My Edwin Watt's iron-fitting experience

[Jeeves]

...hope you all can help me make up my mind

So a quick background on me is that I play between a 6 and 10 handicap depending on the time of year and amount of play I am getting in. I have had the same Titleist 962s with S300 shafts for almost 11 years. I have been more than happy with the irons in that time, however recently have found them to be very difficult to control distance wise. I have no confidence in them anymore and more and more feel that something is off with them - I am sure the aging shafts alone are cause for concern. Lastly, when I purchased them at 16 years of age, the pro ordered them 1" longer - I guess because he thought I would grow into them. But now 26, I am just 6' tall.

The Edwin Watt's employee was very friendly and knowledgeable. I think he could tell I wasn't quite ready to make the purchase, so I was surprised he was even willing to take the time to let me hit clubs and fit me properly.

I have always struggled with the notion of getting new irons because there are so many solid choices out there... how do you really decide where to spend your money? I will say that I am a feel player - I have to have a good looking club, especially from the top at address. I like the classic look, nothing fancy. So right away I can eliminate a lot of sets. Being a titleist guy and already used to my old 962s, I naturally gravitate towards them. I love the look of the new cb710's. I have also been such a huge fan of Mizuno's. So the pro sets me up with the Titleist cb710's, Mizuno MP58, and the Titleist AP-2.

I start hitting balls and having a hard time noticing much of a difference from the 3 of them... Although as time went on, I became less impressed with the feel of the AP-2. The pro ( i know he's not really a pro, but that's what I will refer to him as, lol) explains that the cb710 and AP-2 are very similar, just the AP-2 is slightly more forgiving. However, as I hit them more and more I really loved the feel of the cb710 over that of the AP-2. Thought the AP-2 had much of a heavier sound and feel.. even when I pured it.

So I put aside the AP-2 and settled on the cb710. Then started hitting the Mizuno MP-58. Again, really couldn't tell much of a difference between the two. Both felt really sweet. Then the pro ran through the fitting process and turns out I am standard everything right off the rack. Standard length, lie, and shaft... S-300 with the option to upgrade to Project X 5.5 or KBS Stiff. My swing speed was borderline X-Stiff, however the computer was telling him my tempo put me back into just the stiff.

So two things I am left with.....

1. Since I told him I was a feel player, he never set me up to hit balls into the computer. I suppose perhaps launch angle and spin results may have allowed me to better evaluate the cb710 against the MP-58? Maybe I should go back and try that?

2. He really wasn't very helpful about choosing the shafts. He claimed there is not much difference between them, but I know after spending a lot of time on these boards that is not really true. Aren't project X's lighter? What would that do to my swing/performance? What about KBS?

For anyone who read this, I thank you. I needed to get it all down on paper. I hope you experienced guys can offer some great advice. Thanks to all in advance.

- J

[ZBigStick]

I never know exactly what a "feel player" means. I think it is different things to different people. We all feel the club on ball. You still have to swing the club and square the face.

It sounds as though you have selected the head that you prefer, as for shafts you have to have a need for change. Do you hit the ball too high, too low, too much spin, not enough spin. Then there is the balance of the club and the feel of the club at impact. All three of those shafts fill different needs. Since you have played S300, that is your frame of reference. See what changes the other shafts make in terms of trajectory and distance.

You can't go wrong with either of those clubs and Dynamic Gold is the baseline for all shafts.

Make the purchase and enjoy the game.

[williamo]

I bought my AP2 710 irons at Edwin Watts in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and I am less than impressed by their knowledge. I knew more than them about everything. I did almost everything in my fitting on my own. He just looked at me and told me it was looking good :s

My guy didn't have much knowledge about shafts, he knew nothing to be honest. I [i]only [/i]tried the Dynamic Gold S300 and LOVED them. I don't have to hit something else. I love my shafts!

I am lie 2* up and std lofts and S300 Shafts.

You should force them to put the CB's together with different shafts so you can try all but I don't think you can go wrong with the S300. They are awesome!!

/Williamo

[Jeeves]

The Edwin Watt's in Ft. Lauderdale is TERRIBLE! I work down the road and never go unless absolutely necessary. The staff is a bunch of old guys who stand behind the counter and don't give a damn about anything but their cigarette breaks. Besides, that store is really small and they don't even carry many clubs - They don't even have the cb710's.

I prefer the store in Plantation. Much larger with full selection, and a good staff of younger guys who play the game and know their stuff.

To answer ZBigStick, I would say that by 'feel' I mean that I would choose a club that is harder to hit simply because I liked the way it looks over another club that may be easier to hit. For me, I just like to be comfortable about the look and feel of the club in my hand. Thankfully, without sounding too arrogant, I think I have a good enough and consistent enough swing to hit a 'players' iron. In an ideal world I would be hitting a pure blade or muscle back - but I am not that naive. That is why I am glad companies like Titleist and Mizuno are out there producing slick, classic looking irons with some forgiveness.

I will definitely have to think about the shafts. I do tend to hit really high long irons, and lower short iron shots with the current S300's that I have been playing - but I sort of like that. And as a matter of fact, I bought a Scratch wedge last year with their KBS shaft - which I tend to have trouble getting any height on at all. I guess all that would be left is to decide if the ProjectX would benefit my game at all. Something to think about....

Thanks all

[ZBigStick]

Your current ball flight is what most would desire. High long irons, penetrating short irons.

PX are generally higher launch, flatter apex than DG. To me they feel more boardy, to others more stable. PX Flighted are slightly smoother in the long irons and keep the lower short iron/higher long iron flight.

[Jeeves]

Interesting.... anyone know where I can read a more comprehensive comparison between the shaft options? Or is it really that much about personal feel?

[suwdawg]

Yeah head and shaft fittings are where the independent fitters really shine. I would imagine there would be a few down in south florida but not famliar with that area. Most of the good ones make the shaft tolerances very small from club to club when building the club, you won't get that off the rack.

However if you like the s300 why change? As the other poster mentioned px flight characteristics and feel are different.

[PanMan_VA]

I suggest you find an independent clubmaker/fitter in your area and have them fit you for swingweight and total weight. As a feel player, swingweight is probably very important to you and most retail stores are not equipped to determine the correct swingweight for you. You need to hit clubs that are lighter and heavier than standard to determine what feels the best and, more importantly, can be hit with the center of the club face most consistently. Don't overlook graphite or lightweight steel shafts with heavier heads as they may really feel better for you.

I was an amateur certified clubmaker/fitter for many years before I stopped due to health issues. I was surprised to find that mid weight steel shafts made to a heavy D4-D5 swingweight were most consistent in hitting the center of the club face and had a much straighter ball flight FOR ME. I tend to inconsistently draw lighter clubs due to an early wrist release and need both more weight and higher swingweight to compensate. My current set is roughly MOI matched (don't feel like paying $500 for an MOI scale) starting at D4 for the 5 iron using a swingweight scale and .5 point increase per club as you progress to the shorter irons. They are the most consistent clubs I have used.

[ForeRL]

Usually sales people at Edwin Watts and Golfsmith aren't very knowledgeable and its proved by his statement saying there aren't much difference in shafts. Shafts are the engine of the club

I suggest going to a qualified PGA professional and do an outdoor fitting so you can see the ballflight. See the ballflight makes a big difference. Or at least going to a good club guru who does indoor fittings with a trackman. Some of them like Joe Kwok know everything and can use the trackman data.

[Jeeves]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Did some searching and can't find much for outdoor fitting - especially because I may be looking to order my clubs through a third party at discount price So really looking to get a free fitting somehow.

May just go back to Edwin and try to get some data from the various shaft options.

[Asleep]

I can tell you now you'll want the 710CBs with DG S300.

But do try the Project X -- and I mean off grass -- in the 6.0 flex and see what you think.

If you find you're hitting the CBs low, go with the Mizzies.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Jeeves' date='11 May 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1273595006' post='2434735']
So a quick background on me is that I play between a 6 and 10 handicap depending on the time of year and amount of play I am getting in. I have had the same Titleist 962s with S300 shafts for almost 11 years. I have been more than happy with the irons in that time, however recently have found them to be very difficult to control distance wise. I have no confidence in them anymore and more and more feel that something is off with them - I am sure the aging shafts alone are cause for concern. Lastly, when I purchased them at 16 years of age, the pro ordered them 1" longer - I guess because he thought I would grow into them. But now 26, I am just 6' tall.

The Edwin Watt's employee was very friendly and knowledgeable. I think he could tell I wasn't quite ready to make the purchase, so I was surprised he was even willing to take the time to let me hit clubs and fit me properly.

I have always struggled with the notion of getting new irons because there are so many solid choices out there... how do you really decide where to spend your money? I will say that I am a feel player - I have to have a good looking club, especially from the top at address. I like the classic look, nothing fancy. So right away I can eliminate a lot of sets. Being a titleist guy and already used to my old 962s, I naturally gravitate towards them. I love the look of the new cb710's. I have also been such a huge fan of Mizuno's. So the pro sets me up with the Titleist cb710's, Mizuno MP58, and the Titleist AP-2.

I start hitting balls and having a hard time noticing much of a difference from the 3 of them... Although as time went on, I became less impressed with the feel of the AP-2. The pro ( i know he's not really a pro, but that's what I will refer to him as, lol) explains that the cb710 and AP-2 are very similar, just the AP-2 is slightly more forgiving. However, as I hit them more and more I really loved the feel of the cb710 over that of the AP-2. Thought the AP-2 had much of a heavier sound and feel.. even when I pured it.

So I put aside the AP-2 and settled on the cb710. Then started hitting the Mizuno MP-58. Again, really couldn't tell much of a difference between the two. Both felt really sweet. Then the pro ran through the fitting process and turns out I am standard everything right off the rack. Standard length, lie, and shaft... S-300 with the option to upgrade to Project X 5.5 or KBS Stiff. My swing speed was borderline X-Stiff, however the computer was telling him my tempo put me back into just the stiff.

So two things I am left with.....

1. Since I told him I was a feel player, he never set me up to hit balls into the computer. I suppose perhaps launch angle and spin results may have allowed me to better evaluate the cb710 against the MP-58? Maybe I should go back and try that?

2. He really wasn't very helpful about choosing the shafts. He claimed there is not much difference between them, but I know after spending a lot of time on these boards that is not really true. Aren't project X's lighter? What would that do to my swing/performance? What about KBS?

For anyone who read this, I thank you. I needed to get it all down on paper. I hope you experienced guys can offer some great advice. Thanks to all in advance.

- J
[/quote]

I too am a feel player. What that means is I vary my SS and swing length to influence trajectory and control distance with every iron 2-LW. If I hit a ball 3-5 times with the same club and immediately can't feel what the ball is doing without looking up, or like the trajectory if I do look up it's not for me. There's a noticeable feel difference between Titleist and Mizuno, as there's a noticeable trajectory and feel difference between PX and KBS, and DGS300's; weights are only slightly different. Shaft tips however are very different IMO.

If hitting into a net IMO that's a total waste of time. You can't see what the ball is doing down range. I would never buy a set of irons without being able to take a demo 5/6 iron out to play 18 with the ball I play; it's as simple as that. Furthermore, I don't trust most fitters, especially at retail chains.

I've hit KBS shafts in club head that's similar to my own. Ball goes much higher compared to my PX Flighted or PX standard, and they feel a bit to soft for my tastes. Also I only play taper tip shafts. My flighted 6.0's weight 125 grams, KBS tours are either 120 or 130. The 130 tours still flight the ball too high for me and feel a bit soft; due to design. Optimal trajectory is about SS and how you impact the ball; 5 grams between shafts means little.

I hit AP1's and AP2 heads higher then Mizuno, and CB's better then all three other heads, but that's me. I prefer low bounce so AP1, but don't like offset, that leaves me with either CB or 58's. Of the heads you've presented CB's would be #1 with PX but I am partial to PX because of feel, and they stand up to my swing when I want more distance from a club. That said, I wouldn't buy any of these choices because I prefer blades or very close.

[ForeRL]

I understand the desire to not pay retail prices. But if you go to a PGA Pro and get fitted through the pro and order it through the pro, you'll make a friend who may give you pointers in the future, they may have a playability guarantee in case the irons don't fit you. What part of the country are you at

[realitycheck]

[quote name='ForeRL' date='11 May 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1273609125' post='2435263']
Usually sales people at Edwin Watts and Golfsmith aren't very knowledgeable and its proved by his statement saying there aren't much difference in shafts. Shafts are the engine of the club

I suggest going to a qualified PGA professional and do an outdoor fitting so you can see the ballflight. See the ballflight makes a big difference. Or at least going to a good club guru who does indoor fittings with a trackman. Some of them like Joe Kwok know everything and can use the trackman data.
[/quote]

I disagree here. As someone who works in this business, what you see is that people can take it wayyyyyy too far. They really believe that the mythical "perfect setup' will shave those final couple of strokes and they're "tour bound." Like a cat chasing it's tail, they drive themselves nuts with torque ratings, exotic shafts, and on and on and on.

Ultimately, yes, you need a trained, solid fitter, but some people take it so far it's comical to watch them spend time, money, and stress living in the golf shop. Do some research on your own, and that will make the process easier for both the fitter and yourself.

(sorry for the rant)

[ForeRL]

[quote name='realitycheck' date='11 May 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1273619675' post='2435636']

I disagree here. As someone who works in this business, what you see is that people can take it wayyyyyy too far. They really believe that the mythical "perfect setup' will shave those final couple of strokes and they're "tour bound." Like a cat chasing it's tail, they drive themselves nuts with torque ratings, exotic shafts, and on and on and on.

Ultimately, yes, you need a trained, solid fitter, but some people take it so far it's comical to watch them spend time, money, and stress living in the golf shop. Do some research on your own, and that will make the process easier for both the fitter and yourself.

(sorry for the rant)
[/quote]

Do you believe a 20 year old kid at golfsmith can fit clubs better than a PGA professional.
At my golfsmith, they're usually early to mid 20s kids doing the fitting or a retired person who is working there to keep busy. When I tried to pick up a 38" taper tip s300, they had none and tried selling me a 41" taper tip and the 3 sales reps there gave me hard tip saying that a 41" taper tip will play the same as a 38" taper tip when cut to the same length.

[Pepperturbo]

From what I've listened to and seen, there's a big gap between "taking it wayyyy to far" or "perfect setup" and aren't very knowledgeable. Aren't very knowledgeable is closer to the truth, from my experience.

They talk like the know, but IMO, it's more for beginners that know zippo, surely not a 6 index that's hoping to better his game. I am not saying such stores don't serve a purpose, because they do. It's just I'd never go there to get fit... besides, they change faces way to often making it hard to have a trusting relationship.

[ForeRL]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='11 May 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1273620915' post='2435675']
From what I've listened to and seen, there's a big gap between "taking it wayyyy to far" or "perfect setup" and aren't very knowledgeable. Aren't very knowledgeable is closer to the truth, from my experience.

They talk like the know, but IMO, it's more for beginners that know zippo, surely not a 6 index that's hoping to better his game. I am not saying such stores don't serve a purpose, because they do. It's just I'd never go there to get fit... besides, they change faces way to often making it hard to have a trusting relationship.
[/quote]

Agreed.

If you take the effort to post on this board then you want the best fitting session possible

[realitycheck]

[quote name='ForeRL' date='11 May 2010 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1273620513' post='2435662']
[quote name='realitycheck' date='11 May 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1273619675' post='2435636']
I disagree here. As someone who works in this business, what you see is that people can take it wayyyyyy too far. They really believe that the mythical "perfect setup' will shave those final couple of strokes and they're "tour bound." Like a cat chasing it's tail, they drive themselves nuts with torque ratings, exotic shafts, and on and on and on.

Ultimately, yes, you need a trained, solid fitter, but some people take it so far it's comical to watch them spend time, money, and stress living in the golf shop. Do some research on your own, and that will make the process easier for both the fitter and yourself.

(sorry for the rant)
[/quote]

Do you believe a 20 year old kid at golfsmith can fit clubs better than a PGA professional.
At my golfsmith, they're usually early to mid 20s kids doing the fitting or a retired person who is working there to keep busy. When I tried to pick up a 38" taper tip s300, they had none and tried selling me a 41" taper tip and the 3 sales reps there gave me hard tip saying that a 41" taper tip will play the same as a 38" taper tip when cut to the same length.
[/quote]

No I don't believe that. I do, however, believer that many, not all, spend as much time with the PGA pro's in those shops listening to feedback, watching ballflights, watching and conducting fittings, etc. to at least have a very good understanding of how to properly fit a club. Now, I'm not saying there isn't some of what you're describing. There is. But, to expect Joe Kwok from a kid making $8 an hour and doing the best he can, is setting some unrealistic expectations IMO.

[ZBigStick]

[quote name='Jeeves' date='11 May 2010 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1273615535' post='2435504']
Thanks everyone for the replies. Did some searching and can't find much for outdoor fitting - especially because I may be looking to order my clubs through a third party at discount price So really looking to get a free fitting somehow.

May just go back to Edwin and try to get some data from the various shaft options.
[/quote]
Nothing good is free.

Since you are going to save money elsewhere, pay for a fitting.

[JCAG]

[quote name='ZBigStick' date='12 May 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1273638353' post='2436366']
[quote name='Jeeves' date='11 May 2010 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1273615535' post='2435504']
Thanks everyone for the replies. Did some searching and can't find much for outdoor fitting - especially because I may be looking to order my clubs through a third party at discount price So really looking to get a free fitting somehow.

May just go back to Edwin and try to get some data from the various shaft options.
[/quote]
Nothing good is free.

Since you are going to save money elsewhere, pay for a fitting.
[/quote]

Free is generally worth what you paid for it........nothing.

[suwdawg]

Here's some clubfitters in the sunshine state:

[url="http://www.agcplocator.com/html/florida.html"]http://www.agcplocator.com/html/florida.html[/url]

[vigit]

You need to go see a club fitter. You have given us no data about your spin rate, launch angle, etc. If you do not get this right, you will not be fit properly. I was in between a set of MX-300 & I-15. I really wanted to buy the MX-300, but I could not get the spin rate right with them. I went with the I-15 and could not be happier.

[Jeeves]

Thanks everybody for the great convo.... Definitely will take everything to heart and definitely want to hit outdoor on grass now