Paying (or Not Paying) $$$ in Skin Games

[mlamar]

When you see your opponent improve his lie in fairway, etc

Here's the situation ... Was playing in a skin pot (nothing big) and also had a side bet with Player A (aka Fluffer) ...

(1) the skin pot was minimum $1 per hole (par or better) with no carry over ...
No Problem ... (out of pocket $3 to other guys in group - 5 total players) ... Cool

(2) Side Bet with Fluffer
(a) $5 - Match Play Front Nine
(b) $5 - Match Play Back Nine
© $5 - Total Score

Here lies the problems (there were a couple of others before the ones listed):

(1) 1st Incident - Hole #14, Fluffer 3rd shot lands short of green in primary rough just short of first cut on green.
He's attempting to putt the ball, and during his pre-shot routine, I noticed he took his putter and improved the lie in front of the ball
by patting the grass and then putted. ( I noted on my scored card )

(2) 2nd Incident - Hole #16, Fluffer 2nd shot out of the bunker lands in the rough ... I see him improve his lie again (Again - I noted it
on my card).

(3) 3rd Incident - Hole #17 Par 3, Fluffer tee shot lands short, he improves his lie short of the green. I called Fluffer out
(a) I Said - "What are you doing - you can't be improving your lie like that"
(b) Fluffer response - "It's in the fairway"
© My response - "It's the middle of summer - NO WINTER RULES IN EFFECT - WTF YO PROBLEM"
(d) 1 other player in the group - "He's being doing it all day"
(e) My response - "You can Fluff Deez **** - I'm not paying anything - you been cheating all day"

Results (on the scored card):
(1) He won by 1 stoke on Front Nine
(2) We were even on the Back Nine
(3) Overall he beat me by 2 strokes

As a result, he didn't want to go back an adjust those 1 stroke penalties - so I DIDN'T PAY THE $10. Overall I would have won.

What are your thoughts ????

[Smooth spin scott]

Hopefully he learnt his lesson....nice that you called him on it. When money's involved, it's on like donkey kong.

[golfcardsx2]

I think you'd be ok not paying out, especially considering you have others in your foursome who stated that he was doing it all day long. Now having said that, you should evaluate your relationship with this guy. If he is a close friend or a regular playing partner, you might not want to create a fuss or burn a bridge. I play often with my uncles and some of their friends. They are all at least 20 years older than I am and play together all the time. They always have some sort of skins game going between them and I have been joining in as of late. Now, they don't play strictly by the book, ie they don't return to the original spot for a lost ball and will roll the ball in the fairway. But for their group, it's understood that is how they play and they say it's to help speed things up, which I don't really like but deal with because I love playing golf and love spending time with my uncles. But there is one guy (who thankfully hasn't been around much this year) who takes it to a different level--fluffing his lies in the rough, moving out from behind a tree, etc. And I have never said anything because I don't want to be a jerk about it, but I love it when when someone else calls him out (which my uncle does all the time).

 

To me, it's all about setting the rules before you start. The times I've had a bet that was more than just a little fun, I've always said something along the lines of, "Ok, so we're playing the ball down, taking stroke and distance--100% by the book. Otherwise you're out of the hole." That sends the message that no BS is allowed.

[goinglow72]

You should have called himout on it the first time you saw it....you "not paying" made you look bad reguardless.

[Dizz]

You should have called himout on it the first time you saw it....you "not paying" made you look bad reguardless.

 

Agreed, I would have said something the first time and let it slide but tell him if he does it again then its a penalty.

[amerza18]

That's why I stopped betting on the course. Too many little things that will aggrevate me like the fluffer. It gets me out of my game and I start playing badly.

 

That said, you should have called him out when he improved his lie. That's not only a one stroke penalty, but a second (maybe thrid) stroke for playing from the wrong spot. Once you tell your playing partner that he indeed improved his lie, he should have replaced it at the original spot and played forward from there.

[mlamar]

You should have called himout on it the first time you saw it....you "not paying" made you look bad reguardless.

 

He got called out earlier by others in the group as well (but continued) ... so he knew ...

And NO, I'm not gonna pay into a Cheating Bet ... AT ALL

 

I've won $$$ and lost $$$ playing with friends - its all good

[SJHSCCC]

Sounds to me like you must have been having a bad day on the course to worry about small stuff like that. If he kicks out from behind a tree, or pulls the ball out of deep rough sure call him out. But I don't see the harm in adjusting the ball a little when its in the fairway, or patting the grass in front of the ball before putting. You still have to hit the shot. But if that is how you play, you have to call him out, and penalize him if he does it again. Not right to just write it on your card and not pay at the end.

[imyourfrend]

How did he beat you by two strokes if you were down by one on the front and even on the back??

 

Either way, good thing you called him out, but you should have done it the first time rather than mark your scorecard.

[ctime]

I think you are entitled to not pay, but you should have called him on it the first time you saw him improve his lie. Alot of people are used to playing like that so anytime I gamble I always try to clarify how the ball is to be played before starting. Just saying something when you agree to the bet like "So its $5 dollars a side and we're playing it down everywhere?" could clear up any confusion.

[Openwater22]

Sounds to me like you must have been having a bad day on the course to worry about small stuff like that. If he kicks out from behind a tree, or pulls the ball out of deep rough sure call him out. But I don't see the harm in adjusting the ball a little when its in the fairway, or patting the grass in front of the ball before putting. You still have to hit the shot. But if that is how you play, you have to call him out, and penalize him if he does it again. Not right to just write it on your card and not pay at the end.

 

Cheating is not small stuff! You either play by the rules, or U R a CHEAT! Period! No debate. Now, I don't have a problem if a regular group decides to play OB as a lateral hazard, or play winter rules, or whatever else suits their fancy, as long as they know and play by the rules when playing in an event, or skins game, or whatever, outside of their regular game. It is everyones duty to protect the field. If you observe someone knowingly or unknowingly break a rule, it is your responsibilty to call it immediately.

[crtssxc]

I agree, everyone should know the rules of the game before it starts. Sometimes people take things too far with everything. With the people I play with it is known that you do not have to hit off the roots of trees, or play a lie where your followthrough could hit a tree etc and hurt yourself or damage your clubs, however, in that instance you cannot move yourself to give yourself a better angle etc and generally it leads to just chipping out sideways which is a fair trade most times.

 

I agree though, that if you are playing for $, you should say something right away to avoid any confusion/anger on the 18th green.

[mikec222]

when your putting money on a line, unless you have another agreement you play by the rules.

 

The courses around here had some terrible winter burn, so we agree you can move the ball a bit on the fairway, as when club tournaments are played they usually get lift clean and place.

[mlamar]

All points are well taken ... Appreciate the feedback ... Definitely will clarify on the 1st Tee going forward ... Thx

 

Everyone (the other 4 players) were playing their balls where they lie. There were no

disagreements ... no questionable calls ... etc

 

Here's an earlier event that happened with Fluffy:

On the 5th Hole (Par 3) he pulled his tee shot into the tree lined cart path. The ball rest near

a tree. His stance was good, but the follow-thru could possibly cause him to hit a smaller tree.

He proceeds to take practice swings (no harm - no foul). Then he addresses the ball and take

a full swing and misses the ball. One of the other player and I look at each other instantly and noticed

it was a stroke. So he takes another swing, ball lands short of the green. We asked him what

was he "ly-ing". He said 2, we both said - "No - you're ly-ing 3" and he argued, but he took

the "Double Bogey"

[SJHSCCC]

"Cheating is not small stuff! You either play by the rules, or U R a CHEAT! Period! No debate"

 

 

I love playing for money with guys that are really uptight about the rules. Its a feeling like none other when they are counting out those greenbacks and placing them in your hand at the end of the round, after they have called you out for moving your ball an inch to the side when your in the fairway.

[lagwagon23]

Try to set him up for a money game with members of a known crime family.

[bloodredsun]

It's a tough one only because you didn't establish what rules you were going to play under but I wouldn't pay up either. I don't care about following the rules absolutely if you are just practising but to me, if you are competing with someone for money or for bragging rights then it's strict rules. We all know that some people have a small set of freebies (mulligans off the first/foot wedge if there's a stone under your ball/gimmies inside 5 feet) that they expect others to be happy with and if you don't nail them down then that's your fault.

 

Your problem is that you didn't bring it to their attention straight up. The first time it happened you needed to say something. I'm not sure that I would go straight for the jugular and say 'That's a penalty stroke, you've improved your lie' but probably something along the lines of 'Careful there mate, that's awefully close to improving your lie and I'd hate for you to get a penalty stroke'. Just marking it down is just saving up trouble for later. Once you've given the warning then feel free to stick it to them - politely of course - 'Sorry Fluffer but that's a stroke.' If they get upset, you can point out that you're well aware that they did the same thing earlier and you let them off so would they like 1 penalty stroke or 2?

 

I've not been in your situation but I've had a friend who used to get a little 'lazy' in the bunkers and ground his club to impriove the. One quick warning no too different from the above and no more problems.

[boo radley]

I agree, everyone should know the rules of the game before it starts. Sometimes people take things too far with everything. With the people I play with it is known that you do not have to hit off the roots of trees, or play a lie where your followthrough could hit a tree etc and hurt yourself or damage your clubs....

 

God, I hate that twist with a passion -- no offense to you, but I hear that a lot: "Oh, you might hurt your club hitting near that root/tree/rock/gravel..." Fine. Declare an unplayable lie, and take the according penalty. The Rules provide for exactly this situation. It's like getting a free drop from a water hazard, 'cause you'd ruin your clothes with mud if you tried to hit out of it.

 

Anyway, to the OP - I don't think anyone is arguing that 'Fluffer' is cheating a bit; it's just bad form to wait until the very end and declare you're not paying.

 

Far better to say, at the first violation: "Man, what are you doing?" Just ask genuinely. Depending on the answer, explain you don't want to play -- for MONEY -- under a different set of rules than had been agreed upon. Instead, it comes across as if you'd welched on a bet, though I agree with your reasons for being unhappy with the situation.

[PixlPutterman]

Sounds to me like you must have been having a bad day on the course to worry about small stuff like that. If he kicks out from behind a tree, or pulls the ball out of deep rough sure call him out. But I don't see the harm in adjusting the ball a little when its in the fairway, or patting the grass in front of the ball before putting. You still have to hit the shot. But if that is how you play, you have to call him out, and penalize him if he does it again. Not right to just write it on your card and not pay at the end.

Any improvement at all is cheating when money is involved, those few fluffs probably saved the guy a skulled shot or two.

 

How can you fault the guy for not paying. Like he said the other players called him out. Even if he was having a bad day at the course, to not cheat and lose by two.......... I wouldnt pay either.

 

I bet this big trash talker at work 10 per hole. He walked around saying he was a scratch golfer and I knew he was far from it. I won 17 holes and guess what, not a dime from him!!! Albeit he cheated like crazy and I kept calling him out on it and I kept track of the penalties, he would have lost if he wouldnt have cheated, but he had the nerve to call me out for improper penalization, thus not paying. Needless to say that story got around at work and now the Boss actually banned him from the company outings from now on

[PixlPutterman]

"Cheating is not small stuff! You either play by the rules, or U R a CHEAT! Period! No debate"

 

 

I love playing for money with guys that are really uptight about the rules. Its a feeling like none other when they are counting out those greenbacks and placing them in your hand at the end of the round, after they have called you out for moving your ball an inch to the side when your in the fairway.

remind me never to bet with you, if your so good why do you even need to move a ball.

 

like others have said it doesnt matter if you dont play by the rules, if you all agree to it prior. But when you dont and people start calling you out and you still do it.........pathetic.

 

There is a nig reason i dont bet among friends. Makes the round no fun

[PixlPutterman]

I agree, everyone should know the rules of the game before it starts. Sometimes people take things too far with everything. With the people I play with it is known that you do not have to hit off the roots of trees, or play a lie where your followthrough could hit a tree etc and hurt yourself or damage your clubs....

 

God, I hate that twist with a passion -- no offense to you, but I hear that a lot: "Oh, you might hurt your club hitting near that root/tree/rock/gravel..." Fine. Declare an unplayable lie, and take the according penalty. The Rules provide for exactly this situation. It's like getting a free drop from a water hazard, 'cause you'd ruin your clothes with mud if you tried to hit out of it.

 

Anyway, to the OP - I don't think anyone is arguing that 'Fluffer' is cheating a bit; it's just bad form to wait until the very end and declare you're not paying.

 

Far better to say, at the first violation: "Man, what are you doing?" Just ask genuinely. Depending on the answer, explain you don't want to play -- for MONEY -- under a different set of rules than had been agreed upon. Instead, it comes across as if you'd welched on a bet, though I agree with your reasons for being unhappy with the situation.

I would have to agree, about the only thing i hate in the rules of golf is one that the masses agree is a terrible rule, playing out of an unrepaired divot in the middle of the fairway. theres nothing more frusterated than crushing one down the middle and finding that half your ball is above ground because some miner didnt feel the need to repair his damage after using a backhoe for his second shot. Argh

[SJHSCCC]

I play with friends most of the time, and we play $2 a hole, $5 on birdies. We have set rules that you get a club heads width either way no closer to the hole, play it as it lies out of any water, sand, or if your behind a tree. That is our way of playing, Im not saying thats how everyone should play. Im just saying that if your playing with friends for change like OP stated, its not worth getting worked up about. Big money games and tournaments are different.

[csummer]

When someone cheats they know it and shouldn't have to be told and it's also fun to see how far they will go if they think they are getting away with it.

 

I guess if they play by those rules normally maybe they think everyone plays by those rules.

 

I think we should all assume we are playing by the standard rules of golf unless something else is specified.

[Openwater22]

"Cheating is not small stuff! You either play by the rules, or U R a CHEAT! Period! No debate"

 

 

I love playing for money with guys that are really uptight about the rules. Its a feeling like none other when they are counting out those greenbacks and placing them in your hand at the end of the round, after they have called you out for moving your ball an inch to the side when your in the fairway.

 

 

Golf always reveals ones true character. Yours has been revealed. I'm just saying.

[PixlPutterman]

Its one thing to agree on what ever set of rules you want to play by, but to break those rules, no matter how small or insignificant you feel that may be, is just pure cheating.

 

Some people have stated that its not big deal and not to get worked up over a few bucks or what ever they were playing for, but for the cheater,is it that big a deal to get worked up over a few bucks that you have to cheat, works both ways

[Williams5203]

I agree with you that he should have played by the rules, but you should have had the gumption to call him on it up front, he could have take the penalty the first time, and most likely, wouldn't have done it again throughout the round. by "marking in on the scorecard" and not saying anything, it looks to me like you were forming a back up plan just in case he beat you, the better question is would you have said anything about it had you won? probably not and he would have gone on doing this in future rounds for money or in tourneys

[azone]

Good comments here. I love to bet and play. I get the bet and the rules clearly set before play. If a problem like yours comes up, you have to address it RIGHT AWAY. I usually look straight ahead, or plan my shot, while saying "I KNOW you aren't improving your lie over there, because that would mean a big penalty for you." He knows I am watching and not taking any bs. That way, he knows I gave him a freebie-- but not two. It works on the cheater's psyche. A cheater will cheat for a bet of $1 or $1,000 a hole-- it doesn't matter.

[mlamar]

when your putting money on a line, unless you have another agreement you play by the rules.

 

The courses around here had some terrible winter burn, so we agree you can move the ball a bit on the fairway, as when club tournaments are played they usually get lift clean and place.

 

 

Agree. The only rule we established on the course was "Hitting 2 off the First Tee" ... Other than that, play it as it lie.

The courses we play here in the Atlanta area are very good this time of year (we've had a lots of rain). The ruff is up,

the fairways are defined, the greens are good (minus the divots that players don't fix). Also, there are questionable

calls on the course that we get clarification on and we agree and move on. Again, play it as it lie.

[kentutz]

I agree with you that he should have played by the rules, but you should have had the gumption to call him on it up front, he could have take the penalty the first time, and most likely, wouldn't have done it again throughout the round. by "marking in on the scorecard" and not saying anything, it looks to me like you were forming a back up plan just in case he beat you, the better question is would you have said anything about it had you won? probably not and he would have gone on doing this in future rounds for money or in tourneys

 

Agree. You should've laid down the rule of the bet with fluffer as soon as you noticed it. By continuing to play knowing you wouldn't pay him when you lose just means that you're in an win-win situation. No bet is win win.

[crtssxc]

God, I hate that twist with a passion -- no offense to you, but I hear that a lot: "Oh, you might hurt your club hitting near that root/tree/rock/gravel..." Fine. Declare an unplayable lie, and take the according penalty. The Rules provide for exactly this situation. It's like getting a free drop from a water hazard, 'cause you'd ruin your clothes with mud if you tried to hit out of it.

 

I believe you missed the point. I was not saying that that is the correct way to play according to the rules of golf. What I was saying was that in the groups I play with that is one of the agreed upon rule modifications that we play by (for better or worse), and as long as everyone is aware of it, then it is fine. However, I would never do that when playing with any other people for $ or otherwise.

 

As with everything, if everyone is aware of the rules before it stars, that is fair.