DEMO clubs(illegal or legal)

[gordon868]

Is it legal to use a DEMO six iron in a collegiate golf tournament?

[OpusX20]

[quote name='gordon868' date='06 March 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1267927824' post='2297905']
Is it legal to use a DEMO six iron in a collegiate golf tournament?
[/quote]

Yes.

I'm curious as to why you think there might be an issue with playing a club designated as a DEMO.

[leftypga]

Is it a 6 iron with an interchangeable shaft? It may be nonconforming just because that version of the club may not have been submitted to the USGA.

[gordon868]

No. it is a standard S300 shaft. And i thought it might be illegal just as Xout golf balls are illegal. The grip on the 6 iron also says DEMO not sure if that matters. Im in this situation because i bent my six iron some months ago and have a tournament soon and needed a quick replacement.

[Newby]

Why do you say XOUT balls are illegal ?

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 01:44 AM' timestamp='1267947843' post='2298722']
Why do you say XOUT balls are illegal ?
[/quote]

Depending on the tournament committee and their rules, the X-outs can be deemed illegal for play in the tourney. I know one of the rules in the egolf players handbook specifically states that x-out and practice balls are illegal.

[Newby]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='07 March 2010 - 07:48 AM' timestamp='1267948088' post='2298726']
[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 01:44 AM' timestamp='1267947843' post='2298722']
Why do you say XOUT balls are illegal ?
[/quote]

Depending on the tournament committee and their rules, the X-outs can be deemed illegal for play in the tourney. I know one of the rules in the egolf players handbook specifically states that x-out and practice balls are illegal.
[/quote]

Providing the ball conforms to [b]APPENDIX III[/b] - THE BALL, any ball may be used under the Rules of Golf.
A committee may not make a COC overiding a Rule.

If the 'One Ball' Condition is in force, only those balls on the 'List of Conforming Balls' may be used. It is unlikely that the manufacturer will have submitted such balls for inclusion.[b][i] But in all other events the ball, if in fact conforming but not on the list, may be used.[/i][/b]
The RBS recommend that ‘The One Ball COC’) is adopted only in events that are limited to professional golfers or highly-skilled (scratch or better) amateur golfers.

http://www.titleist.com/customerservice/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=62475

[gordon868]

Like i said in the post. Im a college golfer and the NCAA Rules dont permix Xout balls... Not sure about DEMO clubs though?

[Borthwick]

Shouldn't you be asking your coach?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='gordon868' date='07 March 2010 - 07:25 AM' timestamp='1267964741' post='2298870']
Like i said in the post. Im a college golfer and the NCAA Rules dont permix Xout balls... Not sure about DEMO clubs though?
[/quote]

If Newby is right in his post just above yours (and in my experience he is a "plus handicap" when it comes to the rules) then the NCAA is violating the Rules of Golf by excluding these balls. If you're right that they are excluding these balls, then it's possible that they are violating other rules as well, perhaps about demo irons. Therefore the NCAA is the only one who can answer your question -- so the advice to ask your coach seems appropriate.

I'll just add that I don't think that the word "DEMO" will either make the club legal or illegal. It's just a word. It's the construction of the club that will make it legal or not, so since it's an odd club to begin with you might want to make sure that it has the same specs as the non-demo version of the club -- or at least acceptable specs.

Or, you could simply change the grip to one that doesn't have the word DEMO printed on it LOL! (Isn't it likely that it's just a standard club with a grip with that word on it for some non-golf, commercial reason?)

[OpusX20]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='07 March 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1267976098' post='2299144']
[quote name='gordon868' date='07 March 2010 - 07:25 AM' timestamp='1267964741' post='2298870']
Like i said in the post. Im a college golfer and the NCAA Rules dont permix Xout balls... Not sure about DEMO clubs though?
[/quote]

If Newby is right in his post just above yours (and in my experience he is a "plus handicap" when it comes to the rules) then the NCAA is violating the Rules of Golf by excluding these balls. If you're right that they are excluding these balls, then it's possible that they are violating other rules as well, perhaps about demo irons. Therefore the NCAA is the only one who can answer your question -- so the advice to ask your coach seems appropriate.

I'll just add that I don't think that the word "DEMO" will either make the club legal or illegal. It's just a word. It's the construction of the club that will make it legal or not, so since it's an odd club to begin with you might want to make sure that it has the same specs as the non-demo version of the club -- or at least acceptable specs.

Or, you could simply change the grip to one that doesn't have the word DEMO printed on it LOL! (Isn't it likely that it's just a standard club with a grip with that word on it for some non-golf, commercial reason?)
[/quote]

IMO, the NCAA is not violating the Rules. They have required that competitors play a ball from the List of Conforming Golf Balls. This is permitted under Rule 5-1. X-outs would not be on the List, so they would not be permitted. That doesn't mean that the X-out would definitley be non-conforming accourding to Appendix III. Just that it was not submitted for inclusion.

In the Titleist FAQ that Newby linked to, they did a cut and paste from the USGA Website...

[i]Q: May I use a ball stamped with "Practice" or "X-Out" to play a round of golf?

A: Our present policy provides that if the List of Conforming Golf Balls or the One Ball Condition is in effect, a practice or logo ball may be used provided the other markings on the ball (i.e., pole and seam) correspond exactly to a ball listing on the current List of Conforming Golf Balls. Balls labeled with ''PRACTICE'' or a circled ''P'', are essentially treated as a logo ball (such as a Mickey Mouse emblem). A player's name stamped on the ball is also acceptable. However, the original ball markings (i.e., pole and seam markings) must be readable in order for a Rules Official to determine whether that ball is on the List of Conforming Golf Balls. X-Out balls are not permitted to be used in any competition in which the List of Conforming Golf Balls or the One Ball Condition is in effect. However, if neither of these Conditions are in effect, X-Out balls may be used because all balls are presumed to conform unless they have been tested and found not to conform or are obviously non-conforming (e.g., too small or too heavy). (See Decisions 5-1/4 and US/5-1/101).

As a result of the potential for an X-Out to be non-conforming if tested, we do not recommend using this model during tournament play.[/i]

[jaskanski]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='07 March 2010 - 08:32 PM' timestamp='1267993948' post='2299703']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='07 March 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1267976098' post='2299144']
[quote name='gordon868' date='07 March 2010 - 07:25 AM' timestamp='1267964741' post='2298870']
Like i said in the post. Im a college golfer and the NCAA Rules dont permix Xout balls... Not sure about DEMO clubs though?
[/quote]

If Newby is right in his post just above yours (and in my experience he is a "plus handicap" when it comes to the rules) then the NCAA is violating the Rules of Golf by excluding these balls. If you're right that they are excluding these balls, then it's possible that they are violating other rules as well, perhaps about demo irons. Therefore the NCAA is the only one who can answer your question -- so the advice to ask your coach seems appropriate.

I'll just add that I don't think that the word "DEMO" will either make the club legal or illegal. It's just a word. It's the construction of the club that will make it legal or not, so since it's an odd club to begin with you might want to make sure that it has the same specs as the non-demo version of the club -- or at least acceptable specs.

Or, you could simply change the grip to one that doesn't have the word DEMO printed on it LOL! (Isn't it likely that it's just a standard club with a grip with that word on it for some non-golf, commercial reason?)
[/quote]

IMO, the NCAA is not violating the Rules. They have required that competitors play a ball from the List of Conforming Golf Balls. This is permitted under Rule 5-1. X-outs would not be on the List, so they would not be permitted. That doesn't mean that the X-out would definitley be non-conforming accourding to Appendix III. Just that it was not submitted for inclusion.

In the Titleist FAQ that Newby linked to, they did a cut and paste from the USGA Website...

[i]Q: May I use a ball stamped with "Practice" or "X-Out" to play a round of golf?

A: Our present policy provides that if the List of Conforming Golf Balls or the One Ball Condition is in effect, a practice or logo ball may be used provided the other markings on the ball (i.e., pole and seam) correspond exactly to a ball listing on the current List of Conforming Golf Balls. Balls labeled with ''PRACTICE'' or a circled ''P'', are essentially treated as a logo ball (such as a Mickey Mouse emblem). A player's name stamped on the ball is also acceptable. However, the original ball markings (i.e., pole and seam markings) must be readable in order for a Rules Official to determine whether that ball is on the List of Conforming Golf Balls. X-Out balls are not permitted to be used in any competition in which the List of Conforming Golf Balls or the One Ball Condition is in effect. However, if neither of these Conditions are in effect, X-Out balls may be used because all balls are presumed to conform unless they have been tested and found not to conform or are obviously non-conforming (e.g., too small or too heavy). (See Decisions 5-1/4 and US/5-1/101).

As a result of the potential for an X-Out to be non-conforming if tested, we do not recommend using this model during tournament play.[/i]
[/quote]

A case well put.
A similar thing happened to Greg Norman a few years ago when a ball (Maxfli XS I think) was not on the conforming list and therefore got him DQ'd. Nothing to do with the make up of the ball, simply it's markings.
As for demo clubs, there is nothing wrong with them as long as they're the same as the club that's been submitted to the USGA/R&A for approval. The words 'demo' are usually placed on the grip to prevent any confusion about the markings of the club for conformity purposes.

[Newby]

Sawgrass

I don't think you read my link. But to make it clear see
[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-05/#5-1/4"]Dec 5-1/4[/url]

[highergr0und]

A demo club is pretty much equal to stamping practice on a golf ball. The OEM will mark the clubs that they're giving to the store at a steep discount or for free and they're not supposed to be resold. As long as the club model is conforming, you should be good to go.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1267997196' post='2299817']
Sawgrass

I don't think you read my link. But to make it clear see
[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-05/#5-1/4"]Dec 5-1/4[/url]
[/quote]


I believe I now see, with the help of the above rule link.

I got confused when I read from your earlier post, "Providing the ball conforms to [b]APPENDIX III[/b] - THE BALL, any ball may be used under the Rules of Golf.
A committee may not make a COC overiding a Rule."

I had presumed that the NCAA was acting as a committee overriding a Rule. I seem to get confounded as to when a COC is permitted to override a ROG and when it's not.

Sorry to all for any confusion I caused. Or may continue to be causing!

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='08 March 2010 - 01:35 AM' timestamp='1268012118' post='2300381']
[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1267997196' post='2299817']
Sawgrass

I don't think you read my link. But to make it clear see
[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-05/#5-1/4"]Dec 5-1/4[/url]
[/quote]


I believe I now see, with the help of the above rule link.

I got confused when I read from your earlier post, "Providing the ball conforms to [b]APPENDIX III[/b] - THE BALL, any ball may be used under the Rules of Golf.
A committee may not make a COC overiding a Rule."

I had presumed that the NCAA was acting as a committee overriding a Rule. I seem to get confounded as to when a COC is permitted to override a ROG and when it's not.

Sorry to all for any confusion I caused. Or may continue to be causing!
[/quote]

Sorry Sawgrass, I probably added to the confusion. There has been no mention of the NCAA using the 'One Ball Rule'. IMO a prohibition on X-out can only be done if that is in force.

[grabthepin]

[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 05:50 AM' timestamp='1267959034' post='2298820']
A committee may not make a COC overiding a Rule.
[/quote]

In theory, true. In practice, not true as the Committee's word is final, even if they are not allowed to do it. One must also play by 'illegal' Local Rules that overrule Rules of Golf.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='jontyc' date='08 March 2010 - 07:35 AM' timestamp='1268051754' post='2301305']
[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 05:50 AM' timestamp='1267959034' post='2298820']
A committee may not make a COC overiding a Rule.
[/quote]

In theory, true. In practice, not true as the Committee's word is final, even if they are not allowed to do it. One must also play by 'illegal' Local Rules that overrule Rules of Golf.
[/quote]


I guess the only guy you really have to listen to is the guy who's going to hand you the prize!

[OpusX20]

[quote name='Newby' date='08 March 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1268031837' post='2301133']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='08 March 2010 - 01:35 AM' timestamp='1268012118' post='2300381']
[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1267997196' post='2299817']
Sawgrass

I don't think you read my link. But to make it clear see
[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-05/#5-1/4"]Dec 5-1/4[/url]
[/quote]


I believe I now see, with the help of the above rule link.

I got confused when I read from your earlier post, "Providing the ball conforms to [b]APPENDIX III[/b] - THE BALL, any ball may be used under the Rules of Golf.
A committee may not make a COC overiding a Rule."

I had presumed that the NCAA was acting as a committee overriding a Rule. I seem to get confounded as to when a COC is permitted to override a ROG and when it's not.

Sorry to all for any confusion I caused. Or may continue to be causing!
[/quote]

Sorry Sawgrass, I probably added to the confusion. There has been no mention of the NCAA using the 'One Ball Rule'. IMO a prohibition on X-out can only be done if that is in force.
[/quote]

While the One Ball Condition is one way that X-outs can be prohibited, it is not the only way. The List of Conforming Balls Condition also would make X-outs illegal. The One Ball Condition of course, implies/requires the List of Conforming Golf Balls Condition, but not vice versa. I believe that the List of Conforming Balls Condition is the primary tool used by the NCAA to prohibit X-outs. Below is a typical quote from many NCAA "Local Rules and Conditions of Competition" sheets:

[b][size="1"][i][size="2"]"LIST OF CONFORMING GOLF BALLS—[/size][/i][/b][/size][size="2"][i]Optional Condition as prescribed in Appendix I is in effect. THE ONE-BALL RULE IS [b]NOT [/b][size="1"][font="Calibri,Calibri"][size="1"][size="2"]in effect."

[/size]

[/size][/size][/font][/i][/size]

[Boomermike]

Like i said in the post. Im a college golfer and the NCAA Rules dont permix Xout balls... Not sure about DEMO clubs though?

 

If Newby is right in his post just above yours (and in my experience he is a "plus handicap" when it comes to the rules) then the NCAA is violating the Rules of Golf by excluding these balls. If you're right that they are excluding these balls, then it's possible that they are violating other rules as well, perhaps about demo irons. Therefore the NCAA is the only one who can answer your question -- so the advice to ask your coach seems appropriate.

 

I'll just add that I don't think that the word "DEMO" will either make the club legal or illegal. It's just a word. It's the construction of the club that will make it legal or not, so since it's an odd club to begin with you might want to make sure that it has the same specs as the non-demo version of the club -- or at least acceptable specs.

 

Or, you could simply change the grip to one that doesn't have the word DEMO printed on it LOL! (Isn't it likely that it's just a standard club with a grip with that word on it for some non-golf, commercial reason?)

 

Are you suggesting that the NCAA is subject to ANYBODY'S rules governing ANYTHING?

 

The National Communists Against Athletes do whatever they want, whenever they want, and to whomever they want, and they don't consider themselves to be accountable to anybody for anything. I mean...allowing the BCS system to determine the national champion in Division I football is a violation of this country's antitrust laws, and that doesn't stop them, does it? What makes you think they'd concern themselves with something so mundane (in their minds) as the USGA's rules of golf?

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 05:50 AM' timestamp='1267959034' post='2298820']
[quote name='bigred90gt' date='07 March 2010 - 07:48 AM' timestamp='1267948088' post='2298726']
[quote name='Newby' date='07 March 2010 - 01:44 AM' timestamp='1267947843' post='2298722']
Why do you say XOUT balls are illegal ?
[/quote]

Depending on the tournament committee and their rules, the X-outs can be deemed illegal for play in the tourney. I know one of the rules in the egolf players handbook specifically states that x-out and practice balls are illegal.
[/quote]

Providing the ball conforms to [b]APPENDIX III[/b] - THE BALL, any ball may be used under the Rules of Golf.
A committee may not make a COC overiding a Rule.

If the 'One Ball' Condition is in force, only those balls on the 'List of Conforming Balls' may be used. It is unlikely that the manufacturer will have submitted such balls for inclusion.[b][i] But in all other events the ball, if in fact conforming but not on the list, may be used.[/i][/b]
The RBS recommend that ‘The One Ball COC’) is adopted only in events that are limited to professional golfers or highly-skilled (scratch or better) amateur golfers.

[url="http://www.titleist.com/customerservice/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=62475"]http://www.titleist....asp?faqid=62475[/url]
[/quote]
Simply put, the director of the Houston division of the egolf tour is the one who verifies the score-cards, announces the winners, and hands out the gift certificates and trophies. If the rule book he must use for the tournament states that x-outs and practice balls cannot be used, I am not going to argue with him, and if you would like to win the tourney and not get DQ for breach of the rules during play in a tourney on the egolf tour, I would suggest the same. I recon anyone is free to argue with the committee until they are blue in the face if they so choose, but I happen to think it is not worth the trouble, and would recommend against using them unless you know that they are allowed by the tournament committee.