Paying (or Not Paying) $$$ in Skin Games

[pete9781]

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

[SJHSCCC]

Its one thing to agree on what ever set of rules you want to play by, but to break those rules, no matter how small or insignificant you feel that may be, is just pure cheating.

 

Some people have stated that its not big deal and not to get worked up over a few bucks or what ever they were playing for, but for the cheater,is it that big a deal to get worked up over a few bucks that you have to cheat, works both ways

 

 

I am not saying that purposely breaking the rules, after specific rules have been layed out, is ok by any means, or should it be tolerated. If you improve your lie any at all after rules have been set you should be penalized. I was saying that if your playing with a group and a guy pulls his ball out of a divot in the fairway or something to the equivalent. Its not a big deal. One of the worst rules in golf is having to play your ball as it lies out of a divot someone has left without fixing it after gutting a ball down the fairway. But if you don't like it then let him know make him put it back and play the shot, but don't drop a penalty stroke on him or worse wait til the end of the round and then call him out.

[Pepperturbo]

Here's the situation ... Was playing in a skin pot (nothing big) and also had a side bet with Player A (aka Fluffer) ...

 

(1) the skin pot was minimum $1 per hole (par or better) with no carry over ...

No Problem ... (out of pocket $3 to other guys in group - 5 total players) ... Cool

 

(2) Side Bet with Fluffer

(a) $5 - Match Play Front Nine

(b) $5 - Match Play Back Nine

© $5 - Total Score

 

Here lies the problems (there were a couple of others before the ones listed):

 

(1) 1st Incident - Hole #14, Fluffer 3rd shot lands short of green in primary rough just short of first cut on green.

He's attempting to putt the ball, and during his pre-shot routine, I noticed he took his putter and improved the lie in front of the ball

by patting the grass and then putted. ( I noted on my scored card )

 

(2) 2nd Incident - Hole #16, Fluffer 2nd shot out of the bunker lands in the rough ... I see him improve his lie again (Again - I noted it

on my card).

 

(3) 3rd Incident - Hole #17 Par 3, Fluffer tee shot lands short, he improves his lie short of the green. I called Fluffer out

(a) I Said - "What are you doing - you can't be improving your lie like that"

(b) Fluffer response - "It's in the fairway"

© My response - "It's the middle of summer - NO WINTER RULES IN EFFECT - WTF YO PROBLEM"

(d) 1 other player in the group - "He's being doing it all day"

(e) My response - "You can Fluff Deez **** - I'm not paying anything - you been cheating all day"

 

Results (on the scored card):

(1) He won by 1 stoke on Front Nine

(2) We were even on the Back Nine

(3) Overall he beat me by 2 strokes

 

As a result, he didn't want to go back an adjust those 1 stroke penalties - so I DIDN'T PAY THE $10. Overall I would have won.

 

What are your thoughts ????

 

I regularly play for money $$$. Now and again I face some questionable opponents. IMO this is more about how you and I handle money games not so much how a cheater handles them.

 

If your playing for money, regardless of the amount starting on the 1st hole you should be paying attention to the actions of your opponent(s). Realizing something inappropriate happened on #14 and there after is NOT good; reason what happened to you is partically your fault.

 

Your opponent is a cheater, fine; sounds like his friends knew that all along. You, not only don't pay attention to your opponents actions you expected him to behave differently after the fact; and when he doesn't you break a promise on paying up, nullifying the bet. Just because someone does something that is wrong, doesn't mean you can then do something wrong as well and say its right.

 

I play with a group of guys that notoriously bump the ball even during the summer; and they play off my ball being I am a low index. I am aware of their propensity to fudge on the rules even though I play by the rules, and pay up if I loose, because giving my word means everything to me and what I am about.

 

I stand on the street corner looking the other way while a 7/11 is being robbed. I then turn around and see the robber running out of the store. Do I holler STOP take the money back expecting the robber to change his colors ... or do I react by doing the right thing?

[lagwagon23]

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

 

He doesn't look worse than the cheater for not wanting to pay. Why should you even pay a person 1 dollar if they cheated?

[mlamar]

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

 

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...

There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front

of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of

the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

 

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

 

Everyone else in the group agreed

[longbutter]

There are many here including myself that will feel the exact opposite than you on this one. The rules are the game are clear and fluffing does impact the shot. It makes it easier to hit the shot, control the spin ect. You want to fluff it fine, play in the old man's league at the local goat track. You want to play me for $$$ play it down, if you don't you are playing something other than golf. I understand many people don't take the game that serious and that is fine, but when you playing for $$$ you play by the rules.

[Richie18]

How old are you? jeez. Grow up with the !!!! comments.

 

Sounds like you were playing with a few people who didn't necessarily care to follow the rules strictly and/or haven't played many betting rounds of golf.

 

If that was the case you should establish the seriousness before hand.

In any case when money is on the line, and sometimes the purpose of it, golf should be taken more seriously and therefore the rules should be more strictly applied.

In my group we play a money game every time, every rules decision is confirmed by a playing partner, regardless if that follows USGA rules (which most times it does) then that is the final decision.

 

Same would go for a pickup basketball game, getting a ticky tack foul when going in for a layup may not be necessary to call when it is all fun in games, but when money is on the line, or the game is serious, then a foul is a foul.

[Pepperturbo]

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

 

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...

There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front

of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of

the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

 

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

 

Everyone else in the group agreed

 

You asked for the thoughts of others... you got'em. Guess you expected everyone to agree with you... Aside from the rules of golf how each of us behaves playing 18, money or not is a microcosm of the rest of our lives.

[scarywoody]

I understand where you're coming from and agree to an extent you shouldn't pay. My only issue would be waiting until the 17th to confront him. From an outside view it might look like you knew you were going to lose and were looking for an excuse not to pay. I think you should have given him a warning that you were going to cancel all bets if he improved his lie after he did it the first time. As far as I'm concerned anything not called on the hole it happens on is not applicable to the final score.

[mosesgolf]

I play with a guy like that and I usually let him know that he's being a PU$$Y. He got the message and he's getting better. He used to take some questionable drops(such as dropping closer to the hole or on the other side of a water hazard knowing it didn't carry). All of us have been giving him the business about wearing a skirt when he plays. He eventually caught on, got sick of it and has stopped. If you had beaten him even though he was bending the rules, you would've expected him to pay. Therefore, you should pay as well. Just let him know that any bs will be penalized. It was your fault for not calling him on it the first time.

[goinglow72]

Two things in life you can't shake being labeled with....1) "Cheat" 2) "Stiff" and this thread is about both of them!

[blade_man]

I played our member guest this past weekend, GOLF and the rules of golf should automaticly apply, Saturday 18 was a scramble so moving the ball is ok because it's a scramble (I can't guess how many they gave as gimmies on Saturday), but Sunday is best ball, the real rules apply here, play it as you find it, our group did both day, no gimmies, I see the group behind us and the one in front knocking back putts or after a putt going up and "scooping" up the putt without holing out, I was a little upset, one guy in the group in front shoots 69 with boggies on 1 & 2 (his last holes) and wins gross. I didn't say anything to the pro because the guy works in the proshop but "this ain't right" is an understatement. Heck I could shoot high 60's all the time if I take enough putts! I guess the question is "should everyone be told every time to play by the rules and no gimmies."

[peez007]

wow. i have to say, you are TIGHT. If you had a problem, call him out right away. a skins game lends itself to a more relaxed game. right or wrong- you didn't take your "Stance" on the situation untill you knew you were gonna lose.

 

in a course championship or a $ game vs a stranger, ok that is cheating.

 

But your friend tapping the grass with his putter- come on RELAX- the guy is technically guilty of cheating but it is no better being guilty of welching on a bet.

 

In the end, i know i am on the Carefree side of golf - i understand some people are purists but i think you need to realize you are the person in the minority - the VAST MAJORITY of golfers are more relaxed then you are.

 

guys, you are not getting a true sampling of peoples opinions on GOLFWRX .com obviously you are going to get many more golf purists on this site then there are in the general public.

 

Pay da man hiz money.

[DavePelz4]

I wonder how many people play by ALL the rules. One that I see broken every Saturday is playing multiple brands/models of balls from the beginning to the end of the round.

[Pepperturbo]

Excellent point - I see the golf ball switcheroo regularly too. I bet many don't realize that's an infraction. I know a few guys that use one type of ball from the tee, then switch when hitting into the green.

[PixlPutterman]

I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

 

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

 

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

 

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

[PixlPutterman]

If the guy isnt good enough to play a ball as it lies he is not good enough to collect money from a guy that play by the rules, especially when he has to cheat numerous times just to win by 2 strokes.

 

It would be different if mlamar said he lost by ten, and felt that if the guy played fairly it may have been closer and he had a chance.

 

Forget the penalty strokes, fluffing saved the guy 4 or 5 stroke purely on drastically reducing the chance of a mishit. If i skull one across a green, I have a good chance of over compensating on the return pitch shot an hitting it fat. Do that a few times and thats 4 or 5 extra strokes.

[mikec222]

I wonder how many people play by ALL the rules. One that I see broken every Saturday is playing multiple brands/models of balls from the beginning to the end of the round.

 

I'm pretty sure that's only a rule at high level competitions. Pga/ us amateur type tournaments. I find it funny the people who are rules nuts who insist on playing on rules that don't exist.

[Pepperturbo]

15-1. General

A player must hole out with the ball played from the teeing ground unless the ball is lost or out of bounds or the player substitutes another ball, whether or not substitution is permitted (see 15-2). If a player plays a wrong ball, see Rule 15-3.

 

A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the play of a hole. The substituted ball becomes the ball in play.

If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball,

he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule

and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball.

Exception: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when

 

By the way, i don't see myself as a rules nut either. I play any game I take part in by it's rules because the rules allow me to measure progress and skill. If you choose not to that's your choice; as it is for all others. But to call others rules "nuts" because we chose to play by the rules says more about those that like to fudge any chance they get in life.

[Mainlinegolfer]

I wonder how many people play by ALL the rules. One that I see broken every Saturday is playing multiple brands/models of balls from the beginning to the end of the round.

The "one ball condition" is a condition of competition that needs to be declared in effect by the "committee" . Without it being in effect, you can change type of ball on the tee, but not during the play of the hole. e.g. a nice new ball to putt with.

[Greenie]

This is why I don't play for money anymore on the course.It sure can turn a nice day of golf into a bad one. Playing for money always brings out the rules police,cheaters and welchers, sometimes all in the same round.I enjoy playing with my friends but we can't even play for pocket change without an argument over something sooner or later during our round.The final straw for me was when I played with my minister and we played for 10 cents a stroke.Don't laugh. He said he wanted to play for something and said lets keep it friendly..At the end of our round I beat him by 9 strokes so when I mentioned well looks like you owe me 90 cents.He says Oh well too bad it wasn't a dollar.90 cents is hardly worth paying you.I said I have 10 cents if you want to give me a dollar.So he says it was just the idea of playing for something that made it interesting..A yr later he joins my foursome and says how about playing for something .I say how about 100 bucks a stroke since it's just the idea of playing for something and you aren't gonna pay anyway if you lose.I mentioned he still owed me 90cents. He gets mad, gives me a dollar and says I am making a big deal out of nothing. I said no I am not making a big deal out of it.I just want my friends to know you have no intention of paying if you lose no matter what the bet is.Needless to say most of our round was played in silence. I just pass on betting now.

[mlamar]

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

 

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...

There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front

of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of

the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

 

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

 

Everyone else in the group agreed

 

You asked for the thoughts of others... you got'em. Guess you expected everyone to agree with you... Aside from the rules of golf how each of us behaves playing 18, money or not is a microcosm of the rest of our lives.

 

I disagree with ===> you are worrying about $15 (I'm not worrying bout $15) .. the issue isn't with the money .. you

win some ... you lose some ( i've been on both sides ) ... cool

 

Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):

I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

 

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

 

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

 

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

[PixlPutterman]

remind me never to bet with alot of you from this thread, :D

[Pepperturbo]

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

 

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...

There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front

of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of

the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

 

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

 

Everyone else in the group agreed

 

You asked for the thoughts of others... you got'em. Guess you expected everyone to agree with you... Aside from the rules of golf how each of us behaves playing 18, money or not is a microcosm of the rest of our lives.

 

I disagree with ===> you are worrying about $15 (I'm not worrying bout $15) .. the issue isn't with the money .. you

win some ... you lose some ( i've been on both sides ) ... cool

 

Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):

I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

 

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

 

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

 

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

 

You've totally missed why some of us think paying is the "right" thing to do. I don't care what someone uses as a reason for not paying either, or how much money is involved, if someone doesn't pay it reflects upon their character. I know right from wrong. I make a bet - I pay if I loose, doesn't matter what the other guy does or doesn't do. I will NOT base my behavior off a looser.

 

Catching a fly in baseball is not only a poor example; it has NOTHING to do with how we behave in a game or otherwise. :lol: I guess some folks can't or choose not to see the bigger issues at hand by not paying. It's quite simple; pay is right :yes: - not to pay is wrong! :nono:

[Ronzo]

Back when I was a sales engineer playing with my division's salespeople, they would always suggest having bets on the outcome. My response was always, "OK. But we play the ball down, strict rules of golf, as published here." Then I would take my USGA Rules of Golf book out of my bag.

 

A lot of the talk about betting stopped right there. Some players took me up on it. The better players, usually. The salespeople who were more casual players occasionally did, and I usually made a few bucks off their egos.

 

Whenever I play with people in a casual round who ask me why I don't roll the ball over, or why I hit from lousy positions, or why I don't take mulligans, I tell them that occasionally, I have to play a round with a client where they want to have a bet going, and I need to practice shots from those positions so I have a prayer of hitting a similar shot in the betting situation if I have to. That and that God doesn't smile on my round if I take a mulligan. Most people get it.

[roll - gybe]

I agree with bits and pieces of everything here.

 

My view is that you needed to confront him a little earlier. It sucks to have to rise to that level, but when you are faced with tolerating unfairness or getting into it with someone, neither situation is good.

 

Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.

 

There is a possibility that he doesn't perceive his actions to be those of a cheat. There is a chance that he will want to change.

 

If he is just disgraced, then there is no good in it for the future.

 

Of course, he was wrong, I don't contest that. Had it been for more dough, enough to make a difference, I think you have another problem:

How can you wait until the end before calling him out? If you wait to see the outcome as your loss, then you have a motive to misrepresent what really happened. Your proof is long gone too.

[mlamar]

[quote name='roll - gybe' post='1833941' date='Jul 21 2009, 12:58 PM']I agree with bits and pieces of everything here.

My view is that you needed to confront him a little earlier. It sucks to have to rise to that level, but when you are faced with tolerating unfairness or getting into it with someone, neither situation is good.

Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.

There is a possibility that he doesn't perceive his actions to be those of a cheat. There is a chance that he will want to change.

If he is just disgraced, then there is no good in it for the future.

Of course, he was wrong, I don't contest that. Had it been for more dough, enough to make a difference, I think you have another problem:
How can you wait until the end before calling him out? If you wait to see the outcome as your loss, then you have a motive to misrepresent what really happened. Your proof is long gone too.[/quote]


Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.


[u][b]Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):[/b][/u]
I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

[i][b]first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar. [/b][/i]

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

[philfan316]

Rules of thumb with money on the line.

1.) You call someone out immediately. You don't keep a record like a journalist and then drop a bomb on the guy at the end of the round. That only breeds more problems. It looks like you are trying to establish an ace in the hole just in case you lose. Plus, calling them out early ruins thier game most times.

2.) You have to say outloud, "There are no mulligans, lie improvements without consultation, or illegal drops, ballmarking, etc. We are playing by the book, and have a rule book handy. You want to play for money, we play by the rules. But you have to establish this before you even start. Just because rules exist, doesn't mean people are subject to follow them. You have to make it clear that you are serious about the rules.

3.) Try to set the game up yourself. What I mean by that is, if you are playing a guy that is better than you or at least believe he might be sandbagging you, then you ask for odds. Ok, it's like this. You can give me 2 shots a side and we both play for $10 on the nines. OR We can play even scratch golf, and I play for $30 on the nines and you play for $10. There has to be some risk involved on the bet for the better player. So pick one, strokes or odds. He's giving you 1 to 3 odds against. You're giving him 3 to 1 odds on. If you feel you can beat him, or know his game, don't say anything.

[roll - gybe]

[quote name='mlamar' post='1839089' date='Jul 23 2009, 02:22 PM'][quote name='roll - gybe' post='1833941' date='Jul 21 2009, 12:58 PM']I agree with bits and pieces of everything here.

My view is that you needed to confront him a little earlier. It sucks to have to rise to that level, but when you are faced with tolerating unfairness or getting into it with someone, neither situation is good.

Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.

There is a possibility that he doesn't perceive his actions to be those of a cheat. There is a chance that he will want to change.

If he is just disgraced, then there is no good in it for the future.

Of course, he was wrong, I don't contest that. Had it been for more dough, enough to make a difference, I think you have another problem:
How can you wait until the end before calling him out? If you wait to see the outcome as your loss, then you have a motive to misrepresent what really happened. Your proof is long gone too.[/quote]


Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.


[u][b]Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):[/b][/u]
I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

[i][b]first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar. [/b][/i]

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.
[/quote]


I may have this a little wrong, but you helped him correct his score on #5, but didn't tell him he was breaking rules until 17. I don't know if you mentioned the other infractions earlier. It just seems to me like from Fluffer's perspective (not yours) by the time you brought up a rules violation with him the situation had run amuck. Maybe I got it a little wrong, and I am not trying to butt heads. I'm just saying it is important to figure out what he knows and doesn't know before you fall down on a bet. Sounds like a crappy situation.

I had to deal with a cheat a few weeks ago. The worst part about it was the uncomfortable few minutes when I had to decide how to handle it. It's almost more self-anguish than anything else (unless you aren't playing just for a "fun" amount of money)

In general, I feel personally like I don't like to let those situations persist during the course of a round if they are going to bother me. It's a tough call. I think my ultimate decision node is that I don't want to get to the point where the bet is off. Certainly I don't want anyone to be surprised about it at or near the end of the day. I prefer to hammer out something else, like an offsetting side bet if we can't move on. It may serve the same purpose as calling off the bet, but then no one ever has to be known for falling down.

[Ronzo]

Ian Fleming wrote (in [i]Goldfinger[/i]) that, "The only remedy against a cheat at golf is not to play with him again."

There are a few people of my acquaintance with whom I won't play for just that reason. Not just people that don't play the ball down. If there's no money or real pride on the line, it hurts them far worse than me to roll the ball or foot-wedge it. I'm talking about outright cheats -- a couple of whom are my relatives.