw our own conclusions it might be

helpful if you gave some account of your own conclusions regarding these images. The one thing I'll add here

is this, Jimmy Ballard, who was mentored by Byrd would say it something like this in regard to the left elbow

for a right handed golfer.... "if the left elbow's down and the right hip is up the club will square up every trip".

dts

 

P.S. My distraction with the images you posted is simply this. Nearly all accounts ever written regarding this

image angle will tell it that the elbow of the trailing arm leads the hand. It does not. MVSO

 

 

I don't really have an opinion yet. Just thought it was interesting and haven't thought it through enough yet. Who will ever know?

 

Not quite sure I understand the Ballard quote. I don't know much about Ballard to be honest.

 

Elbow of the trailing arm lead the hand??????? Nope. Simply observation. Not something to force. Hogan didn't force it. Those batters aren't forcing it. People who say that are looking in the wrong spots. They are jumping to conclusions without understanding the real motor. It's all pivot and rotation and the rest is just along for the ride and reacting. You can't put yourself in those positions. They have to happen by result. Now, during that ride, how everything is seated before the ride starts is the ticket. How's that for being cryptic? LOL. :lol:

At what point do the hands &/or arms become active in the downswing? Surely Hogan's hands weren't purely reactive into impact or he wouldn't have made the remark about wishing he had 3 right hands.

[juansky]

The secret has been found guys, it all makes sense, the dirt was always about the baseball swing and never about Hogan himself....lol! :o That's a HUGE eye opener, we can finally put this subject to rest. :tongue:

 

Mr. Hogan was sneaky all right.

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't have any reason to believe in a SECRET and have little time for them. I've suggested before that Hogan had a few epiphanies in his day.

 

My only purpose in posting the pics of baseball swings was my own fascination about how the baseball swing MIGHT have influenced Hogan. I was just curious as to what was going through his mind and what he liked about it and what he discarded. In general, I can't help but see quite a few significant characteristics. Does that make them justifiable? No. Coincidence? Maybe. Regardless, I know he spoke about baseball a few times (Seitz, 5 Lessons), was close with Sam Byrd, and apparently spent some time with Ted Williams. It would be interesting to know if anything rubbed off on him. It would be interesting to know the deductions made if he did allow the baseball swing to inspire him.

 

 

Speaking of Secrets...I picked up one of my own today...WoooWeeeee Babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!! Another 40 yards and I can finally SEE your ball way up there in the fairway Magnum...LOL

 

I think you forgot that you were hitting down wind and playing from the front tees. ;)

 

So tell us your secret to an x-tra 40 yds fatsky?

[downtoscratch]

Fantastic video HF! dts

[asprin02]

Could it be that the secret was simply he found a way whether physical or mental, to release the club so the clubface stayed perpendicular to the plane? I believe the TGM guys call it an angled hinge release. To me the 9-3 drill helps ingrain this type of release, my theory is not as fun as the stuff you guys are kicking around, but I think it is on the right track, so how did he do it? IMHO I think that he kept his upper arms connected to his upper chest as he rotated through impact and beyond, the clubface stayed perpenducular to the plane or almost square/in-line with his spine through impact, if neither arm disconnects from the chest till 3 oclock then the clubface should never over rotate and cause the ducking hook he was afraid of, I think the Life magazine secrect was the first part of this and keeping the upper arms glued to the chest is the second part. JMO.

 

I agree with you that this is a part of his swing. I have been trying to stay more connected the past few weeks during my practice. Not to be a bible beater, but Hogan states this in his book, he keeps his upper arms connected to the sides of his chest. He said you would have to apply a considerable amount of force to pull them apart.

 

I also agree with Magnum on the pivot and rotation comments. Hogan says the hips start the downswing and pull the arms/hands down to hip level. There shouldn't be any active swing of the arms to get them there, just let them get the free ride.

[downtoscratch]

dlygrisse said............... I will add that Hogan had a lot of other really great fundamentals

 

According to Bennett and Plummer of S&T fame there's a misconception about what really constitutes

golf's fundamentals. They are saying that with the great variety of grips, stances etc. exhibited by the

best players in the game these can hardly be classed as fundamentals. Rather they point to the single

most important "fundamental" as being a consistent bottom of the arc being in front of the golf ball. dts

[ej002]

Could it be that the secret was simply he found a way whether physical or mental, to release the club so the clubface stayed perpendicular to the plane? I believe the TGM guys call it an angled hinge release. To me the 9-3 drill helps ingrain this type of release, my theory is not as fun as the stuff you guys are kicking around, but I think it is on the right track, so how did he do it? IMHO I think that he kept his upper arms connected to his upper chest as he rotated through impact and beyond, the clubface stayed perpenducular to the plane or almost square/in-line with his spine through impact, if neither arm disconnects from the chest till 3 oclock then the clubface should never over rotate and cause the ducking hook he was afraid of, I think the Life magazine secrect was the first part of this and keeping the upper arms glued to the chest is the second part. JMO.

 

I agree with you that this is a part of his swing. I have been trying to stay more connected the past few weeks during my practice. Not to be a bible beater, but Hogan states this in his book, he keeps his upper arms connected to the sides of his chest. He said you would have to apply a considerable amount of force to pull them apart.

 

I also agree with Magnum on the pivot and rotation comments. Hogan says the hips start the downswing and pull the arms/hands down to hip level. There shouldn't be any active swing of the arms to get them there, just let them get the free ride.

 

 

I think one has to be careful, you cant be swinging any wet noodle arms either. There is a definite "driving of the hands" in a baseball swing, they are not just rotating their hips, (maybe soem of that has to do with the movement of the ball), but I still have to believe that there is some arms involved in golf too- or else they would get left behind... I guess it is a fine line?

[downtoscratch]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

Accept it or reject it.. your choice.. but golf more off the right leg than many here believe is at

the heart of Mike Maves beliefs and I concur. The appearance of a preponderance of weight

displaced to the left early in transition is an accepted reference point whenever this debate

arises. Fact or fiction. Many many years ago as chronicled in Joe Novak's book Golf Can Be An Easy Game the issue of weight transference was taken up by a a major university and they

measured the best players of the day. Their findings........... more weight registered on the right side at impact then on the left. Novak was somewhat shocked at these findings so much

so that he went to work to offer an explanation that he at least could live with. Still the scales

weren't impacted by Joe's explanation. Many years later Golf Digest revisited this same testing

an surprise, surprise................. same results! Oh well, what's science got to do with it anyway! dts

[magnum184]

I think one has to be careful, you cant be swinging any wet noodle arms either. There is a definite "driving of the hands" in a baseball swing, they are not just rotating their hips, (maybe soem of that has to do with the movement of the ball), but I still have to believe that there is some arms involved in golf too- or else they would get left behind... I guess it is a fine line?

 

 

Good points. No wet noodles.

[dlygrisse]

dlygrisse said............... I will add that Hogan had a lot of other really great fundamentals

 

According to Bennett and Plummer of S&T fame there's a misconception about what really constitutes

golf's fundamentals. They are saying that with the great variety of grips, stances etc. exhibited by the

best players in the game these can hardly be classed as fundamentals. Rather they point to the single

most important "fundamental" as being a consistent bottom of the arc being in front of the golf ball. dts

 

 

Fundamentals can be different from person to person IMO, a fundamentally sound grip can be weak, nuetral or strong IMO. A fundamentally sound stance can be square, open or closed, IMO. I guess what is the definition of Fundamental? TGM uses the work imperative to describe things all good swings have in common, I beleive they are, off the top of my head, flat left wrist, straight plane line, and lag pressure. That means all good ball strikers whether it be Mickelson or Hogan, they are both tour level world class players, and they both exhibit these imperitives, and they both make consistent solid contact with the ball and with on plane power. I actually thing I will start a new topic along these lines, but I digress.....we should probably define what a "fundamental" is before we continue the debate or the semantics will be all out of whack. (please dont think I am comparing phils swing to hogans in terms of consistancy and ball striking prowess, however they both are world class players who have good alignments at impact, it is just that Hogan found a way to do it 99/100 instead of 75/100)

[rok78]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

Accept it or reject it.. your choice.. but golf more off the right leg than many here believe is at

the heart of Mike Maves beliefs and I concur. The appearance of a preponderance of weight

displaced to the left early in transition is an accepted reference point whenever this debate

arises. Fact or fiction. Many many years ago as chronicled in Joe Novak's book Golf Can Be An Easy Game the issue of weight transference was taken up by a a major university and they

measured the best players of the day. Their findings........... more weight registered on the right side at impact then on the left. Novak was somewhat shocked at these findings so much

so that he went to work to offer an explanation that he at least could live with. Still the scales

weren't impacted by Joe's explanation. Many years later Golf Digest revisited this same testing

an surprise, surprise................. same results! Oh well, what's science got to do with it anyway! dts

 

There's more updated stuff since then that say different, using actual force plates, not scales. If I can find it again, I'll post it, but for professional golfers, the weight is decidedly on the lead foot at impact.

[JD3]

I think one has to be careful, you cant be swinging any wet noodle arms either. There is a definite "driving of the hands" in a baseball swing, they are not just rotating their hips, (maybe soem of that has to do with the movement of the ball), but I still have to believe that there is some arms involved in golf too- or else they would get left behind... I guess it is a fine line?

 

 

Good points. No wet noodles.

At what point do the hands &/or arms become active in the downswing? Surely Hogan's hands weren't purely reactive into impact or he wouldn't have made the remark about wishing he had 3 right hands.

[PurePursuit]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

 

Good points. The rotation, leverage, and the way the arms, hands, and finally the bat follow because of the pivot are the most interesting to me. Interesting how those guys SHALLOW the bat, wouldn't you say? That's not force. That's reaction. That, to me, is a free ride. To some degree.

 

What shallows out the bat is the step in. Lateral drive in anticipation for the pitch, shallows the bat. Thats my guess.

[PurePursuit]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

Accept it or reject it.. your choice.. but golf more off the right leg than many here believe is at

the heart of Mike Maves beliefs and I concur. The appearance of a preponderance of weight

displaced to the left early in transition is an accepted reference point whenever this debate

arises. Fact or fiction. Many many years ago as chronicled in Joe Novak's book Golf Can Be An Easy Game the issue of weight transference was taken up by a a major university and they

measured the best players of the day. Their findings........... more weight registered on the right side at impact then on the left. Novak was somewhat shocked at these findings so much

so that he went to work to offer an explanation that he at least could live with. Still the scales

weren't impacted by Joe's explanation. Many years later Golf Digest revisited this same testing

an surprise, surprise................. same results! Oh well, what's science got to do with it anyway! dts

 

There's more updated stuff since then that say different, using actual force plates, not scales. If I can find it again, I'll post it, but for professional golfers, the weight is decidedly on the lead foot at impact.

 

 

I remember seeing it as well. Lets say your right though, more weight is on the right then left at impact (don't think thats true). It doesn't negate the fact that more weight is on the rear leg of a baseball player then golfer during the moment of truth, and thats due to the level the ball is struck. BTW DTS what do you feel your right foot doing when you make a backswing into a secure right knee/leg?

[downtoscratch]

It's a trick question right? Torquing clockwise would seem to be the right answer to me. dts

[downtoscratch]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

Accept it or reject it.. your choice.. but golf more off the right leg than many here believe is at

the heart of Mike Maves beliefs and I concur. The appearance of a preponderance of weight

displaced to the left early in transition is an accepted reference point whenever this debate

arises. Fact or fiction. Many many years ago as chronicled in Joe Novak's book Golf Can Be An Easy Game the issue of weight transference was taken up by a a major university and they

measured the best players of the day. Their findings........... more weight registered on the right side at impact then on the left. Novak was somewhat shocked at these findings so much

so that he went to work to offer an explanation that he at least could live with. Still the scales

weren't impacted by Joe's explanation. Many years later Golf Digest revisited this same testing

an surprise, surprise................. same results! Oh well, what's science got to do with it anyway! dts

 

There's more updated stuff since then that say different, using actual force plates, not scales. If I can find it again, I'll post it, but for professional golfers, the weight is decidedly on the lead foot at impact.

 

Love to see that when you locate it. Thanks, dts

[PurePursuit]

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr...-9HIZM#PPA40,M1

 

Not much of a secret but some might find this of interest. ;)

[PurePursuit]

No trick my friend. No secret.. You are one hundred percent correct. If you properly turn into your right side and a braced right leg you feel your right foot torquing clockwise or screwing into the ground. You could set it at address to help you feel it...Seems like an old thing to me..spiced up a bit.

[downtoscratch]

Here's a trick question for you. The old Scottish pros coined the phrase "hit into (or against) a firm left

side". What were you hitting into the left side with??? dts

[dlygrisse]

Here's a trick question for you. The old Scottish pros coined the phrase "hit into (or against) a firm left

side". What were you hitting into the left side with??? dts

 

 

Sounds similar to snapping the kinetic chain theories, your mass unloads into the left post and everyting begins to " snap" in sequence from the ground up till the clubhead whips through and hits the ball with all the power of the kinetic chain behind it. Stored up power is released, with it beig released finally through the hands, shaft then club.

[PurePursuit]

BTW DTS, the answer to the weight question is in that e-book review. Hopefully i'm not breaking any rules by posting it..if so delete mods. My question wasn't a trick question...I guess i'll try to entertain yours since I have a little time on my hands at the moment. A firm left side could be the feeling used to describe having your left side almost up against a wall at impact. Not sure though. I'll have to think about that one.

[eightiron]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

Accept it or reject it.. your choice.. but golf more off the right leg than many here believe is at

the heart of Mike Maves beliefs and I concur. The appearance of a preponderance of weight

displaced to the left early in transition is an accepted reference point whenever this debate

arises. Fact or fiction. Many many years ago as chronicled in Joe Novak's book Golf Can Be An Easy Game the issue of weight transference was taken up by a a major university and they

measured the best players of the day. Their findings........... more weight registered on the right side at impact then on the left. Novak was somewhat shocked at these findings so much

so that he went to work to offer an explanation that he at least could live with. Still the scales

weren't impacted by Joe's explanation. Many years later Golf Digest revisited this same testing

an surprise, surprise................. same results! Oh well, what's science got to do with it anyway! dts

 

I reject your notion that the feet being an active factor involved in weight staying on the right side. Simply put of course there is weight there from the head and parts of the body ,arms etc etc being behind the ball at impact..called the need to have some 2nd tilt ( axis tilt).

Mr Hogan creates his 2nd Tilt very late which you and other proponents dont seem to understand...the belt buckle and how mr Hogan gets it there seems to provide the answers

[hoganfan924]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

Accept it or reject it.. your choice.. but golf more off the right leg than many here believe is at

the heart of Mike Maves beliefs and I concur. The appearance of a preponderance of weight

displaced to the left early in transition is an accepted reference point whenever this debate

arises. Fact or fiction. Many many years ago as chronicled in Joe Novak's book Golf Can Be An Easy Game the issue of weight transference was taken up by a a major university and they

measured the best players of the day. Their findings........... more weight registered on the right side at impact then on the left. Novak was somewhat shocked at these findings so much

so that he went to work to offer an explanation that he at least could live with. Still the scales

weren't impacted by Joe's explanation. Many years later Golf Digest revisited this same testing

an surprise, surprise................. same results! Oh well, what's science got to do with it anyway! dts

 

Ever step on a Toledo scale? I have. The lag time for the needle to go to your weight is probably as long (or longer) than your downswing to impact. That research was highly flawed (at least the one done by GD). You need high frequency strain gauges (an electronic force plate) to really measure this accurately. I know that work has been done before.

[downtoscratch]

HF,

Not that I'd doubt you but can you document that it was highly flawed? Golf Digest's

credibility is somewhat being called into account by this claim. dts

[asprin02]

I think one has to be careful, you cant be swinging any wet noodle arms either. There is a definite "driving of the hands" in a baseball swing, they are not just rotating their hips, (maybe soem of that has to do with the movement of the ball), but I still have to believe that there is some arms involved in golf too- or else they would get left behind... I guess it is a fine line?

 

 

Good points. No wet noodles.

At what point do the hands &/or arms become active in the downswing? Surely Hogan's hands weren't purely reactive into impact or he wouldn't have made the remark about wishing he had 3 right hands.

 

 

Yeah good thing to point that out, I hope nobody just takes this stuff verbatim, as it is missing the details (which we don't all have, or we wouldn't have this thread).... What I do is use these concepts to fill in imagery in my mind while I watch Hogan swing. I use video software to obsessively watch golf footage in slow motion. I then try it out on the range to see if it has any worth.

 

jduncanm3,

I'm sure it is heavily debatable. I'll take a bite at this... As I like to quote Hogan, he warns us to "keep any conscious hand action out of the swing. The correct swing is founded on chain action..."

 

He does touch on the hands don't do anything until about hip level, but of course this is where he leaves it to you to figure out what/how they do anything.

 

--------

 

I tried to get the best down the line frames I could as I am rushing this.

 

Before Impact

 

 

At Impact

 

 

This is not the best quality, but I'd say if anything, somewhere in between these frames he might really trying to smack the ball, which could involve arms/hands participation. Btw, he does warn to hit the ball as hard as with the left hand as with the right hand.

[hoganfan924]

HF,

Not that I'd doubt you but can you document that it was highly flawed? Golf Digest's

credibility is somewhat being called into account by this claim. dts

 

I think I made my case in the above post. To reiterate, you cannot accurately measure rapid changes in forces using a mechanical scale, which is what a Toledo scale is. That's what GD did. That's why it is highly flawed.

[dminn23]

HF,

Not that I'd doubt you but can you document that it was highly flawed? Golf Digest's

credibility is somewhat being called into account by this claim. dts

 

 

Technology, time, and the drive for answers has proved a lot of people's credibility wrong. Remember, the earth was flat at one time.

 

I myself believe that good players are very much into their left leg at impact with their weight. That being said, I think the test just needs to be done on modern technology that HF was describing. His understanding of that stuff is way over my head though. I'm a systems engineer, he is a REAL engineer if I remember correctly.

[PurePursuit]

Guys. Look at the link to the e-book I posted. The new scales show more weight is on the lead foot at impact..The other two studies from a looong time ago were wrong due to improper measuring devices. A whole lot of info about the foot torquing as well in that study. take the time to read it DTS.

[rok78]

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr...-9HIZM#PPA40,M1

 

Not much of a secret but some might find this of interest. ;)

 

That's not the exact study I saw, but it's similar in results. The most interesting thing to me is that for better players the MOST pressure on the left foot during the downswing is halfway down. Not exactly where you would instinctively think it would be. It's kind of mentioned in that study, but there's also an unweighting of the feet at impact, it happens more for faster swingers than slower ones (think Corey Pavin vs Jamie Sadlowski).

 

Good stuff, but shows that the GD article was not the best measure.

[JD3]

I think one has to be careful, you cant be swinging any wet noodle arms either. There is a definite "driving of the hands" in a baseball swing, they are not just rotating their hips, (maybe soem of that has to do with the movement of the ball), but I still have to believe that there is some arms involved in golf too- or else they would get left behind... I guess it is a fine line?

 

 

Good points. No wet noodles.

At what point do the hands &/or arms become active in the downswing? Surely Hogan's hands weren't purely reactive into impact or he wouldn't have made the remark about wishing he had 3 right hands.

 

 

Yeah good thing to point that out, I hope nobody just takes this stuff verbatim, as it is missing the details (which we don't all have, or we wouldn't have this thread).... What I do is use these concepts to fill in imagery in my mind while I watch Hogan swing. I use video software to obsessively watch golf footage in slow motion. I then try it out on the range to see if it has any worth.

 

jduncanm3,

I'm sure it is heavily debatable. I'll take a bite at this... As I like to quote Hogan, he warns us to "keep any conscious hand action out of the swing. The correct swing is founded on chain action..."

 

He does touch on the hands don't do anything until about hip level, but of course this is where he leaves it to you to figure out what/how they do anything.

 

--------

 

I tried to get the best down the line frames I could as I am rushing this.

 

Before Impact

 

 

At Impact

 

 

This is not the best quality, but I'd say if anything, somewhere in between these frames he might really trying to smack the ball, which could involve arms/hands participation. Btw, he does warn to hit the ball as hard as with the left hand as with the right hand.

I guess that makes sense. As in a pitcher, the move toward the plate is very much with feet planting/pressing and body rotation ... moving the arms at that point would be disastrous, as they would cause the body to stall and arms to throw down in the dirt. The difference for a pitcher is that the throwing hand goes from cupped to bowed during the release. The analogous throwing hand in golf (i.e. right) for Hogan did the opposite, going from bowed to cupped. Or rather just remained cupped, depending on where one wants to define "release" begins.