Paying (or Not Paying) $$$ in Skin Games

[atlanta golfer]

[quote name='Lefty Putt Righty' post='1831367' date='Jul 20 2009, 12:55 PM'][quote name='boo radley' post='1831287' date='Jul 20 2009, 11:18 AM'][quote name='crtssxc' post='1831194' date='Jul 20 2009, 11:44 AM']I agree, everyone should know the rules of the game before it starts. Sometimes people take things too far with everything. With the people I play with it is known that you do not have to hit off the roots of trees, or play a lie where your followthrough could hit a tree etc and hurt yourself or damage your clubs....[/quote]

God, I hate that twist with a passion -- no offense to you, but I hear that a lot: "Oh, you might hurt your club hitting near that root/tree/rock/gravel..." Fine. Declare an unplayable lie, and take the according penalty. The Rules provide for exactly this situation. It's like getting a free drop from a water hazard, 'cause you'd ruin your clothes with mud if you tried to hit out of it.

Anyway, to the OP - I don't think anyone is arguing that 'Fluffer' is cheating a bit; it's just bad form to wait until the very end and declare you're not paying.

Far better to say, at the first violation: "Man, what are you doing?" Just ask genuinely. Depending on the answer, explain you don't want to play -- for MONEY -- under a different set of rules than had been agreed upon. Instead, it comes across as if you'd welched on a bet, though I agree with your reasons for being unhappy with the situation.
[/quote]
I would have to agree, about the only thing i hate in the rules of golf is one that the masses agree is a terrible rule, playing out of an unrepaired divot in the middle of the fairway. theres nothing more frusterated than crushing one down the middle and finding that half your ball is above ground because some miner didnt feel the need to repair his damage after using a backhoe for his second shot. Argh
[/quote]

I agree, but you know what? ..... I have been in that situation this year at least a couple of key times - once in a match play league match, and once on the 18th hole of a tournament where I had a one stroke lead on another guy in my group going for second place, and we both were in the same area of the fairway. In the first case I made par (but just about broke my hand!) and in the other I made bogie but still finished in second place ahead of the guy I was playing with. My point being, this made me a better golfer, and helped build confidence with me that no matter where I find my ball, I can deal with it and still make a decent score.

[Ronzo]

[quote name='atlanta golfer' post='1841206' date='Jul 24 2009, 02:28 PM']I agree, but you know what? ..... I have been in that situation this year at least a couple of key times - once in a match play league match, and once on the 18th hole of a tournament where I had a one stroke lead on another guy in my group going for second place, and we both were in the same area of the fairway. In the first case I made par (but just about broke my hand!) and in the other I made bogie but still finished in second place ahead of the guy I was playing with. My point being, this made me a better golfer, and helped build confidence with me that no matter where I find my ball, I can deal with it and still make a decent score.[/quote]

Exactly.

[Jean-Claude]

[quote name='SJHSCCC' post='1831065' date='Jul 20 2009, 10:51 AM']Sounds to me like you must have been having a bad day on the course to worry about small stuff like that. If he kicks out from behind a tree, or pulls the ball out of deep rough sure call him out. But I don't see the harm in adjusting the ball a little when its in the fairway, or patting the grass in front of the ball before putting. You still have to hit the shot. But if that is how you play, you have to call him out, and penalize him if he does it again. Not right to just write it on your card and not pay at the end.[/quote]

Really? I was under the impression it is up to everyone to keep their own score. If he cheats and waits, it's the cheater's fault. There's no way to justify cheating. Saying his score is legit would be justifying cheating.

[Jean-Claude]

If the OP wants to wait till the end to say something, that's cool with me. Even if his intent was to see if he could win anyways. The point being if he won despite the cheating he is entitled to the money. If the cheater gets called only when he supposedly "wins" that's his loss due to CHEATING. If he had not cheated he wouldn't be facing the issue.

[golfortennis]

I have to say I am in utter shock that things like "you hadn't agreed on the rules prior to the match" are even posted here. While I can understand things like lift, clean and cheat being agreed to before the round, have we seriously reached a point where not saying "we are playing by the rules of golf" prior to the first tee justifies rolling the ball?

It would seem to me that the default starting point are the RoG. Any deviation from such should be agreed upon prior, however, in the absence of such, RoG prevail.

I wouldn't pay. If the cheater can't call the penalty on himself, when he submits that score, he submitted an incorrect scorecard, and his score is null and void.

It may be time to start distinguishing between playing golf, and whatever it is most people do to pass thetime on a golf course, because it sure as heck isn't golf....

[Pepperturbo]

Interesting perspectives...

Goes to confirm my belief many people vary behavior and choices based on convenience and circumstances; has little or no relationship to the greater deciding factors; knowing right from wrong and solid character.

Told my son last evening darn near every decision he makes shows good or bad judgment and what he values in life. Make the wrong choice once its a mistake to learn from, make it multiple times it not only reflects seriously poor judgment it reflects a lacking that can stay with him over time.

[PixlPutterman]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' post='1833840' date='Jul 21 2009, 11:13 AM'][quote name='mlamar' post='1833604' date='Jul 21 2009, 07:38 AM'][quote name='Pepperturbo' post='1832033' date='Jul 20 2009, 05:00 PM'][quote name='mlamar' post='1831961' date='Jul 20 2009, 01:33 PM'][quote name='pete9781' post='1831672' date='Jul 20 2009, 02:51 PM']this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.[/quote]

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...
There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front
of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of
the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

Everyone else in the group agreed
[/quote]

You asked for the thoughts of others... you got'em. Guess you expected everyone to agree with you... Aside from the rules of golf how each of us behaves playing 18, money or not is a microcosm of the rest of our lives.
[/quote]

I disagree with ===> you are worrying about $15 (I'm not worrying bout $15) .. the issue isn't with the money .. you
win some ... you lose some ( i've been on both sides ) ... cool

[u][b]Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):[/b][/u]
I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.
[/quote]

You've totally missed why some of us think paying is the "right" thing to do. I don't care what someone uses as a reason for not paying either, or how much money is involved, if someone doesn't pay it reflects upon their character. I know right from wrong. I make a bet - I pay if I loose, doesn't matter what the other guy does or doesn't do. I will NOT base my behavior off a looser.

Catching a fly in baseball is not only a poor example; it has NOTHING to do with how we behave in a game or otherwise. I guess some folks can't or choose not to see the bigger issues at hand by not paying. It's quite simple; pay is right - not to pay is wrong!
[/quote]
Ok so we should go play some golf then, and ill cheat and just write downone one stroke less per hole than what you get, and in the end, I expect you to pay.

And the baseball analogy was perfect. Catching the ball in the glove for an out is a no brainer established rule, just as most rules in golf, so why does he need to establish already established rules, pepperturbo, it sounds like you have been not payed before for your cheating ways.

[Ronzo]

^^^
The last phrase is uncalled for, IMO. No evidence of that was presented.

[PixlPutterman]

How so, the guy basically said no matter how bad the guy cheated, one should pay. Thats why i said we should play and ill cheat so bad he has no chance of winning, and ill expect payment for my unearned victory, then we will see how he feels

Plus i made a speculation based on his attitude toward the scenario, i didnt slam him, call him names, or anything like that.

Its pretty sad that the guy who doesnt cheat gets slammed on for not doing a better job of babysitting the cheater.

[Ronzo]

I don't agree with PepperTurbo's contention either, but saying he had not been paid because he had cheated is really out of line.

[golfortennis]

[quote name='Lefty Putt Righty' post='1846196' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:08 PM']How so, the guy basically said no matter how bad the guy cheated, one should pay. Thats why i said we should play and ill cheat so bad he has no chance of winning, and ill expect payment for my unearned victory, then we will see how he feels

Plus i made a speculation based on his attitude toward the scenario, i didnt slam him, call him names, or anything like that.

Its pretty sad that the guy who doesnt cheat gets slammed on for not doing a better job of babysitting the cheater.[/quote]


Plus the fact that "the cheater should get paid" sounds painfully ironic coming from someone who in the "hit into at private club" thread was very verbose in informing everyone how he has been in positions of power to ensure member behavior conformed to certain standards. Lecturing on proper behaviour in one thread, supporting cheating in another.....hmmm....