Miura, Kyoei Golf, Epon

[deman77]

tried epon, kzg, tourstage, mizuno and miura. for feel liked them all - can't go wrong with either, but bought miura because of the look at address and the finish. don't know if it's the heads or the kwok magic but 6m on I'm still on the honeymoon - very special.

[golftroy]

If you do the research, you will find out that Tim never played on the Nationwide Tour. You cannot believe everything that everyone tells you. You also should not believe everything else you are told about Tim and who he is claimed to fit (tour pros).

[quote name='B Keller' timestamp='1262500092' post='2157505']
[quote name='Geohans' post='2157429' date='Jan 2 2010, 11:40 PM']Keller, where/how/who is setting you up with the opportunity to hit all that stuff?[/quote]
I am going to a place in Euless, TX called The Golf Station. It is run by a former Nationwide Tour player named Tim Brantley. He is a founding member of something called the International Professional Association of ClubFitters (IPAC) and has been rated a top 100 club fitter by KZG since 2007, which is when he opened his business. Basically when he missed a cut he would hang out in a tour van and learn all about club making and fitting.

He is a authorized dealer for Muira, Scratch, KZG, Epon, Vega, Tom Wishon, and at least one other Japanese brand I can't remember right now. He also has some Piretti putters. I spent about 2.5 hours in his shop today talking and hitting irons and hybrids. I got my iron, hybrids, and wedges set today.

I am going back next week to watch my set get put together and also do my woods/putter/ball fitting. I am spending more money than I intended, but I can play these clubs until I am a single digit HC. He told me that he has guys come in and have their old stuff re-grooved because they don't want to upgrade. Apparently some local pro players go here too.

EDIT: added Vega to brands offered.
[/quote]

[Guest]

Epon aftour black is the ultimate. There is no softer iron. I've had 2 sets of miura blades (07 and 09 models) and these epons take the prize.

[rjklein4470]

You so need to post pictures of those!

[OldSkoolTexan]

First off, someone edit devlin's post to close the tag that is making everything BOLD and italic! It's killin me!!! <br><br>Second, I hear from a trusted source that the Kyoei posted above, with the fruity circles and busy muscle, feel better than Miura. The almost zero offset Hakusa X Blade, Kyoei forgings, may be something to keep an eye on....

[JHCHOP]

Late to this party, but what the heck.

I game/vote Vega Raw 01's - RAFC-01, and they are just plain sick. Vega only made about 150 sets of these world wide, so kind of rare. Quality is second to none. Feel is beyond smooth, especially given it is a raw forging with no nickel or chrome layers.

[agolfman]

Vega CB's here. Clean set up, great feel and scary straight.

[tbowles411]

I just ordered Vega VC03 irons, courtest of Tim Brantley @ The Golf Station. When I get them and put them in play, I'll post a review!

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/508705-customer-service-texas-style/

[mljones99]

my only experience with Japanese makes is my Miura black series wedges. I'm so impressed with the feel of these wedges that I am seriously considering a set of Miura CB-501 irons next year.

[Extreme Firepower]

[quote name='FairwayFred' timestamp='1262275423' post='2152606']
[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='2152562' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:44 AM'][quote name='OutOfBounds' post='2152541' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:31 AM'] DOES THIS NOW MEAN, THAT SCRATCH IRONS & WEDGES ARE NOT FORGED ?

How would one KNOW that IRONS are actually FORGED - okay, okay - besides the FEEL ?[/quote]
Scratch irons and wedges are forged by Ishihara-Shoten in Hemiji Japan, all our clubs say forged 1018 or forged in Japan right on them .

The material for one is a good way to tell. True carbon steel is virtually always forged. The stuff made from 8620 is "form forged" and closer to casting than a true forging. Adams is the only major OEM I believe "forging" 8620 irons currently, Cleveland has in the past. While not truly forged they will still feel pretty good. All other irons made by Major OEMs that say forged are forged.
[/quote]

8620 is not really Carbon Steel it is a steel alloy that the golf industry has nicknamed "8620 Carbon Steel" as a marketing term. You cannot truly forge 8620 steel. You also cannot cast a true 10_ _ series carbon steel. If it is made from 8620 it is cast if it made from a carbon steel that starts with 10 and has 2 numbers after that it is true forged.
[/quote]

Principal Design Feature: AISI 8620 is a hardenable chromium, molybdenum, nickel low alloy steel often used for carburizing to develop a case-hardened part. This case-hardening will result in good wear characteristics.

Forging: The alloy may be forged at 2200 F down to 1800 F prior to the hardening heat treatment or carburizing.

[chuckw]

[quote name='Extreme Firepower' timestamp='1314479162' post='3523789']
[quote name='FairwayFred' timestamp='1262275423' post='2152606']
[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='2152562' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:44 AM'][quote name='OutOfBounds' post='2152541' date='Dec 31 2009, 10:31 AM'] DOES THIS NOW MEAN, THAT SCRATCH IRONS & WEDGES ARE NOT FORGED ?

How would one KNOW that IRONS are actually FORGED - okay, okay - besides the FEEL ?[/quote]
Scratch irons and wedges are forged by Ishihara-Shoten in Hemiji Japan, all our clubs say forged 1018 or forged in Japan right on them .

The material for one is a good way to tell. True carbon steel is virtually always forged. The stuff made from 8620 is "form forged" and closer to casting than a true forging. Adams is the only major OEM I believe "forging" 8620 irons currently, Cleveland has in the past. While not truly forged they will still feel pretty good. All other irons made by Major OEMs that say forged are forged.
[/quote]

8620 is not really Carbon Steel it is a steel alloy that the golf industry has nicknamed "8620 Carbon Steel" as a marketing term. You cannot truly forge 8620 steel. You also cannot cast a true 10_ _ series carbon steel. If it is made from 8620 it is cast if it made from a carbon steel that starts with 10 and has 2 numbers after that it is true forged.
[/quote]

Principal Design Feature: AISI 8620 is a hardenable chromium, molybdenum, nickel low alloy steel often used for carburizing to develop a case-hardened part. This case-hardening will result in good wear characteristics.

Forging: The alloy may be forged at 2200 F down to 1800 F prior to the hardening heat treatment or carburizing.
[/quote]

So, not to put too fine a point on it, but you are saying that 8620 can indeed be forged (contrary to what had been previously stated). I guess if 8620 could not be forged some club makers would be lying to us by stamping "forged" on these clubs.

[philophob]

[quote name='mljones99' timestamp='1314375066' post='3521071']
my only experience with Japanese makes is my Miura black series wedges. I'm so impressed with the feel of these wedges that I am seriously considering a set of Miura CB-501 irons next year.
[/quote]

I have hit some Vega and almost all Miura irons, MC-102, CB-202, CB-501, TB, K wedge, Satin wedge, HB3 hybrid, Precious edition driver...

I have been gaming Mizunos (MP58) before I tested and got fitted with Miura.

When I first hit Miura irons, it just felt so different and unique. My first impression was like "did I really hit the ball?" It felt so soft and smooth.

I am about 15 hdcp depending on the temperature and humidity of the day(? lol) and I recently bought MC-102 with NS PRO 1050GH shafts.

But as most have said, it is like whatever floats your boat. However, definitely try Miura clubs if you are looking to invest in Japanese golf clubs.

[Extreme Firepower]

[quote name='chuckw' timestamp='1314483898' post='3523924']

So, not to put too fine a point on it, but you are saying that 8620 can indeed be forged (contrary to what had been previously stated). I guess if 8620 could not be forged some club makers would be lying to us by stamping "forged" on these clubs.
[/quote]

The metallurgy states it can be forged.

I think the original poster stated it can't be truly forged, you should ask them what they mean by that statement because if you type 'AISI 8620 forging' into google you'll find lots of hits:

Alloy Steel 8620

Principal Design Features
AISI 8620 is a hardenable chromium, molybdenum, nickel low alloy steel often used for carburizing to develop a case-hardened part. This case-hardening will result in good wear characteristics.
Applications
In the carburized condition this alloy is used for gears, ring gears, shafts and crankshafts.
Machinability
Machining is done prior to carburizing to within as close a tolerance as possible. Finish machining, after heat treatment and/or carburizing, should be at a minimum so as not to impair the hardened case of the part. Machining may be done by conventional means prior to heat treatment - after carburizing machining is usually limited to grinding.
Forming
Forming characteristics of 8620 alloy are good in the annealed condition.
Welding
The alloy may be welded by conventional methods, usually gas or arc welding. Preheating at 400 F is beneficial and subsequent heating after welding is recommended - consult the approved weld procedure for the method used.
Heat Treatment
This alloy may be hardened by heating to 1500 F followed by a water quench. Carburize at 1650 to 1700 F in an appropriate carburizing medium and oil quench to harden. Improved carburized case and core properties can be obtained by furnace cooling from carburizing at 1650 - 1700 F and then reheating to 1575 F.
[b]Forging
The alloy may be forged at 2200 F down to 1800 F prior to the hardening heat treatment or carburizing.[/b]
Hot Working
Hot working may be accomplished prior to hardening or carburizing. Consult the alloy supplier for information as to temperatures.
Cold Working
The alloy may be cold worked in the annealed condition by conventional methods. Cold working, as with machining, should be done to as close a tolerance as possible before heat treatment or carburizing.
Annealing
AISI 8620 may be given a full anneal at 1550 F and slow cooling at not more than 50 F per hour down to 850 F. From there it may be air cooled.
Aging
Not applicable to this alloy.
Tempering
Tempering of carburized parts is done at 250 to 300 F and this will result in the alloy having a core strength of approximately 135 ksi minimum with Rockwell C case hardness of 90.
Hardening
Hardening is done by oil quench from 1675 F. See "Heat Treatment". Carburizing is accomplished at the same 1650 to 1700 F range in a carburizing "pack" or environment, followed by oil quench for thin sections
Other Comments
This alloy is typically used for carburized parts where a hardened case is desired for wear resistance.
Density: 0.283
Specific Gravity: 7.8
Specific Heat: 0.1
Melting Point: 2600
Thermal Conductivity: 26
MCTE: 6.6
MoETensile: 31

[mouchosse]

I've been said that SCRATCH would stop their 1018 wedge and irons ?

[Swoosh-Thud]

What I found very surprising is despite how soft the Miuras feel, bending them is a different story. I haven't bent my other irons in a while, but just bent my TBs sunday. IIRC though, bending my Miuras took more effort than when I bent my Hogans, Mizunos or '05 Racs.

[Scratch2Plus]

[quote name='Swoosh-Thud' timestamp='1314818013' post='3532457']
What I found very surprising is despite how soft the Miuras feel, bending them is a different story. I haven't bent my other irons in a while, but just bent my TBs sunday. IIRC though, bending my Miuras took more effort than when I bent my Hogans, Mizunos or '05 Racs.
[/quote]

LoL...Thats exactly my experience with the CB 202's when I had them. Had my clubmaker check and adjust my pw and he was like wtf?? I thought Miuras were soft?

[neilc]

[quote name='3GWrX09' timestamp='1315092778' post='3539994']
[quote name='Swoosh-Thud' timestamp='1314818013' post='3532457']
What I found very surprising is despite how soft the Miuras feel, bending them is a different story. I haven't bent my other irons in a while, but just bent my TBs sunday. IIRC though, bending my Miuras took more effort than when I bent my Hogans, Mizunos or '05 Racs.
[/quote]

LoL...Thats exactly my experience with the CB 202's when I had them. Had my clubmaker check and adjust my pw and he was like wtf?? I thought Miuras were soft?
[/quote]


because of the welded hozel>?

[shintajay]

Have gamed Wishon, KZG evolutions, Calloway Forged, and now Miura 102. From my limited experiance, the wishon limited black felt very soft, a little spongy. The KZG were not as soft but I liked the progression, didn't like the wedges though. Got a very old set of Forged blades by Calloway. I was told by Callaway, it was made for a pro back in the 90s. These were the best felling forged clubs I used, but because it is blades its not very forgiving. I just got the 102, it felt just as solid as my Calloway but much higher ball flt, and much more forgiving. Might be the shaft too but the 102 are my current set I game. I noticed a club to 1/2 club longer per loft. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the top brands.

[Ez156]

KZG forged Blade iron is the best kept secret out there hands down! I was recommended this club due to my steep swing. Never heard of KZG before this.

[boggyshmoe]

Just posted this on another thread. Nevertheless....[color=#1C2837][size=2]I cannot speak highly enough about my new 501's. Here is my story. In early July I spent 2 hours with Joe Colon of JC's Custom Clubs in Manahawkin, NJ on an outdoor range for an irons fitting. I hit the 501's, 202's, 301's, pp9003's, scratch, akira and the fourteens. I had been playing Nike Tour Combos reg steel and was very very happy with them. At the end of the fitting in my mind it came down to the 501's, 301's or scratch and according to the launch monitor it was hands down the 501's. So I purchased the 5-9 501's and bought two scratch ss grind wedges 53 & 58, all with tour concept graffite reg frequency matched and spined shafts with golf pride multi compound grips for $225.00 a club ($185.00 each for the scratch wedges). Received them in mid august and have dropped from a 16 to a 13 handicap and won my flight in my club championship by 10 strokes. I have been so happy with these clubs that I just purchased the 3 and 4 irons and have put my hybrids in the garage for now. I think they are worth every penny. Dan Ewald, Killington, Vermont [size=2][color=#6E6E6E][b]0[/b][/color][/size][list][*][/list][/size][/color]

[Swisstrader98]

I just went for a fitting at Novo Golf and hit just about everything forged. Th Epon's were far and away the softest and most accurate irons. Prior to my fitting I had never heard of Epon and in fact had my mind made up that I would be taking home Miura tournament blacks.

Hit the Miuras side by side and besides what trakman told me, there was no comparison between the two. I love the marshmallow on a stick feeling that the Epon 502's gave me. The Miuras were harsh in comparison which really surprised me. I do like the setup better with the Miuras but can't deny what I felt after hitting a ton of balls pure with the Epons.

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='Swisstrader' timestamp='1317832675' post='3628711']
I just went for a fitting at Novo Golf and hit just about everything forged. Th Epon's were far and away the softest and most accurate irons. Prior to my fitting I had never heard of Epon and in fact had my mind made up that I would be taking home Miura tournament blacks.

Hit the Miuras side by side and besides what trakman told me, there was no comparison between the two. I love the marshmallow on a stick feeling that the Epon 502's gave me. The Miuras were harsh in comparison which really surprised me. I do like the setup better with the Miuras but can't deny what I felt after hitting a ton of balls pure with the Epons.
[/quote]
Did you hit the AF Tours?

[Swisstrader98]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1317832910' post='3628745']
[quote name='Swisstrader' timestamp='1317832675' post='3628711']
I just went for a fitting at Novo Golf and hit just about everything forged. Th Epon's were far and away the softest and most accurate irons. Prior to my fitting I had never heard of Epon and in fact had my mind made up that I would be taking home Miura tournament blacks.

Hit the Miuras side by side and besides what trakman told me, there was no comparison between the two. I love the marshmallow on a stick feeling that the Epon 502's gave me. The Miuras were harsh in comparison which really surprised me. I do like the setup better with the Miuras but can't deny what I felt after hitting a ton of balls pure with the Epons.
[/quote]
Did you hit the AF Tours?
[/quote]

Yes, hit the AFtours but they simply did not feel as smooth as the 502's. Loved the look of them, but I think I got a bit scared off by what looks much more like a blade, although many suggest that it's the easiest blade to hit. Also someone on this forum mentioned some concerns wrt the tours that the irons are one club weaker than most other irons out there.

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='Swisstrader' timestamp='1317850659' post='3630389']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1317832910' post='3628745']
[quote name='Swisstrader' timestamp='1317832675' post='3628711']
I just went for a fitting at Novo Golf and hit just about everything forged. Th Epon's were far and away the softest and most accurate irons. Prior to my fitting I had never heard of Epon and in fact had my mind made up that I would be taking home Miura tournament blacks.

Hit the Miuras side by side and besides what trakman told me, there was no comparison between the two. I love the marshmallow on a stick feeling that the Epon 502's gave me. The Miuras were harsh in comparison which really surprised me. I do like the setup better with the Miuras but can't deny what I felt after hitting a ton of balls pure with the Epons.
[/quote]
Did you hit the AF Tours?
[/quote]

Yes, hit the AFtours but they simply did not feel as smooth as the 502's. Loved the look of them, but I think I got a bit scared off by what looks much more like a blade, although many suggest that it's the easiest blade to hit. Also someone on this forum mentioned some concerns wrt the tours that the irons are one club weaker than most other irons out there.
[/quote]
The tours have traditional lofts where the 502's are strong.

[Swisstrader98]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1317851054' post='3630417']
[quote name='Swisstrader' timestamp='1317850659' post='3630389']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1317832910' post='3628745']
[quote name='Swisstrader' timestamp='1317832675' post='3628711']
I just went for a fitting at Novo Golf and hit just about everything forged.Hit the Miuras side by side and besides what trakman told me, there was no comparison between the two. I love the marshmallow on a stick feeling that the Epon 502's gave me. The Miuras were harsh in comparison which really surprised me. I do like the setup better with the Miuras but can't deny what I felt after hitting a ton of balls pure with the Epons.
[/quote]
Did you hit the AF Tours?
[/quote]Yes, hit the AFtours but they simply did not feel as smooth as the 502's. Loved the look of them, but I think I got a bit scared off by what looks much more like a blade, although many suggest that it's the easiest blade to hit. Also someone on this forum mentioned some concerns wrt the tours that the irons are one club weaker than most other irons out there.
[/quote]
The tours have traditional lofts where the 502's are strong.
[/quote]

Just could not get used to the Nike swoosh on back of club


http://www.golfstudio.ie/images/aftour.jpg

[DKC]

+1 on Epons. The best out there.