dent on green 2" from hole (SOL?)

[cb_golfer]

indentation made by flag pole

Can you fix an indentation caused by the flag pole? Someone completely missed the hole and jammed the pole into the ground causing a dent right in front of the hole. Or can you only fix ball marks?

edit: made the title clearer

[grabthepin]

You can fix such an indent only if a Committee member isn't readily available to do it.

[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#16-1a/6"]Decision 16-1a/6[/url]

[cb_golfer]

Actually, the indentation was about an 2" in front of the hole. The actual "hole" was fine. It was deep enough that it was knocking putts off line.

[grabthepin]

Ah, I see. SOL I'm afraid.

[size=1][b]16-1c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage[/b]
The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced.

There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.[/size]

[Newby]

It should be repaired after your group has finished putting.

[Sawgrass]

How could you tell that the indentation wasn't made from a ball landing, and therefore repairable? Isn't the end of the pin about the size of a ball?

[cb_golfer]

The person tending the flag placed the pole right over the dent and it was pretty obvious.

[Hateto3Putt]

[center]::begin rant::[/center]

Not being able to repair anything but ball marks on the green is one of the stupidest rules of the game. I think you should be permitted to repair any green damage. At any time. Not just when you're done. Spike marks, shoe scuffs, flagpole dents... anything, anytime.

I'll live with it, but I sure don't like it.

I[s] hope[/s] know that dent was fixed by the time you guys left the green.

One more thing while I'm ranting.... What's with those idiots spitting sunflower shells? I swear if I ever see that yumyum spitting those things out, I'll freaking kill him!

[center]::end rant::[/center]

[Sawgrass]

The person tending the flag placed the pole right over the dent and it was pretty obvious.

 

 

I didn't realize from your original post that the damage happened as you were standing there. I believe this changes things considerably. Was the person you saw damaging your line a competitor or his/her caddie? If so:

 

16-1a/13 Line of Putt Damaged Accidentally by Opponent, Fellow-Competitor or Their Caddies

 

Q. An opponent, fellow-competitor or one of their caddies accidentally steps on and damages the player's line of putt. What is the ruling?

 

A. There is no penalty. Rule 1-2 is not applicable.

 

In equity (Rule 1-4), the player may have the line of putt restored to its original condition.

 

The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

 

If it is not possible to restore the line of putt, the player would be justified in requesting the Committee to grant relief. If the damage is severe enough, the Committee may declare the area to be ground under repair, in which case the competitor may take relief under Rule 25-1b(iii).

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='1979931' date='Sep 30 2009, 10:19 AM'][quote name='cb_golfer' post='1979852' date='Sep 30 2009, 10:38 AM']The person tending the flag placed the pole right over the dent and it was pretty obvious.[/quote]


I didn't realize from your original post that the damage happened as you were standing there. I believe this changes things considerably. Was the person you saw damaging your line a competitor or his/her caddie? If so:

[/quote]

It seems to me that he means that they placed the flag over the hole to see if it was indeed the flag that caused the damage, instead of a ball. I dont think he was saying that someone in his group caused the damage while they were on the green, but I could be wrong.

[mat562]

[quote name='Hateto3Putt' post='1979929' date='Sep 30 2009, 04:18 PM'][center]::begin rant::[/center]

Not being able to repair anything but ball marks on the green is one of the stupidest rules of the game.
[center]::end rant::[/center][/quote]


Save a place for me at that table.

[volrus]

[quote name='mat562' post='1981154' date='Sep 30 2009, 09:00 PM'][quote name='Hateto3Putt' post='1979929' date='Sep 30 2009, 04:18 PM'][center]::begin rant::[/center]

Not being able to repair anything but ball marks on the green is one of the stupidest rules of the game.
[center]::end rant::[/center][/quote]


Save a place for me at that table.
[/quote]


Me too! Do any of you historians know the reason why this is a rule? I'm sure there's some logical reason that dates back to the early days...please tell me there is.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='volrus' post='1981163' date='Sep 30 2009, 10:04 PM'][quote name='mat562' post='1981154' date='Sep 30 2009, 09:00 PM'][quote name='Hateto3Putt' post='1979929' date='Sep 30 2009, 04:18 PM'][center]::begin rant::[/center]

Not being able to repair anything but ball marks on the green is one of the stupidest rules of the game.
[center]::end rant::[/center][/quote]


Save a place for me at that table.
[/quote]


Me too! Do any of you historians know the reason why this is a rule? I'm sure there's some logical reason that dates back to the early days...please tell me there is.
[/quote]

I had been told that the reason for the rule was speed of play -- that you might repeatedly fix more and more minor imperfections if there were no limits. Never made sense to me though, given the fact that you can spend as much time as you want doing other trivial things up until the point where the group behind you starts yelling at you, or in the case of the PGA Tour when a rules official puts you on the clock.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='bigred90gt' post='1981062' date='Sep 30 2009, 09:06 PM'][quote name='Sawgrass' post='1979931' date='Sep 30 2009, 10:19 AM'][quote name='cb_golfer' post='1979852' date='Sep 30 2009, 10:38 AM']The person tending the flag placed the pole right over the dent and it was pretty obvious.[/quote]


I didn't realize from your original post that the damage happened as you were standing there. I believe this changes things considerably. Was the person you saw damaging your line a competitor or his/her caddie? If so:

[/quote]

It seems to me that he means that they placed the flag over the hole to see if it was indeed the flag that caused the damage, instead of a ball. I dont think he was saying that someone in his group caused the damage while they were on the green, but I could be wrong.
[/quote]

I see what you mean, perhaps the damage occured in an earlier group. I wonder how the Tour would handle this, if a player slammed the stick into the ground and then left the damage there for the next group? I guess just play it as it lies, but it really wouldn't seem fair to me. (Nor apparently to the other folks above who are critical of the rule.) The mistake of leaving spike marks is one thing, but leaving this sort of intentional damage, or at least obvious damage, is quite another.

[cb_golfer]

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='1981337' date='Sep 30 2009, 08:23 PM'][quote name='bigred90gt' post='1981062' date='Sep 30 2009, 09:06 PM'][quote name='Sawgrass' post='1979931' date='Sep 30 2009, 10:19 AM'][quote name='cb_golfer' post='1979852' date='Sep 30 2009, 10:38 AM']The person tending the flag placed the pole right over the dent and it was pretty obvious.[/quote]


I didn't realize from your original post that the damage happened as you were standing there. I believe this changes things considerably. Was the person you saw damaging your line a competitor or his/her caddie? If so:

[/quote]

It seems to me that he means that they placed the flag over the hole to see if it was indeed the flag that caused the damage, instead of a ball. I dont think he was saying that someone in his group caused the damage while they were on the green, but I could be wrong.
[/quote]

I see what you mean, perhaps the damage occured in an earlier group. I wonder how the Tour would handle this, if a player slammed the stick into the ground and then left the damage there for the next group? I guess just play it as it lies, but it really wouldn't seem fair to me. (Nor apparently to the other folks above who are critical of the rule.) The mistake of leaving spike marks is one thing, but leaving this sort of intentional damage, or at least obvious damage, is quite another.
[/quote]

bigred you're correct. We were just confirming that it wasn't a ball mark. I fixed it after we holed out. That's not a penalty, right?

[OpusX20]

[quote name='volrus' post='1981163' date='Sep 30 2009, 09:04 PM'][quote name='mat562' post='1981154' date='Sep 30 2009, 09:00 PM'][quote name='Hateto3Putt' post='1979929' date='Sep 30 2009, 04:18 PM'][center]::begin rant::[/center]

Not being able to repair anything but ball marks on the green is one of the stupidest rules of the game.
[center]::end rant::[/center][/quote]


Save a place for me at that table.
[/quote]


Me too! Do any of you historians know the reason why this is a rule? I'm sure there's some logical reason that dates back to the early days...please tell me there is.
[/quote]

Amazingly, this rule doesn't go back that far in history. A specific section of the Rules for the putting green wasn't even added until the 1950's. At that point, you were allowed to fix ball marks, but not until after you holed out. (Can you imagine?) It wasn't until 1972 when they changed Rule 35 (the Putting Green section back then instead of Rule 16) to allow you to repair ball marks before holing out. At the time, that was a huge concession in the Rules. The part about what is now Rule 16-1c that specifically prohibits repairing other damage was actually not added until 1992. So, really the Rules are actually quite a bit more liberal than the were in the not too distant past.

[grabthepin]

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='1981337' date='Sep 30 2009, 11:23 PM']I wonder how the Tour would handle this, if a player slammed the stick into the ground and then left the damage there for the next group? I guess just play it as it lies, but it really wouldn't seem fair to me.[/quote]

If officialdom saw it, I'd say they'd either fix it if possible or declare it GUR.

[golfortennis]

[quote name='OpusX20' post='1981391' date='Sep 30 2009, 11:50 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='1981163' date='Sep 30 2009, 09:04 PM'][quote name='mat562' post='1981154' date='Sep 30 2009, 09:00 PM'][quote name='Hateto3Putt' post='1979929' date='Sep 30 2009, 04:18 PM'][center]::begin rant::[/center]

Not being able to repair anything but ball marks on the green is one of the stupidest rules of the game.
[center]::end rant::[/center][/quote]


Save a place for me at that table.
[/quote]


Me too! Do any of you historians know the reason why this is a rule? I'm sure there's some logical reason that dates back to the early days...please tell me there is.
[/quote]

Amazingly, this rule doesn't go back that far in history. A specific section of the Rules for the putting green wasn't even added until the 1950's. At that point, you were allowed to fix ball marks, but not until after you holed out. (Can you imagine?) [b]It wasn't until 1972 when they changed Rule 35 (the Putting Green section back then instead of Rule 16) to allow you to repair ball marks before holing out.[/b] At the time, that was a huge concession in the Rules. The part about what is now Rule 16-1c that specifically prohibits repairing other damage was actually not added until 1992. So, really the Rules are actually quite a bit more liberal than the were in the not too distant past.
[/quote]

Cue up the "Nicklaus would have won more majors had he been able to fix ballmarks before '72" arguments......

On second thought, please don't...this was just a joke.

[bermuda]

In reading the other rules about what you can't do on the green, I figured that you can't repair spike marks because a player conceivably while doing so could (a) test the putting surface, and (b) tamp down a "trench" for his ball to follow to the hole.

Spike marks, tufts of grass, footprints, Dave Pelz' "lumpy donut" all seem to fall under play it as it lies and rub of the green. Just my guess.

[Newby]

Since it is not always possible to distinguish spike marks from other damage or irregularities of surface, allowing the repair of spike marks would, in effect, entail permitting any damage or irregularity of surface on the putting green to be repaired. This is contrary to the fundamental principle of "playing the course as you find it" and it would undoubtedly lead to an increase of slow play as players attempt to perfect their line of putt.

[Hateto3Putt]

This is contrary to the fundamental principle of "playing the course as you find it" and it would undoubtedly lead to an increase of slow play as players attempt to perfect their line of putt.

 

Maybe.

 

As far as playing it as you found it, shouldn't the last tee time of the day experience greens in comparable conditions to the first groups greens?

 

And, if everyone repaired imperfections as they make and encounter them, the putting lines wouldn't need that much more perfecting.

 

IMO, Slow players are slow no matter what. Nothing will change their pace, but that's a whole nuther rant...

[Newby]

[quote name='Hateto3Putt' post='1984722' date='Oct 3 2009, 12:36 AM'][quote name='Newby' post='1984483' date='Oct 2 2009, 05:54 PM']This is contrary to the fundamental principle of "playing the course as you find it" and it would undoubtedly lead to an increase of slow play as players attempt to perfect their line of putt.[/quote]

Maybe.

As far as playing it as you found it, shouldn't the last tee time of the day experience greens in comparable conditions to the first groups greens?

[/quote]

Well that would work if you could stop the grass growing during daylight and put the greens in an aircraft hanger to stop them getting wet in heavy rain.

Incidentally, I have sometimes wondered if the rule was introduced because if players were not allowed to repair them before putting, they would never get repaired

[Tupperwolf]

If you guys ever read 'The Greatest Game Ever Played', the inability to fix ball marks used to make a huge difference to the game. There are many references to players having to try and chip or putt over their own ball mark on the green.

IMO players should be able to fix any damage to the surface of the green prior to putting. The green is special, it's not a bunker, where being in a footprint sucks, but is just part of being in a hazard. On a green, it's expected that you should have a smooth roll.

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='bermuda' post='1984115' date='Oct 2 2009, 01:02 PM']In reading the other rules about what you can't do on the green, I figured that you can't repair spike marks because a player conceivably while doing so could (a) test the putting surface, and (b) tamp down a "trench" for his ball to follow to the hole.

Spike marks, tufts of grass, footprints, Dave Pelz' "lumpy donut" all seem to fall under play it as it lies and rub of the green. Just my guess. [/quote]So then what is the justification for allowing someone to fix ball marks?


[quote name='Newby' post='1984483' date='Oct 2 2009, 04:54 PM']Since it is not always possible to distinguish spike marks from other damage or irregularities of surface, allowing the repair of spike marks would, in effect, entail permitting any damage or irregularity of surface on the putting green to be repaired. This is contrary to the fundamental principle of "playing the course as you find it" and it would undoubtedly lead to an increase of slow play as players attempt to perfect their line of putt.[/quote]Playing the course as you find it is great, if the people in front of you dont tear it up when they find it. I wish I could have taken a pic of the green I saw the other day. I think even the person most adamantly supporting this rule, would agree that something needed to be done. There were literally hundreds of spike marks within a 10' radius of the hole, on about 6 or 7 greens.