Tommy Armour 693's

[johnalex444]

need expert opinion

Wow - my first post. I've been a long time reader, but never replied or posted until now. I started collecting vintage clubs last summer when I started playing on Thursdays with my father (65 years) and his high school buddies. Modern sticks tee from the tips, vintage sticks tee second spot from front. Match play, one tie, all tie, with carryovers, double on birdies, 0.25 per hole. Great fun. Now I have a basement room filling up with vintage clubs that I find on ebay and at local thrift stores. My wife thinks I have a problem.
SO - about a month ago I ran across these at a local thift store rack. I believe thay are the real deal but thought I would consult the experts with three questions.#1 - Authentic? - From what I can tell I believe these are mostly original. They may have been refinished long ago, due to the fact that the neck numbers are mostly gone except a very faint one on the driver and the appearance of one on the 2. I can't see anything on the 3 wood. I tried to photograph as best I could.
#2 - what would be the cost of a professional refinish? OR should I keep them in this existing state? ( I know if I got them refinished, it would be hard to not game them at least one time)
#3 - Any thoughts on a real world value? both existing and refinished?
I have included photos that I hope will be helpful. (I have more than can be uploaded, so please let me know if what you need to see)
Thanks all.

Due to the limited photo space, I have moved my photos (including additonal).
Link: http://s864.photobucket.com/albums/ab203/johnalex444/1949%20Tommy%20Armour%20693s%20original%20condition/

[persimmonpal]

What a great find!! Why cant I walk into a thrift store and find a set of 693s???
I dont think they have been refinished per se, but they do appear to have an extra clear coat (old) on them, and at least the 2 wood has had its face "cleaned up" Thankfully the person who did it didn't sand out the stamps.. Take a look at the 2 wood face screws.. they have lines cut through them, which was not the way they were when original.. The toe stamp on the driver looks like it has been sanded a bit, but like I said thankfully is still all there and readable..
I would say value is right around 350.00-500.00.. Tough to say exactly, because the prices brought on eBay never seem to follow any kind of logical pattern... You never know!

[KevCarter]

IMHO, you have stumbled upon one of the best woods ever made. I am very glad you are posting them and looking for help here. Please be sure to speak with guys like Freddie and Persimmon Pal to take the proper next steps in restoring them... WONDERFUL find!

Kevin

[freddiec]

John,
Those are original 1950 Tommy Armour 693 model persimmons. That set is probably in the top 3 of a collectors wish list, considered to be one of the best if not the best MacGregor sets ever made, popular among tour players in the 60s,70s and early 80s. To me they don't look to have been refinished. They are probably just really worn out, but really in outstanding condition because of the lack of rott in the wood and the sweepback sole plates are excellent and the heads are free of any major nicks. I have a 2 wood in that same condition. That set might have also been sold with a 4 wood as well originally. I think the value on that set today as is would be around 200 to 300 I would say. Depending on how well they would be refinished the value usually goes down about 10 to 25 percent from what I've seen. A good refinish job on those would run you somewhere around 100 bucks, but don't quote me on that. Thanks for sharing, you have a great classic set.

[Bella Woods]

Nice find johnalex444!

I don't think those clubs have been refinished either.

I wonder if anybody knows the answer to this.... I have seen 693s that have never been used (and
have a set that have been used very little) that have the same Armour mahogony stain on them as these clubs
do. Yet, the 693T clubs posted several weeks ago (which look all original) have the same wine colored
stain mixed in with the clearcoat (over a previously stained/filled clubhead) that the M85s do.

I wonder if the 693Ts posted previously are later in the 1949-1952 run of the model? Maybe the same
finish was used in 1952 only when the M85 model came out.

So I wonder if the 1949-1951 model 693s had the Armour mahogany stain on them, and the 1952 model the new
M85 model stain/finish? I don't see any mention of having a choice in the MacGregor catalogs.

Maybe the answer to this is lost in the "mist of time" (And then again, maybe nobody cares but me).

[freddiec]

Bella,
Good question. I think all the 693s had the same stain color. The 693T's that Hawk posted a couple of weeks ago were so mint I think the original stain looks like it did 60 years ago. The ones above to me look like a different tone because the stain has worn off and aged. I've seen other sets that look like Hawks but those were also very mint. I also think the M85 Mahogany stain was more of an eggplant color and different than both 693 sets posted.

[drewspin]

I have only three words: You lucky bastxxx!

[Bella Woods]

What is confusing about the clubs, is the fact that the finish on the M85s is actually an eggplant (I call it wine) colored[u]
[/u]final clear coat,[u] [b]the color is in the lacquer/varnish[/b][/u]. The "wine" colored final "coating" is applied over an already stained
and wood filled head.

If you strip the eggplant finish ("clearcoat") off the club, the club has a deep brown stain on it, although it is possible
that it is actually colored wood fill to seal the club.

What bothers me is that I have seen clubs that I know have never been used (their "provenance" is known),
that have no wear at all, and they have the Armour mahogony stain on them (not eggplant) like the clubs here.

It is interesting to note that, in the 1949 and 1950 MacGregor catalogs they refer to a "hand polished Mahogany finish"
but in the 1952 catalog they refer to the finish as a "mahogany glaze".

PowerBilt used to do the same thing, some of their late 50s to early 60s clubs had a "glaze" finish on them too (some
cherry, some wine & some ebony/black). The color of the club was also in the clearcoat, just like the M85s.

Maybe some "old timer" knows the answer.


P.S. I agree with drewspin

[RobotDoctor]

I agree with the board here that this set is outstanding and definitely the real deal. I also agree with Fred that this may be one of the top 3 sets that any discriminating persimmon wood collector could want. The 1954-1955 945 and 1953-1955 M85 would probably round out that trifecta. I would definitely refinish the driver and pull it out when playing with your father and friends. They will immediately start drooling. I guarantee it! Great find!!!

[johnalex444]

I really appreciate all of the responses. I've been wanting to post the clubs for a few weeks now, knowing that this is the place for a real time discussion of vintage clubs. Like I said, I've been a long time reader and was really glad when this forum started up. I have been feeding my obsession (finding and buying clubs) for awhile now and its been good to read through the topics and subsequent disccussions. Now that I have broken the ice, I fear that I will be spending more time here. (hope the wife doesn't mind)

My past e-bay purchases and thrift store finds have been pretty calm compared to these and I almost feel bad relating my story to you. I guess somebody has to find things that other people have no interest in. That day, it happened to be me. I just wonder how many other eyes looked at these beauties and passed on because they were looking for an 'aircraft carrier sized metal monstrosity' that was going to keep them in the fairway.
I was in shock when I noticed the 2 wood sticking out of the rack and just about fell over as I searched the remaining sections and found the 3 wood and then the driver. Clubs in hand, very close to my body, I quietly walked out and purchased my find while thinking someone was surely going say there was a mistake.
Minus $6 in my wallet ($2 per stick) I was finally able to examine them in the sunlight while walking to the car (feeling like a kid at Christmas). I'm still wondering how I got so lucky, but I'm glad to share with people who can appreciate my good fortune.

I am really leaning towards a refinish, but want to think on it for a few days. It would be hard not to stick em in the bag for a round after a refinish.

[persimmonpal]

[quote name='johnalex444' date='27 February 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1267312864' post='2281799']
I really appreciate all of the responses. I've been wanting to post the clubs for a few weeks now, knowing that this is the place for a real time discussion of vintage clubs. Like I said, I've been a long time reader and was really glad when this forum started up. I have been feeding my obsession (finding and buying clubs) for awhile now and its been good to read through the topics and subsequent disccussions. Now that I have broken the ice, I fear that I will be spending more time here. (hope the wife doesn't mind)

My past e-bay purchases and thrift store finds have been pretty calm compared to these and I almost feel bad relating my story to you. I guess somebody has to find things that other people have no interest in. That day, it happened to be me. I just wonder how many other eyes looked at these beauties and passed on because they were looking for an 'aircraft carrier sized metal monstrosity' that was going to keep them in the fairway.
I was in shock when I noticed the 2 wood sticking out of the rack and just about fell over as I searched the remaining sections and found the 3 wood and then the driver. Clubs in hand, very close to my body, I quietly walked out and purchased my find while thinking someone was surely going say there was a mistake.
Minus $6 in my wallet ($2 per stick) I was finally able to examine them in the sunlight while walking to the car (feeling like a kid at Christmas). I'm still wondering how I got so lucky, but I'm glad to share with people who can appreciate my good fortune.

I am really leaning towards a refinish, but want to think on it for a few days. It would be hard not to stick em in the bag for a round after a refinish.
[/quote]

You shouldnt feel bad about your good fortune, It was just your day, so Enjoy them!

[johnalex444]

Update - I have made the decision to refinish. Hopefully will post pictures when done, maybe during process.
Thanks all for the help and support.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='johnalex444' date='03 March 2010 - 08:25 AM' timestamp='1267629913' post='2290247']
Update - I have made the decision to refinish. Hopefully will post pictures when done, maybe during process.
Thanks all for the help and support.

P.S. - any info on my latest find (uploaded photos in my gallery), would be appreciated. Can't seem to find much much info. Really liked the club when I saw it.
[/quote]

I would say definitely from the 30s. Not sure other than that. That is another nice find, a great wall hanger.

[johnalex444]

[quote name='johnalex444' date='03 March 2010 - 08:25 AM' timestamp='1267629913' post='2290247']
Update - I have made the decision to refinish. Hopefully will post pictures when done, maybe during process.
Thanks all for the help and support.
[/quote]

Clubs are now in the capable hands of our own 'Persimmonpal'.
I can't thank him enough for providing his time, knowledge, and experience. Thanks again John.
I also want to thank everyone else for their interest and their shared knowledge. I really appreciate it.

I have included a link for those interested in following the progess.
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/352859-tommy-armour-693-refinish-lots-of-step-by-step-pics/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/352859-tommy-armour-693-refinish-lots-of-step-by-step-pics/[/url]

[golfish51]

hello,
i am new to golfwrx and need help. i have several sets of all original early 50's 693T and 945W woods. what stain can i purchase to match this original "mahogany" color. it is so deep or thick, i don't know what is the proper term, it almost looks like paint.
thanks mike

[Bella Woods]

golfish51:

Since you found this old post, you know we have bounced this subject around a bit. I think the simple answer
is that you are not going to find the same color stain and just purchase it.

You are going to have to mix and match (create) it yourself.

[golfish51]

yeah, not the answer i wanted but feared was correct! any ideas about brands and colors?
thanks mike

[freddiec]

Mike,
MacGregor used a Mahogany glaze on those models. I think those would look great refinished with a nice Mahogany stain that will show off the grain. Persimmonpal has a great stain mix for those models that look super.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='freddiec' date='05 June 2010 - 07:43 AM' timestamp='1275745404' post='2487782']
Mike,
MacGregor used a Mahogany glaze on those models. I think those would look great refinished with a nice Mahogany stain that will show off the grain. Persimmonpal has a great stain mix for those models that look super.
[/quote]

Yes, the stain mix is outstanding! I am going to have my 945W driver and 945TW 3 wood refinished in that stain later this year.

[golfish51]

thanks guys,
persimmonpal is sending me some stain. now i look at the whipping and see that is much smaller in diameter than what i have!! i go on line and can't locate any whipping thread. what is the purpose of Golfworks if they don't have what you need. now i read that there is .016, .019, .020 and .022 diameters in nylon whipping thread!!! anybody know where i could find these?

[Maxwell]

[size="4"][color="#8b0000"]"My wife thinks I have a problem"
Geezz... can I ever identify with that statement! Donna just looks at me, wraps her arms around my neck, gives me a hug and smiles. I fortunate though that she likes golf and I also collect and refinish older womens clubs(hint). I have four sets of very good womens clubs. But they have to be real good quality womens clubs. I try to be inclusive rather than exclusive.
Max [/color][/size]

[hawk59]

[quote name='persimmonpal' timestamp='1267297136' post='2281299']
What a great find!! Why cant I walk into a thrift store and find a set of 693s???

[/quote]

I agree.

I got mine from the guy who was lucky like you. Nice find. Enjoy them.