Tending the flag rules

[amtrac24]

when you have to pull it, etc.

played with someone today and he was pulling out some crazy rules that are in regards of tending the flag.
Can someone explain the rules of pulling the flag?

Do you need to pull it if someone is off the green? Can't you just leave it in? Is it the players choice on what he wants to do?
Obviously if you are putting the flag needs to be pulled?

Thanks for the clarification guys.

[stpb21]

A player can choose to have the flag "tended" if he is playing from on the green, it just has to be pulled obviously. If for some strange reason the person tending the flag did not pull it or the ball played from on the green somehow struck the flag the player would incur a 2 stroke penalty. The flag cannot be tended from off the green, it has to be either left in or taken out for the extent of the shot.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='stpb21' post='1923129' date='Aug 30 2009, 03:55 PM']A player can choose to have the flag "tended" if he is playing from on the green, it just has to be pulled obviously. If for some strange reason the person tending the flag did not pull it or the ball played from on the green somehow struck the flag the player would incur a 2 stroke penalty. [b]The flag cannot be tended from off the green, it has to be either left in or taken out for the extent of the shot.[/b][/quote]

Might want to rethink the last part of your answer.

Kevin

[amtrac24]

So lets say someone is chipping and cannot see the hole. They elect to leave the flag in but the caddy cannot pull it once the player strikes the ball?

[stpb21]

Let me reword that: the flag cannot be tended for a player who is playing a shot from off the green.

And that's right...if a player is chipping from off the green and cannot see the hole and elects to leave the flag in, the flag must be left in for the extent of the shot.

[mat562]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='1923138' date='Aug 30 2009, 09:59 PM'][quote name='stpb21' post='1923129' date='Aug 30 2009, 03:55 PM'] [b]The flag cannot be tended from off the green, it has to be either left in or taken out for the extent of the shot.[/b][/quote]

Might want to rethink the last part of your answer.
[/quote]

Is that you Mr Hagen?

[mat562]

The flag can be tended at any time through the green.

If a player cannot see the hole, the rules actually allow a player, caddie or playing partner to hold the flag aloft to assist the golfer in sighting his shot.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='stpb21' post='1923153' date='Aug 30 2009, 04:05 PM']Let me reword that: [b]the flag cannot be tended for a player who is playing a shot from off the green.[/b]

And that's right...if a player is chipping from off the green and cannot see the hole and elects to leave the flag in, the flag must be left in for the extent of the shot.[/quote]

Keep trying!

Kevin

[KevCarter]

[b]17-1. Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up[/b]

[b]Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.[/b]
If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player's ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.

Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

Note 2: If, prior to the stroke, the flagstick is attended, removed or held up by anyone with the player's knowledge and he makes no objection, the player is deemed to have authorized it.

Note 3: If anyone attends or holds up the flagstick while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick until the ball comes to rest.

(Moving attended, removed or held up flagstick while ball in motion - see Rule 24-1.)

[Tmiller72]

Damn, I was late getting in on this one. As usual Kev is right on.

[OpusX20]

[quote name='Tmiller72' post='1923202' date='Aug 30 2009, 04:37 PM']Damn, I was late getting in on this one. As usual Kev is right on.[/quote]

Kevin is always right on, because he actually opens the rule book rather than making up rules out of thin air. It seems like every rules thread has at least one guy who prefers to respond using "urban legends" (thanks to midas), rather than the actual Rules of Golf.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='midasmulligan2000' post='1923208' date='Aug 30 2009, 04:41 PM'][quote name='kevcarter ' post='1923164' date='Aug 30 2009, 05:13 PM'][b]17-1. Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up[/b]

Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.

[b]If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player's ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.[/b]

Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

Note 2: If, prior to the stroke, the flagstick is attended, removed or held up by anyone with the player's knowledge and he makes no objection, the player is deemed to have authorized it.

Note 3: If anyone attends or holds up the flagstick while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick until the ball comes to rest.

(Moving attended, removed or held up flagstick while ball in motion - see Rule 24-1.)[/quote]

Yes ... there's absolutely nothing about needing to leave the pin in once a shot is initiated from off the green. The flag can be tended, or not tended, regardless of where one is.

Once the ball is on the green, there's a penalty if it hits the flagstick (i.e., the flag has to be removed - or the flagstick will be hit as the ball goes in the hole) ... but there's no such penalty from off the green.

I [i]have[/i] heard people now and then believing that you have to either take it out or leave it in from off the green, but I've never completely understood where that urban legend came from.

[b]Possibly, from a nuance of the Rule ... the flag has to be in the process of being tended [i]before[/i] the shot is struck ... i.e., the flag cannot be unattended, have a caddy see the ball moving in a particular way, and then run up to the pin to yank the flag at the last moment.[/b]
[/quote]

Not a nuance, it's there in black and white!

[b]If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player's ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.[/b]


Kevin

[ASK3L]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='1923219' date='Aug 30 2009, 05:55 PM'][quote name='midasmulligan2000' post='1923208' date='Aug 30 2009, 04:41 PM'][quote name='kevcarter ' post='1923164' date='Aug 30 2009, 05:13 PM'][b]17-1. Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up[/b]

Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.

[b]If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player's ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.[/b]

Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

Note 2: If, prior to the stroke, the flagstick is attended, removed or held up by anyone with the player's knowledge and he makes no objection, the player is deemed to have authorized it.

Note 3: If anyone attends or holds up the flagstick while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick until the ball comes to rest.

(Moving attended, removed or held up flagstick while ball in motion - see Rule 24-1.)[/quote]

Yes ... there's absolutely nothing about needing to leave the pin in once a shot is initiated from off the green. The flag can be tended, or not tended, regardless of where one is.

Once the ball is on the green, there's a penalty if it hits the flagstick (i.e., the flag has to be removed - or the flagstick will be hit as the ball goes in the hole) ... but there's no such penalty from off the green.

I [i]have[/i] heard people now and then believing that you have to either take it out or leave it in from off the green, but I've never completely understood where that urban legend came from.

[b]Possibly, from a nuance of the Rule ... the flag has to be in the process of being tended [i]before[/i] the shot is struck ... i.e., the flag cannot be unattended, have a caddy see the ball moving in a particular way, and then run up to the pin to yank the flag at the last moment.[/b]
[/quote]

Not a nuance, it's there in black and white!

[b]If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player's ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.[/b]


Kevin
[/quote]

Good to see you are still keeping people right Kev, a shame it seems some just don't listen

[mat562]

As my old nan used to say: [i]There's none so blind as them that won't listen.[/i]

[KMeloney]

[quote name='amtrac24' post='1923124' date='Aug 30 2009, 04:44 PM']played with someone today and he was pulling out some crazy rules that are in regards of tending the flag.
Can someone explain the rules of pulling the flag?

Do you need to pull it if someone is off the green? Can't you just leave it in? Is it the players choice on what he wants to do?
Obviously if you are putting the flag needs to be pulled?

Thanks for the clarification guys.[/quote]

At this point, I'd really like to know what kinds of "rules" your partner was throwing out there. What was he saying?

[amtrac24]

It was a 3-some. My buddy and I and a stranger that they paired us with. I was chipping from about 5 ft off the green. I told my buddy to leave the stick in bc he was right near the flag marking his ball and had asked me. I actually chipped it in and the peanut gallery said that is a stroke penalty bc my buddy didn't pull the flag. He was yapping that bc there was someone near the flag that it [b]has[/b] to be pulled.
I didnt have a rule book on me and I wasn't 100% positive on the rule myself.

[mat562]

100% [i]it must be right because a bloke in the pub who used to play a bit told me that it was right a few years ago[/i] twaddle.

The bloke's probably one of those people who loudly proclaim that a police constable is legally obliged to allow a pregant woman to urinate into his helmet on demand and that a speeding ticket doesn't count unless the plod has got his cap on.

Got to love the old urban myth pedallers who just make it all up as they go along.

[BigPete]

"I think you'll find, it's legal tender pal!"


BTW Thanks guys - I also thought you couldn't tend from off the green - ah well, you live and learn.

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='amtrac24' post='1924700' date='Aug 31 2009, 01:08 PM']It was a 3-some. My buddy and I and a stranger that they paired us with. I was chipping from about 5 ft off the green. I told my buddy to leave the stick in bc he was right near the flag marking his ball and had asked me. I actually chipped it in and the peanut gallery said that is a stroke penalty bc my buddy didn't pull the flag. He was yapping that bc there was someone near the flag that it [b]has[/b] to be pulled.
I didnt have a rule book on me and I wasn't 100% positive on the rule myself.[/quote]

I think, and I'm not sure on this one that he's wrong here. The rule says if someone is standing near to the flagstick when you play your shot, then they are deemed to be attending the flag. That's in Kev's post earlier in the thread. That on its own would suggest that you should receive a penalty (two strokes methinks, not one). However, since you told him not to attend it, I think that counts as meaning that he's not attending it, though I'm not sure about this one. If he is still considered to be attending it, then I think he receives a two stroke penalty (Rule 17-2). What I don't know is whether you saying not to attend it and him still standing near to the flag means that it was not attended or it was attended, but without authority. Either way, you receive no penalty.

[Baxpin]

It's amazing how many people I play with believe you cannot have the flag tended when you're off the green. It seems like everytime I'm putting from the fringe, and I ask for a tend, the next response is almost always "I can't, you're off the green", or some kind of funny look.

[mat562]

In my book, if I say to someone standing near - however near - to the flagstick 'leave it in' and they give me some acknowledgement that they are doing precisely that, then whether they're within a yard or within a furlong of it, they aren't attending it; and if the ball goes in it's all to the good.

Rule 17 is ambiguous as regards what constitutes being 'near' the flag. If someone verbally states that they aren't attending the flag, however close they may be to it, then that's good enough for me and, as far as I'm concerned, also for the competition committee.

[Newby]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' post='1925199' date='Aug 31 2009, 10:02 PM']However, since you told him not to attend it, I think that counts as meaning that he's not attending it, though I'm not sure about this one.[/quote]


Correct. He has not authorised the other player to attend the flagstick.