Lift--Clean---Place

[HappyGas]

Lift Clean & Place in Tourney MAJORS ???

Help Me Out....

Can anyone remember if they have ever seen "Lift--Clean--Place" put into play during a Masters or US Open ???


I've gotten into discussions about this in regards to the LOCAL RULE put into play yesterday in Scottsdale. For some reason I remember this coming up a few years back @ Augusta. In the end, The Chairman flatly said...

".....we will play it down or we will not play....."

Do I have this right ???

[Tmiller72]

US Open, never. Not sure about the Masters, but i doubt they do it there.

[HappyGas]

Thanks.

I just hate: "Lift--Clean--Place".

Most will argue: "Well. If everyone is doing it...what is the problem. They all play by same rule."

I'll contend: "If everyone plays it DOWN, everyone will be playing by the same rule. Period."

There is a rule in place for Casual Water, in my 35 years of playing golf....it is enough to get through any day. No matter how wet.

[RickK]

I'm pretty sure neither one has ever used the lift, clean and place local rule. Both have employed the embedded ball ruling which does actually allow you to touch your ball and clean it...just not place it.

[HappyGas]

I didn't know for sure if The Masters & US Open had implemented the LCP Rule. I wanted to open a discussion covering that specific topic.



Can't argue with you.

We've covered it pretty well.

Thanks for contributing.

[alittleoverpar]

I think most golfers are against the "lift-clean-place" scenario. The solution on the surface seems very simple. Just don't play if the course is so wet that balls pick up mud when they land. This however, is not always practical with TV crews, etc. on-site, each day a tournament is extended costs a lot of money. Looking at it from an economic standpoint I can see why tournament directors impose the local rule at times.

I don't think you you ever see it imposed at a US Open or at the Masters. I think the tournament would just be extended until play can be resumed under normal conditions.

Just my two cents.

[HappyGas]

I think you are exactly right.

Last year at US Open.....They had terrible weather. It was understood that the ball would be played "as it lies" & the tournament would go the full 72 holes....

Even if it took until next Wednesday.

It is the ONE thing I don't like about the PGA Tour....it is "Made for TV".

[paulyb]

USGA will not use Lift, clean and place. Play the ball as it lies, even if it happens to be muddy. I do believe that they would use a local rule for Embedded ball through the green. That way you would get relief for an embedded ball even in areas where the grass is not "closely mown".

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='HappyGas' date='01 March 2010 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1267471993' post='2285802']
I think you are exactly right.

Last year at US Open.....They had terrible weather. It was understood that the ball would be played "as it lies" & the tournament would go the full 72 holes....

Even if it took until next Wednesday.

It is the ONE thing I don't like about the PGA Tour....it is "Made for TV".
[/quote]
Unfortunately, without television there'd be no PGA Tour to speak of. All professional sports depend on viewers - that is where they get their income. You want "pure" sports you'll have to look to some amateur competition somewhere where the only priority is the game. I don't know if it exists because in the real world people and organizations have multiple priorities.

[offapex]

HappyGas,

Here are some links you need to read:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1956.html#23
http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1960.html#23

http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1956.html#3501
http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1960.html#3501

the rules for lifting and cleaning the ball has changed. yes, the majors have had lift and clean since 1960.

[RickK]

[quote name='shift' date='01 March 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1267503900' post='2287094']
HappyGas,

Here are some links you need to read:

[url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1956.html#23"]http://www.ruleshist...les1956.html#23[/url]
[url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1960.html#23"]http://www.ruleshist...les1960.html#23[/url]

[url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1956.html#3501"]http://www.ruleshist...s1956.html#3501[/url]
[url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1960.html#3501"]http://www.ruleshist...s1960.html#3501[/url]

the rules for lifting and cleaning the ball has changed. yes, the majors have had lift and clean since 1960.
[/quote]


The thread topic mentions only "Majors" but the OP says Masters or US Open. They do not allow "lift, clean and place" in the 2 majors mentioned by OP...Masters and US Open. The rules of golf allow it as a local rule but neither Masters or US Open elects to have that local rule.

[RickK]

Happygas
On a totally different note, do you recognize the club in Greg Norman's hands in the picture you have in your post?

[offapex]

[quote name='RickKimbrell' date='02 March 2010 - 10:25 AM' timestamp='1267554324' post='2288102']
[quote name='shift' date='01 March 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1267503900' post='2287094']
HappyGas,

Here are some links you need to read:

[url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1956.html#23"]http://www.ruleshist...les1956.html#23[/url]
[url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1960.html#23"]http://www.ruleshist...les1960.html#23[/url]

[url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1956.html#3501"]http://www.ruleshist...s1956.html#3501[/url]
[url="http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1960.html#3501"]http://www.ruleshist...s1960.html#3501[/url]

the rules for lifting and cleaning the ball has changed. yes, the majors have had lift and clean since 1960.
[/quote]


The thread topic mentions only "Majors" but the OP says Masters or US Open. They do not allow "lift, clean and place" in the 2 majors mentioned by OP...Masters and US Open. The rules of golf allow it as a local rule but neither Masters or US Open elects to have that local rule.
[/quote]

every time you step on the green, mark your ball, pick up your ball, clean it, replace it, you're doing a lift, clean and place. that rule went into affect in 1960. prior to that you were allowed to.

[HappyGas]

Absolutely.

 

Glad you noticed.

 

[RickK]

Do you honestly think that was the question? Really?

[RickK]

I have one of those. Talk about one sweet feel in a wooden club.

[Money03]

I don't quite understand the argument against lift, clean, and place. If someone can give me a rundown of that opinion? I understand the whole "the game wasn't meant to be played that way bla bla bla", but I mean as a matter of hitting shots what's so bad about a shot that's hit pure and ends up in a bad spot is then corrected to what it technically should be? I'm a proponent of moving balls out of divots as well, but that likely won't happen any time ever.

[HappyGas]

what's so bad about a shot that's hit pure and ends up in a bad spot is then corrected to what it technically should be? I'm a proponent of moving balls out of divots as well, but that likely won't happen any time ever.
[/quote]



With all due respect....

What you described above is not the game of golf as I know it. There are no guarantees out there.

Go play golf in Scotland some time. You'll hit perfect shots that end up in horrible spots, and horrible shots that end up perfect.

I stood on the 9th Hole at The Old Course. A 310 yard Par-4. Flat out ROLL a drive that runs all the way up to the green. I mean...a complete worm burner that found it's way green side. The ball rolled 275 Yards...down wind.

Are you telling me that I should have replaced my ball back in front of the forward tees because it needed to be: ".....corrected to what it technically should be...? "

We are talking about different games.

Play it as it lies....quite simple when you think about it.

[Man In The Miura]

I think we all get your point. It's getting a bit sanctimonious, though.

I play year round golf in the Seattle area, where on any given March day, or entire week or month for that matter, the entire course fits the description of casual water. Without LCP I bet I'd miss 25+ rounds per year.

I believe in keeping the Majors pure, but I don't hold my local course to the same rigorous standard.

[H.A. Kerr]

[quote name='teamyonex' date='02 March 2010 - 08:25 PM' timestamp='1267590317' post='2289593']
the entire course fits the description of casual water.
[/quote]

I hear you. I played a round in Portland last weekend. This is what I found when I got to my drive which was 3-4 yards off the fairway.

[attachment=551298:soggy.jpg]

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='teamyonex' date='02 March 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1267590317' post='2289593']
I think we all get your point. It's getting a bit sanctimonious, though.

I play year round golf in the Seattle area, where on any given March day, or entire week or month for that matter, the entire course fits the description of casual water. Without LCP I bet I'd miss 25+ rounds per year.

I believe in keeping the Majors pure, but I don't hold my local course to the same rigorous standard.
[/quote]


An effort to clarify:


Relief from casual water, as I believe you are describing above, is always available to a player (rule 25-1). The embedded ball rule (25-2) is always in play in closely mown areas, but can be expanded through the green by local rule. LCP (Appendix 1, point #A-4), is different than both of these, only available by local rule, and doesn't necessarily require you to be in a wet area, or to have your ball embedded, to take advantage of it. Under a LCP local rule, the fact that you can clean your ball at any time in the proscribed areas the rule defines, and then replace it, can provide much greater advantage than either of these other options, and is therefore frowned upon by the USGA when it runs its championships. Other PGA Tour tournaments are more generous.

[offapex]

[quote name='HappyGas' date='02 March 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1267585243' post='2289394']
What you described above is not the game of golf as I know it. There are no guarantees out there.

Go play golf in Scotland some time. You'll hit perfect shots that end up in horrible spots, and horrible shots that end up perfect.

[/quote]

I am continually perplexed by you Gas. You talking about playing golf as it was meant to be played, golf as it is played in Scotland, how there are no guarantees in golf. Yet every time you lift, clean and place your ball on the putting green you are breaking hundreds of years of tradition and rules. In real golf you don't clean your ball and align your ball on the putting green, you play it as it lies. If there happens to be mud on your ball, you putt with that mud on the ball. There are no guarantees out there, including a clean ball on the putting green. You obviously don't play real golf. And yet you are hung up on this local rule amendment to the rules of golf. Be consistent.

[HappyGas]

[quote name='shift' date='03 March 2010 - 03:33 AM' timestamp='1267605236' post='2289957']
[quote name='HappyGas' date='02 March 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1267585243' post='2289394']
What you described above is not the game of golf as I know it. There are no guarantees out there.

Go play golf in Scotland some time. You'll hit perfect shots that end up in horrible spots, and horrible shots that end up perfect.

[/quote]

I am continually perplexed by you Gas. You talking about playing golf as it was meant to be played, golf as it is played in Scotland, how there are no guarantees in golf. Yet every time you lift, clean and place your ball on the putting green you are breaking hundreds of years of tradition and rules. In real golf you don't clean your ball and align your ball on the putting green, you play it as it lies. If there happens to be mud on your ball, you putt with that mud on the ball. There are no guarantees out there, including a clean ball on the putting green. You obviously don't play real golf. And yet you are hung up on this local rule amendment to the rules of golf. Be consistent.
[/quote]



Just dawned on me....

You are picking on me because I mark my ball on the green.

If that is all this about, I apologize. I honestly couldn't tell you ((within 50 years)) when they implemented the rule that you are NOW allowed to mark your ball on the green. I honestly thought you could always mark your ball.

Let's end this discussion. You follow my point & I get yours.

Let's agree to disagree.

Smile....life is good.

[Speedly]

Plug a ball into the fairway, right after it's rained, so there's an eighth of an inch sticking out the top. I bet you'd play lift-clean-place then.

If everyone has to hit opposite-handed, it's stupid. But everyone's playing under the same conditions, so it's a (theoretically) level playing field.

Question: why does it personally bother you that they do lift-clean-place? It only makes them look bad, not you. Unless you've got your exemption for that tourney, [i]it has no effect on your life at all[/i].

[HappyGas]

You all keep making my point for me....

If a ball is PLUGGED....we have rules in place to accomodate that situation. It is called...."Imbedded Ball Rule."

I just don't like touching my ball unless it is on the putting surface.

Finally.....you don't see "Lift-Clean-Place" at US Open, Masters or British Open for a reason. Enough said. LCP is put in to accomodate TV Coverage...so that they can actually play an event in poor conditions.

Would I play on "said day"...sure. I'd just leave my ball as it lies & play it. If it is plugged....I've got a rule to use that allows me to take a DROP.

Huge difference there. Lift--Clean--Place allows you to place your golf ball. That is simply wrong. The ball must be dropped into position.

Don't you think there is a reason you have to drop your ball when taking penalty strokes OR taking free relief out of casual water ????

If you are in casual water...do you think you should be able to PLACE your ball ????

I didn't think so.


"Play It As It Lies".......HappyGas

[Newby]

[quote name='HappyGas' date='01 March 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1267454775' post='2285177']
Thanks.

I just hate: "Lift--Clean--Place".

There is a rule in place for Casual Water, in my 35 years of playing golf....it is enough to get through any day. No matter how wet.
[/quote]

Wetness is not the main criteria. In this part of the world fairways can get pretty muddy during the winter, particularly with wormcasts. After a 30 yard roll your ball will look like a 2" brown snowball. Absolutely unplayable.

As the book says [color="#0000ff"][i]Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url] or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Committee"][i]Committee[/i][/url] may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url] or to promote fair and pleasant play. [/i][/color]

[color="#000000"]Incidentally don't confuse 'Lift, Clean and Replace' with 'Preferred Lies'. They are different animals. [/color]

[Newby]

[quote name='HappyGas' date='09 March 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1268145174' post='2304027']

Finally.....you don't see "Lift-Clean-Place" at US Open, Masters or British Open for a reason.

[/quote]

1) You don't see 'Lift, Clean and Place' anywhere. There is no such Local Rule. (see above)

2) You don't see L,C & R or PL at the Open Championship because it is always played on links courses. They don't get mud on sandy ground in the middle of summer.
The R&A approve the use of either LR in appropriate circumstances.

[Speedly]

[quote]"Play It As It Lies".......HappyGas[/quote]

But using the imbedded ball rule goes against your slogan.

Your argument is invalid.

We have a word for people like you on other forums, who come and start topics just to rile people up. We call your kind "trolls." This term comes for two reasons - because you're trolling for drama much like a fisherman trolls for fish, and because people that "troll" have the social skills of, well, a troll.

Go start drama elsewhere. I hear a certain other well-known golf forum has drama flying everywhere. You might try there instead.

[HappyGas]

[quote name='Speedly' date='11 March 2010 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1268367276' post='2310746']
[quote]"Play It As It Lies".......HappyGas[/quote]

But using the imbedded ball rule goes against your slogan.

Your argument is invalid.

We have a word for people like you on other forums, who come and start topics just to rile people up. We call your kind "trolls." This term comes for two reasons - because you're trolling for drama much like a fisherman trolls for fish, and because people that "troll" have the social skills of, well, a troll.

Go start drama elsewhere. I hear a certain other well-known golf forum has drama flying everywhere. You might try there instead.
[/quote]




I'm sorry.


Have a great day.