Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1849891' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:37 AM'][...]

My feeling is that the COA system is accurate in almost every case. It's head and shoulders above any other attempt to document golf equipment. But there are a few old cases where mystery exist.[/quote]

Therein lies the problem that you are missing. If it is not accurate for even one [i]known[/i] item, how can you assume it is accurate for any item? You can't be sure it is accurate because Scotty issues COA's from memory rather than simply saying "I'm not sure." There are other inconsistencies in the system including what appears to be preferential treatment.

Why not simply issue COA's going forward? Why not do it for free as putters leave the Studio?
[quote]CPSOX summed it up perfectly for me:
[i]"The putters were made/stamped at a time when

A. They weren't worth a damn thing except to Scotty and his family
B. Bob and Scotty were working together and it's very likely that extra heads were normal in a production cycle
C. "collectable" putters and especially handstamped putters weren't nearly as important and/or documented as they are today

Trying to contextualize something that was made 15 years ago before there was ever a "collectable" market is a giant waste of time. On both sides of the coin. Other Cameron "tour" putters at the time were stamped inconsistently as well and it's no surprise that these are either. I don't believe for a second that they were initially ever meant to be found in private collections.

The entire truth is known by 2 people and I admire that the mudslinging at their level is absolute zero."

[/i][/quote]
I agree with CPSOX. So why is Scotty issuing the COA's for those putters? Money? Hubris? Falsely inflating the collectable market? Helping out friends?

I don't have a horse in this race, aside from an 009 and Button Back Scotty's putters don't interest me and I'll never be a big time collector, but I am curious.

[biscuity]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1849913' date='Jul 28 2009, 09:54 PM']Let's get this right, shall we. Cameron told people to relinquish their positions as moderators at TCC while the original owner still controlled the site. Some people resigned instead of going against the Cameron line. Others gave up their ties to Cameron for the sake of friendship. Who am I going to respect? Someone who chose a product or someone who chose friendship? Easy call for me.

On the other side of the token, who would even think of dictating to people about something like that? To me it is just another case and point of a person who wants to control every aspect of something. "Strong arming" someone into a position is not how I see a person conduct themselves in business (or anywhere for-that-matter) with integrity.

You can justify this any way you wish but this is a real disingenuous way of conducting themselves in life. I believe others have seen some of the real Cameron since the layers are being removed. How's the view?[/quote]

I view it as a choice between your "Cameron friends" and your "Puttertalk friends". Those guys were already showing signs that they couldn't be trusted with the keys to the Cameron forum. Doug Hardman appears to be a great guy with good intentions, but he has lost control of the Scotty Cameron section of Puttertalk. It looks to me like he's too busy with his other forums. Honestly, based on what I've seen of foregasim, I wouldn't trust him to the keys to [b]any[/b] forum. Moderators need to be held to a higher standard than regular guests. As a moderator you can't go off half cocked calling things "Complete BS" and attacking guests. Not with your corporate partner watching. Not when you have customers who want to enjoy their experiences on a Cameron forum. Fights like this are simply not acceptible on a niche collector forum.

The view looks fine to me. I'm more likely to buy my first retail Cameron than ever. I doubt I will ever buy a Bettinardi putter after this mess.

[biscuity]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1849949' date='Jul 28 2009, 10:21 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1849891' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:37 AM'][...]

My feeling is that the COA system is accurate in almost every case. It's head and shoulders above any other attempt to document golf equipment. But there are a few old cases where mystery exist.[/quote]

Therein lies the problem that you are missing. If it is not accurate for even one [i]known[/i] item, how can you assume it is accurate for any item? You can't be sure it is accurate because Scotty issues COA's from memory rather than simply saying "I'm not sure." There are other inconsistencies in the system including what appears to be preferential treatment.
[/quote]

There's a term for that: [b]Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.[/b]

[quote]Why not simply issue COA's going forward? Why not do it for free as putters leave the Studio?[/quote]

COA's have a cost associated with them. Multiply that cost times 200,000 per year and it ends up being a full time salary. I would guess that maybe 5% of the putter owners care about a COA for their putter. For the few people that want a COA, Scotty makes it available for $65. You get a document with photo, a listing with photo on his web page, and it authenticates your putter in case you ever want/need to sell it. Or, he could be like all of the other manufacturers and offer nothing at all. I agree with his decision to use the $65 voluntary/optional system.

[quote]CPSOX summed it up perfectly for me:
[i]"The putters were made/stamped at a time when

A. They weren't worth a damn thing except to Scotty and his family
B. Bob and Scotty were working together and it's very likely that extra heads were normal in a production cycle
C. "collectable" putters and especially handstamped putters weren't nearly as important and/or documented as they are today

Trying to contextualize something that was made 15 years ago before there was ever a "collectable" market is a giant waste of time. On both sides of the coin. Other Cameron "tour" putters at the time were stamped inconsistently as well and it's no surprise that these are either. I don't believe for a second that they were initially ever meant to be found in private collections.

The entire truth is known by 2 people and I admire that the mudslinging at their level is absolute zero."

[/i]
I agree with CPSOX. So why is Scotty issuing the COA's for those putters? Money? Hubris? Falsely inflating the collectable market? Helping out friends?

I don't have a horse in this race, aside from an 009 and Button Back Scotty's putters don't interest me and I'll never be a big time collector, but I am curious.[/quote]

He issues COA's when people want them. It's viewed as an asset for most Cameron collectors. It's one factor (out of many) that has made Scotty the clear leader of the machined putter & collectible market. As an American, I give credit to a guy that went from making putters in his garage to being a successful businessman. He's an American success story, he's building his putters in America. I support that.

[xxio]

DASS and a** are trademarked? If true thank you for the information. Maybe you should start a thread on the perils of owning a Bettinardi or a Byron so that the "haters" (term used on the critics in this thread)of those brands can show up and have a venue for their displeasure. Hopefully you can find enough inconsistencies and experiences to match 37 pages and quite a few views.



So if there are mistakes when do you suggest we stop/start believing the COA system. On putters before 1995, before 1999, around July 14, 2009? I would be great if that webmaster would indicate that "anything before xxx date, I'm not really 100% sure but I'll issue a COA anyway. Lets just base the grade solely on the grip and shaft."



Good for you that you are smart enough not to register your own OTR putters. Unfortunately people believe in the system enough that they will custom their OTR and have it issued a COA. I would hope all Cameron fans are as discerning as you unfortunately they have to believe in the COA system because it does use the word "authenticity" so if a putter that has 1/5 stamped on it shows up there with an A. People have to believe is at authentic as being a 1/5.

8 handmades WOW. Do you have COAs for all of them? Those putters are great pieces of history. Hopefully Cameron's memory was crystal clear the day he issued your COAs or hopefully the putters were made and documented after he started losing the memory.

BTW anyone have a link to a Mini with a COA. I would be interested to read what it says.

[xxio]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1849952' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:24 PM']Honestly, based on what I've seen of foregasim, I wouldn't trust him to the keys to [b]any[/b] forum. Moderators need to be held to a higher standard than regular guests. As a moderator you can't go off half cocked calling things "Complete BS" and attacking guests. Not with your corporate partner watching. Not when you have customers who want to enjoy their experiences on a Cameron forum. Fights like this are simply not acceptible on a niche collector forum.

The view looks fine to me. I'm more likely to buy my first retail Cameron than ever. I doubt I will ever buy a Bettinardi putter after this mess.[/quote]


Congratulations to Forgasim. When did you get promoted to moderator/marshal of Golfwrx? I don't see it under your userID yet though.

What does this have to do with Bettinardi again? Oh ok after DB/Machine, it was Byron, now Bettinardi (didn't you already go through him earlier?) Who else are you going to throw under the bus in this Cameron thread next? Great way to justify a non-purchase though.

So now you bring the OEM pressure of Titleist into the picture? I'm sure if something libelous has been or will be mentioned Titleist will protect their turf.

[xxio]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1849965' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:36 PM']As an American, I give credit to a guy that went from making putters in his garage to being a successful businessman. He's an American success story, he's building his putters in America. I support that.[/quote]


There are numerous success stories out there. Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, even Bernie Maddoff was a success story up to 18 months ago. Being a "success" can be measured in many different ways. No one doubts that Cameron has made a lot of money, unfortunately his style seems to have made a lot of enemies. I guess it does go back to that PT-TCC split. Some people wanted to try to be successful and have friends, some would just rather be successful.

I hope your friends don't say you are no longer successful because you now want to buy an OTR Cameron. You shouldve bought one earlier some of they are quite good.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1849965' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:36 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1849949' date='Jul 28 2009, 10:21 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1849891' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:37 AM'][...]

My feeling is that the COA system is accurate in almost every case. It's head and shoulders above any other attempt to document golf equipment. But there are a few old cases where mystery exist.[/quote]

Therein lies the problem that you are missing. If it is not accurate for even one [i]known[/i] item, how can you assume it is accurate for any item? You can't be sure it is accurate because Scotty issues COA's from memory rather than simply saying "I'm not sure." There are other inconsistencies in the system including what appears to be preferential treatment.
[/quote]

There's a term for that: [b]Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.[/b][/quote]

It has everything to do with integrity. If Scotty did the right thing he simply would not issue COA's from memory or give preferential treatment to certain friends and collectors.

[quote][quote]Why not simply issue COA's going forward? Why not do it for free as putters leave the Studio?[/quote]

COA's have a cost associated with them. Multiply that cost times 200,000 per year and it ends up being a full time salary. I would guess that maybe 5% of the putter owners care about a COA for their putter. For the few people that want a COA, Scotty makes it available for $65. You get a document with photo, a listing with photo on his web page, and it authenticates your putter in case you ever want/need to sell it. Or, he could be like all of the other manufacturers and offer nothing at all. I agree with his decision to use the $65 voluntary/optional system.[/quote]

So, 200,000 putters run through the Studio a year? I am talking about the 5% where it is important. All of the "Prototypes" and "Tour" putters as well as special limited edition putters could easily be done, and those buyers wouldn't mind spending the extra $8-$10 it actually costs to produce the documents and photos.

And once again, if the documents can't be trusted, what good are they when you buy or sell a putter? Even if 99% are accurate, unless you know which putters make up the 1% you never know if that is the one you are about to spend big bucks on!

Did you ever stop to consider that other putter makers aren't doing it because they value integrity over dollars and realize that Scotty's system is fatally flawed? One of them will come up with a better system, which does not involve a cost to the buyer and that is accurate for the putters in their system. Sooner or later.

[quote][quote]CPSOX summed it up perfectly for me:
[i]"The putters were made/stamped at a time when

A. They weren't worth a damn thing except to Scotty and his family
B. Bob and Scotty were working together and it's very likely that extra heads were normal in a production cycle
C. "collectable" putters and especially handstamped putters weren't nearly as important and/or documented as they are today

Trying to contextualize something that was made 15 years ago before there was ever a "collectable" market is a giant waste of time. On both sides of the coin. Other Cameron "tour" putters at the time were stamped inconsistently as well and it's no surprise that these are either. I don't believe for a second that they were initially ever meant to be found in private collections.

The entire truth is known by 2 people and I admire that the mudslinging at their level is absolute zero."

[/i]
I agree with CPSOX. So why is Scotty issuing the COA's for those putters? Money? Hubris? Falsely inflating the collectable market? Helping out friends?

I don't have a horse in this race, aside from an 009 and Button Back Scotty's putters don't interest me and I'll never be a big time collector, but I am curious.[/quote]

He issues COA's when people want them. It's viewed as an asset for most Cameron collectors. It's one factor (out of many) that has made Scotty the clear leader of the machined putter & collectible market. As an American, I give credit to a guy that went from making putters in his garage to being a successful businessman. He's an American success story, he's building his putters in America. I support that.
[/quote]
you mean he issues them because people will pay for them, and it matters not a whit to Scotty whether they are accurate or not. As long as buyers will pony up the $65 (or are well connected) he'll send them a COA - when he should be telling them "no" and issuing his COAs only when he is sure they are accurate.

How can it be an asset to a collector when they can't be sure it is accurate? That's the point.

Finally, money by itself makes you neither a leader nor a success. Scotty is rich. I'm not sure I'm ready to call him a leader or a success.

[biscuity]

[quote name='xxio' post='1849968' date='Jul 28 2009, 10:38 PM']DASS and a** are trademarked? If true thank you for the information. Maybe you should start a thread on the perils of owning a Bettinardi or a Byron so that the "haters" (term used on the critics in this thread)of those brands can show up and have a venue for their displeasure. Hopefully you can find enough inconsistencies and experiences to match 37 pages and quite a few views.[/quote]

They're marketing terms. I doesn't matter to me if they are trademarked or not, they're still on the web page using DASS and A.S.S to try to sell putters. You can't single out only Scotty Cameron when a lot of other manufacturers are doing the same thing.

[quote]So if there are mistakes when do you suggest we stop/start believing the COA system. On putters before 1995, before 1999, around July 14, 2009? I would be great if that webmaster would indicate that "anything before xxx date, I'm not really 100% sure but I'll issue a COA anyway. Lets just base the grade solely on the grip and shaft."[/quote]

Do what's best for you. Sounds to me like you won't be paying $65 for a COA. That's fine.

[quote]Good for you that you are smart enough not to register your own OTR putters. Unfortunately people believe in the system enough that they will custom their OTR and have it issued a COA. I would hope all Cameron fans are as discerning as you unfortunately they have to believe in the COA system because it does use the word "authenticity" so if a putter that has 1/5 stamped on it shows up there with an A. People have to believe is at authentic as being a 1/5.[/quote]

So you're looking out for the naive masses, trying to save them $65?


[quote]BTW anyone have a link to a Mini with a COA. I would be interested to read what it says.[/quote]

I believe you can find at least two Minis with COA's. Try that TCC thread link I provided and look for Kaz Nakamura. Ask around, they are there.

[biscuity]

[quote name='xxio' post='1849980' date='Jul 28 2009, 10:49 PM']Congratulations to Forgasim. When did you get promoted to moderator/marshal of Golfwrx? I don't see it under your userID yet though.

What does this have to do with Bettinardi again? Oh ok after DB/Machine, it was Byron, now Bettinardi (didn't you already go through him earlier?) Who else are you going to throw under the bus in this Cameron thread next? Great way to justify a non-purchase though.

So now you bring the OEM pressure of Titleist into the picture? I'm sure if something libelous has been or will be mentioned Titleist will protect their turf.[/quote]

Let's see, foregasim mentioned Bettinardi 4 times in his first post on this thread.

You'd have to be pretty naive to believe that Acushnet doesn't take a look at the TCC forum from time to time. I'd bet that several of their staff are members of the forum. They certainly don't want it to be a war zone like this thread.

[biscuity]

[quote name='xxio' post='1849993' date='Jul 28 2009, 10:58 PM']There are numerous success stories out there. Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, even Bernie Maddoff was a success story up to 18 months ago. Being a "success" can be measured in many different ways. No one doubts that Cameron has made a lot of money, unfortunately his style seems to have made a lot of enemies. I guess it does go back to that PT-TCC split. Some people wanted to try to be successful and have friends, some would just rather be successful.

I hope your friends don't say you are no longer successful because you now want to buy an OTR Cameron. You shouldve bought one earlier some of they are quite good.[/quote]

You're implying that Scotty doesn't have friends? I'd like to see his Christmas card list. Last time I checked he's maintained his business alliances a lot longer than a certain Brand B that you say I'm not supposed to mention here.

I have an early Cameron OTR, it's too light for my tastes and the gun blue finish is a nightmare to maintain.

[biscuity]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850000' date='Jul 28 2009, 11:11 PM']you mean he issues them because people will pay for them, and it matters not a whit to Scotty whether they are accurate or not. As long as buyers will pony up the $65 (or are well connected) he'll send them a COA - when he should be telling them "no" and issuing his COAs only when he is sure they are accurate.[/quote]

That's your interpretation, not mine.

[quote]How can it be an asset to a collector when they can't be sure it is accurate? That's the point.[/quote]

Most of them don't require that the "system" be 100% accurate. What do they care if it's "1 of 5" or "fewer than 5" for an old putter that they'll never own? Most people just want authentification on their own personal putter, they want the certificate, they want the photo on the web page.

[quote]Finally, money by itself makes you neither a leader nor a success. Scotty is rich. I'm not sure I'm ready to call him a leader or a success.[/quote]

No doubt, money isn't everything. But I dare you to read Scotty's blog and tell me that he's not enjoying his life.

Here's a great story about life:

[url="http://www.attractionmindmap.com/should-the-poor-mexican-fisherman-give-up-contentment-for-cash/"]http://www.attractionmindmap.com/should-th...tment-for-cash/[/url]

[Tim Delgado]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850000' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:11 AM']Finally, money by itself makes you neither a leader nor a success. Scotty is rich. I'm not sure I'm ready to call him a leader or a success.[/quote]



I think you would have to be pretty biased not to accept the fact that Cameron is clearly VERY successful, and is certainly one of the leaders in the putter world.

Whether you are a fan of his COA program, limited headcovers, circle T ballmarkers, etc. or not, you must give the guy credit for creating unique revenue sources from within the putter-consumer world, and creating a MONSTER revenue machine.

Tim

[xxio]

If they aren't trademark then they are what they are. Forms of stainless steel that are treated a certain way.

If something is trademarked then it is unique. The problem with "GSS" it isn't the steel that is unique/mystical it is the three letters combined that make it different from German stainless steel.

It only have retail Camerons. Each one of them has sentimental value. The others that do not have long been sold. I have no need for the COA as well, but the again the entire premise of the COA is

A U T H E N T I C I T Y.

If sometime cannot be 100% confirmed authentic yet it gets COAs does not that reflect on the flawed system. If your system has flaws any NORMAL person would correct that unless something to hide or admission of mistakes would break the system down.

You were the one to use the term [b]naive[/b]? Why would they be unsuspecting, should they be suspicious in the first place?

Bettinardi and Byron were mentioned in the Forgasim's post because of their relation to the history of the Mini. You mentioned Bettinardi, Billings, and Byron in no way related to the Mini but in how they "get free passes" have "anser copies" or you will never buy their putters.

The choosing friends and success vs success is the choice PT Mods had to make. I never mentioned SC having no friends. He has quite a few I would think, there are a lot of people out there who I'm sure have positive experiences with Scotty (Rand, Mr Vogney, etc) just as there are many with negative experiences.

Again this is about the Mini and the COA not whether Cameron has a Christmas list or not.

Biscuity,

If I had a putter stamped that was 1/5 and a COA for it I would want that stamp to be correct. If you had one and later found out there was a mistake and there are 20 of those putters please tell me you wouldn't be the least bit disappointed.

[ShoxTP]

Who the heck is this Scotty Cameron guy and why the heck is that putter smaller than the other one?! If you ask me, the smaller one should cost less because there's less of it to love.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='Tim Delgado' post='1850021' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:36 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850000' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:11 AM']Finally, money by itself makes you neither a leader nor a success. Scotty is rich. I'm not sure I'm ready to call him a leader or a success.[/quote]


I think you would have to be pretty biased not to accept the fact that Cameron is clearly VERY successful, and is certainly one of the leaders in the putter world.

Whether you are a fan of his COA program, limited headcovers, circle T ballmarkers, etc. or not, you must give the guy credit for creating unique revenue sources from within the putter-consumer world, and creating a MONSTER revenue machine.

Tim
[/quote]
I'm not sure it is biased, just a different definition of "success" and "leader."

He is a master marketeer. He has become wealthy. From the stories told here he has had ugly splits with virtually everyone he has done business with. He has taken other people's designs and tried to make them his own doing real disservice to those who came before him. He has tried to mislead the public with things like "Circa 62." He has a good idea in his COA system but it appears he has let money become more import than integrity.

Call that what you will.

As for the COA system, it may honestly be that he never intended it to be the definitive answer for collectors but more of a show piece for Cameron products that took on a life of it's own in the collecting community. But he certainly has done nothing to check that. I'll also freely admit I don't know what the registry states for the Mini(s) and I will probably never buy a putter were a COA would be important. I am honestly just curious and doing what you might call an intellectual piece - I'm thinking about things. I let you experts get back to the thread shortly.

[quote][quote](HeadonaStick @ Jul 28 2009, 11:11 PM)
you mean he issues them because people will pay for them, and it matters not a whit to Scotty whether they are accurate or not. As long as buyers will pony up the $65 (or are well connected) he'll send them a COA - when he should be telling them "no" and issuing his COAs only when he is sure they are accurate.[/quote]

That's your interpretation, not mine. [/quote]

Well, if as you say it is unreasonable to expect him to actually remember putters from 15 years ago, why is he issuing COA's with faulty history? If it isn't money, what is the motivation?

[quote][quote]
How can it be an asset to a collector when they can't be sure it is accurate? That's the point.[/quote]

Most of them don't require that the "system" be 100% accurate. What do they care if it's "1 of 5" or "fewer than 5" for an old putter that they'll never own? Most people just want authentification on their own personal putter, they want the certificate, they want the photo on the web page.[/quote]

You're talking in circles here. Either the system is important to collectors, or it isn't. If it is only for their personal putter, why do collectors always insist on a COA for expensive putters? If it is for collectors, the difference between 1 in 5, 1 in 4 and 1 in 8 may be huge.

[quote][quote]
Finally, money by itself makes you neither a leader nor a success. Scotty is rich. I'm not sure I'm ready to call him a leader or a success.[/quote]

No doubt, money isn't everything. But I dare you to read Scotty's blog and tell me that he's not enjoying his life. [/quote]

I'm not sure simply enjoying life makes you a success or a leader by itself either. [i]If[/i] Scotty has alienated as many people as it sounds like, never created a successful design of his own, borrows other putter makers designs and tries to make them his own while minimizing their contributions, I would hardly call that being a leader in the putting world and I'd question how successful he really is - although I suppose if he is happy that's all that is important.

Anyway, as I said, I'm just thinking things through. You experts can get back to your discussion and I'll continue to watch from the sidelines.

[biscuity]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850038' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:03 AM']From the stories told here he has had ugly splits with virtually everyone he has done business with.[/quote]

Congratulations foregasim, mission accomplished.

[biscuity]

[quote name='xxio' post='1850034' date='Jul 28 2009, 11:54 PM']If they aren't trademark then they are what they are. Forms of stainless steel that are treated a certain way.

If something is trademarked then it is unique. The problem with "GSS" it isn't the steel that is unique/mystical it is the three letters combined that make it different from German stainless steel.

It only have retail Camerons. Each one of them has sentimental value. The others that do not have long been sold. I have no need for the COA as well, but the again the entire premise of the COA is

A U T H E N T I C I T Y.

If sometime cannot be 100% confirmed authentic yet it gets COAs does not that reflect on the flawed system. If your system has flaws any NORMAL person would correct that unless something to hide or admission of mistakes would break the system down.

You were the one to use the term [b]naive[/b]? Why would they be unsuspecting, should they be suspicious in the first place?

Bettinardi and Byron were mentioned in the Forgasim's post because of their relation to the history of the Mini. You mentioned Bettinardi, Billings, and Byron in no way related to the Mini but in how they "get free passes" have "anser copies" or you will never buy their putters.

The choosing friends and success vs success is the choice PT Mods had to make. I never mentioned SC having no friends. He has quite a few I would think, there are a lot of people out there who I'm sure have positive experiences with Scotty (Rand, Mr Vogney, etc) just as there are many with negative experiences.

Again this is about the Mini and the COA not whether Cameron has a Christmas list or not.

Biscuity,

If I had a putter stamped that was 1/5 and a COA for it I would want that stamp to be correct. If you had one and later found out there was a mistake and there are 20 of those putters please tell me you wouldn't be the least bit disappointed.[/quote]

I think you're getting trademarks confused with patents.

Regarding the COA, if you or I were buying a $40,000 Classic Mini it would be in our best interest to contact Scotty directly and find out the real story. I think I know the answer I would get. He would say that he would personally guarantee that fewer than 5 Classic Minis would ever receive a COA. There might be more sitting around, but they are not official, nor will they ever be. And if more start showing up, Acushnet will bombard someone with a fleet of lawyers.

But we'll never be in that market. For us normal people the COA system works just fine. It doesn't document every putter ever made. It just gives official proof that the putter is authentic.

[JeffreySpicoli]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1850052' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:36 AM']Regarding the COA, if you or I were buying a $40,000 Classic Mini it would be in our best interest to contact Scotty directly and find out the real story. I think I know the answer I would get. He would say that he would personally guarantee that fewer than 5 Classic Minis would ever receive a COA. There might be more sitting around, but they are not official, nor will they ever be. And if more start showing up, Acushnet will bombard someone with a fleet of lawyers.

But we'll never be in that market. For us normal people the COA system works just fine. It doesn't document every putter ever made. It just gives official proof that the putter is authentic.[/quote]

Again, the Cameron Hagiographer appears.

All pure speculation. No facts.

[cardia10]

So if Cameron did say "I will only certify 5 minis" yet 6 or 8 are in existence, this would be another example of him giving preferential treatment. If he won't certify a mini that someone he had a falling out with has, then that 100% proves he is a liar and manipulates the market to inflate values.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='xxio' post='1849993' date='Jul 28 2009, 11:58 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1849965' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:36 PM']As an American, I give credit to a guy that went from making putters in his garage to being a successful businessman. He's an American success story, he's building his putters in America. I support that.[/quote]


There are numerous success stories out there. Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, even Bernie Maddoff was a success story up to 18 months ago. Being a "success" can be measured in many different ways. No one doubts that Cameron has made a lot of money, unfortunately his style seems to have made a lot of enemies. I guess it does go back to that PT-TCC split. Some people wanted to try to be successful and have friends, some would just rather be successful.

I hope your friends don't say you are no longer successful because you now want to buy an OTR Cameron. You shouldve bought one earlier some of they are quite good.
[/quote]

Another American success story is former Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio. He also made a lot of money. I am not saying Cameron is like this guy but Nacchio was considered successful until be got caught.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1850044' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:23 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850038' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:03 AM']From the stories told here he has had ugly splits with virtually everyone he has done business with.[/quote]

Congratulations foregasim, mission accomplished.
[/quote]

Stop with the attacks on foregasim. Your baseless rantings are getting old.

[Johnny]

Reminder : Bold items seem to be where this thread has real issues. If we cant contain ourselves you can guess the results. Like Richard said early, dont make us comb through this thread and hand out punishment.

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[stage1350]

Biscuity,

You must be seriously reaching if you feel the need to quote my bag as ANOTHER justification in this thread.

I also think you have incredibly poor taste throwing Mr. Doug's name into this thread when he is not posting here. It's bad enough that you keep fighting with Foregasim and accusing him of being JR without proof.

If you have facts, post them. But every time you start a justification sentence with "maybe" "perhaps" or "possibly" it just shows that you are reaching deep into your rectum to try and find an excuse to give Cameron a pass.

You say you are just an interested party, but you are defending Cameron more than even the deepest zealots from his camp.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1850044' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:23 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850038' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:03 AM']From the stories told here he has had ugly splits with virtually everyone he has done business with.[/quote]

Congratulations foregasim, mission accomplished.
[/quote]
Rather than attacking Foregasm you might want to say why my statement is untrue. It seems that every person that Scotty has worked with, from business partners to private website developers, has had a falling out. Nobody has provided any meaningful rebuttal to that statement - I wasn't aware it was actually in dispute here.

[varsityhacker]

I think Biscuity is trying to get this thread shutdown... I wonder why??

[Marlockey]

[quote name='varsityhacker' post='1850310' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:31 PM'][b]I think Biscuity is trying to get this thread shutdown[/b]... I wonder why??[/quote]

I think you've nailed it, too many personal attack's for my liking.

In all fairness there are certain people that have brought some Constructive Debates to this Thread and it as been very

informative, But when someone ( biscuity) uses A member's WITB as part of a debate then they loose all credibillity in my book.

[rrkman]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850304' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:28 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1850044' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:23 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850038' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:03 AM']From the stories told here he has had ugly splits with virtually everyone he has done business with.[/quote]

Congratulations foregasim, mission accomplished.
[/quote]
Rather than attacking Foregasm you might want to say why my statement is untrue. It seems that every person that Scotty has worked with, from business partners to private website developers, has had a falling out. Nobody has provided any meaningful rebuttal to that statement - I wasn't aware it was actually in dispute here.
[/quote]

I have certainly seen some of the examples of the relationships that have gone bad. I don't have most of the facts behind what happened but there were certainly some splits that occurred.

But, you have to admit that he is a successful businessman and to do that you have to have some quality relationships. What about with AM&E. People on here have accused AM&E of stealing design ideas and passing them on to him, only doing certain types of designs for him but telling others that it can't be done, etc. Sounds to me like they must have a decent relationship. Also, he's worked with Titleist for over 10 years so there is another example....seems like it has been a win-win situation for both of them. What about the distributors? It seems like Rand and Butler have been associated with him for some time, right? I'm sure that there are others but based on just the little I know, I can find just as many 'successful' relationships as I can 'spilts'.

Listen, I'm not defending him but you can pretty easily find some 'bad' examples for everyone. It sounds to me like most of these were business decisions. Could they have been handled differently, probably....maybe better, maybe worse. I personally know nothing about the bettinardi split but I think that with cameron going to titleist, it was no longer a good fit. He needed inexpensive, mass produced OTR putters....and chose to do this elsewhere. Was it handled in the best way and was it the best choice for Cameron/Titleist? I would guess that is up to the people actually involved.

Same with the private web developer. Having people run a FAN site and also run a different site discussing the competitors makes no sense to me. I probably would have done something similar although hopefully I could have done it just different enough to keep some of these 'partnerships' intact. In business and in life, I don't like having enemies...it just makes things easier without them.

Plus, I have one other question. I tried to ask this earlier and didn't see an answer. I still can't find the inconsistencies from cameron on the mini. The putter archive says that fewer than 5 were made before the merger...might be misleading but do we have facts that say this isn't true? My understanding is that 5 finished heads were made, right? When were they turned into putters, before or after the merger? Does anyone know this? Were they even all turned into putters? Is the head at Studio B included in those 5 or less than 5?

[psd]

[quote name='CallawayOnly' post='1850406' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:18 AM']I still think the only way anyone can have "credibility" is to be transparent. Anyone un-willing to come clean after all that has been said, has little credibility in my book, no matter which side of the fence you are on.[/quote]

Nearly everyone here comes to the table with some sort of bias. xxio's baiting of biscuity is what drove the latest round. That's plain to see.



Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='psd' post='1850460' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:43 AM'][quote name='CallawayOnly' post='1850406' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:18 AM']I still think the only way anyone can have "credibility" is to be transparent. Anyone un-willing to come clean after all that has been said, has little credibility in my book, no matter which side of the fence you are on.[/quote]

Nearly everyone here comes to the table with some sort of bias. xxio's baiting of biscuity is what drove the latest round. That's plain to see.



Now back to our regularly scheduled program...
[/quote]


Yes, my bias is based on several pieces of factual information I have come to know regarding specific subject matter. That said, I can still comment positively towards Cameron and products when warranted. I will be unbiased when warranted and speak with bias when earned. At the end of the day I am not spinning information in an attempt to force my point of view. I am presenting the best factual information that I know of to enlighten others. I appreciate other people's information, based on facts, because this extends my knowledge.

[reflog74]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1850437' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:32 AM']I personally know nothing about the bettinardi split but I think that with cameron going to titleist, it was no longer a good fit. He needed inexpensive, mass produced OTR putters....and chose to do this elsewhere. Was it handled in the best way and was it the best choice for Cameron/Titleist? I would guess that is up to the people actually involved.[/quote]

Randy,

The split had nothing to do with Cameron contracting with Titleist. That happened in 1995. The split occurred at the end of 1997. Bettinardi milled all of Cameron's putters for Titleist for those 3 years: gun blues, oilcans, first generation TeI.

John