Rule Question

[slickpitt]

Unplayable in a hazard

Got a quick question. The hole is a straight away par 5. Water all down the right side, a hazard down the entire left side(red stake), generally just kind of a waste area. It gets wet sometimes, but no standing water for the most part. They're getting ready to build houses, it'll be OB eventually but right now it's a marked a red stake hazard.

Here is the scenario. My buddy hits his ball left into the hazard. The ball is playable, so he decides to hit it. He hits is left again but advances it 150 yards or so. The ball never crosses the hazard line. The ball comes to rest up against a big electrical box, in the hazard. His ball is unplayable. I'm assuming you don't get releif from an un-movable obstruction since it is in a hazard. My thought was that he can still take an unplayable, drop as far back as he wants keeping the line between him and the hole, with a one stroke penalty. I just wasn't 100% sure because he would be dropping in the hazard.

Thoughts?


About the only thing I could really find on the USGA web site is this:

Rule 28

Ball Unplayable in a Hazard

Q. May a player declare a ball in a hazard unplayable?

A. The answer depends on the type of hazard the ball is in. If the ball is in a water hazard, the player may not declare the ball unplayable. He may play the ball as it lies, or proceed under the water hazard Rule (Rule 26-1). If the unplayable ball lies in a bunker, the player may proceed under any of the options listed in Rule 28. However, if he elects option b or c, the ball must be dropped in the bunker.

[DH48]

I believe that red stakes are only used to mark lateral water hazards so technically he was in a water hazard. The definition specifically states that a marked water hazard is a water hazard whether water is present or not.

[jjj912]

Since he is an a water hazard, he must either play the ball as it lies or proceed under the water hazard rule (Rule 26). Among his options are to drop outside of the hazard or play again from the previous spot within the hazard.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

[quote name='jjj912' date='02 June 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1275494961' post='2482118']
Since he is an a water hazard, he must either play the ball as it lies or proceed under the water hazard rule (Rule 26). Among his options are to drop outside of the hazard or play again from the previous spot within the hazard.
[/quote]

I don't understand how he could drop outside the hazard since his shot never crossed never made it out of the hazard. I understand the replaying the shot option. Not questioning you per se, just asking for how it's determined he can drop outside the hazard.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Carolina Golfer 2' date='02 June 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1275496742' post='2482185']
[quote name='jjj912' date='02 June 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1275494961' post='2482118']
Since he is an a water hazard, he must either play the ball as it lies or proceed under the water hazard rule (Rule 26). Among his options are to drop outside of the hazard or play again from the previous spot within the hazard.
[/quote]

I don't understand how he could drop outside the hazard since his shot never crossed never made it out of the hazard. I understand the replaying the shot option. Not questioning you per se, just asking for how it's determined he can drop outside the hazard.
[/quote]


[b]26-2. Ball Played Within Water Hazard[/b]

[b]a. Ball Comes to Rest in Same or Another Water Hazard[/b]

If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c,
adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule
and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or

(b)
add an additional penalty of one stroke
and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which
the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or

(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or

(iii)
under penalty of one stroke,
play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).

[Carolina Golfer 2]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='02 June 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1275497224' post='2482199']
[quote name='Carolina Golfer 2' date='02 June 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1275496742' post='2482185']
[quote name='jjj912' date='02 June 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1275494961' post='2482118']
Since he is an a water hazard, he must either play the ball as it lies or proceed under the water hazard rule (Rule 26). Among his options are to drop outside of the hazard or play again from the previous spot within the hazard.
[/quote]

I don't understand how he could drop outside the hazard since his shot never crossed never made it out of the hazard. I understand the replaying the shot option. Not questioning you per se, just asking for how it's determined he can drop outside the hazard.
[/quote]


[b]26-2. Ball Played Within Water Hazard[/b]

[b]a. Ball Comes to Rest in Same or Another Water Hazard[/b]

If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c,
adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule
and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or

(b)
add an additional penalty of one stroke
and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which
the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or

(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or

(iii)
under penalty of one stroke,
play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).
[/quote]
Thanks Kevin...I actually got curious so at lunch time I took my rulebook into subway and read that definition. It is certainly good to know.

On that note, I think I'm going to make reading the rule book a regular lunchtime habit. There is just much to the rules that most of us (amateur golfers) don't realize. This ruling is a perfect example of how knowing the rules could save you possible strokes from not knowing your options.

Thanks for your knowledge!!

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Carolina Golfer 2' date='02 June 2010 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1275502084' post='2482377']
[quote name='kevcarter ' date='02 June 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1275497224' post='2482199']
[quote name='Carolina Golfer 2' date='02 June 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1275496742' post='2482185']
[quote name='jjj912' date='02 June 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1275494961' post='2482118']
Since he is an a water hazard, he must either play the ball as it lies or proceed under the water hazard rule (Rule 26). Among his options are to drop outside of the hazard or play again from the previous spot within the hazard.
[/quote]

I don't understand how he could drop outside the hazard since his shot never crossed never made it out of the hazard. I understand the replaying the shot option. Not questioning you per se, just asking for how it's determined he can drop outside the hazard.
[/quote]


[b]26-2. Ball Played Within Water Hazard[/b]

[b]a. Ball Comes to Rest in Same or Another Water Hazard[/b]

If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c,
adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule
and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or

(b)
add an additional penalty of one stroke
and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which
the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or

(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or

(iii)
under penalty of one stroke,
play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).
[/quote]
Thanks Kevin...I actually got curious so at lunch time I took my rulebook into subway and read that definition. It is certainly good to know.

On that note, I think I'm going to make reading the rule book a regular lunchtime habit. There is just much to the rules that most of us (amateur golfers) don't realize. This ruling is a perfect example of how knowing the rules could save you possible strokes from not knowing your options.

Thanks for your knowledge!!
[/quote]

Great idea!

I have a hard time remembering all the rules as well. If you look at the book every day you might not remember all of them, but you will get a much clearer picture in your head of where to look. I ALWAYS have to look it up, but I have put so much time in I generally can remember at least where to look. It makes the procedure a lot less painless. Helping here is a HUGE help with my learning, and kind words from Gentlemen like you make my day. Win/Win!

Kevin

[Carolina Golfer 2]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='02 June 2010 - 02:15 PM' timestamp='1275502506' post='2482398']
[quote name='Carolina Golfer 2' date='02 June 2010 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1275502084' post='2482377']
[quote name='kevcarter ' date='02 June 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1275497224' post='2482199']
[quote name='Carolina Golfer 2' date='02 June 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1275496742' post='2482185']
[quote name='jjj912' date='02 June 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1275494961' post='2482118']
Since he is an a water hazard, he must either play the ball as it lies or proceed under the water hazard rule (Rule 26). Among his options are to drop outside of the hazard or play again from the previous spot within the hazard.
[/quote]

I don't understand how he could drop outside the hazard since his shot never crossed never made it out of the hazard. I understand the replaying the shot option. Not questioning you per se, just asking for how it's determined he can drop outside the hazard.
[/quote]


[b]26-2. Ball Played Within Water Hazard[/b]

[b]a. Ball Comes to Rest in Same or Another Water Hazard[/b]

If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c,
adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule
and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or

(b)
add an additional penalty of one stroke
and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which
the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or

(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or

(iii)
under penalty of one stroke,
play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).
[/quote]
Thanks Kevin...I actually got curious so at lunch time I took my rulebook into subway and read that definition. It is certainly good to know.

On that note, I think I'm going to make reading the rule book a regular lunchtime habit. There is just much to the rules that most of us (amateur golfers) don't realize. This ruling is a perfect example of how knowing the rules could save you possible strokes from not knowing your options.

Thanks for your knowledge!!
[/quote]

Great idea!

I have a hard time remembering all the rules as well. If you look at the book every day you might not remember all of them, but you will get a much clearer picture in your head of where to look. I ALWAYS have to look it up, but I have put so much time in I generally can remember at least where to look. It makes the procedure a lot less painless. Helping here is a HUGE help with my learning, and kind words from Gentlemen like you make my day. Win/Win!

Kevin
[/quote]
Funny you mention you having a hard time remembering them all. I never bought into the saying Golf rules are simple, there are only 35 of them. With all the .1 and -a -b explanations it seems more like 350

But you are correct at least looking through it regularly will not only help keep familiar where to find things, but also maybe one new definition may stick each time. I always have a copy in my golf bag and often am surprised that I'm the only one in the foursome that does.

[RickK]

Kevin, am I reading this correctly?

In the scenario explained, the player hit a shot from within the hazard to another spot 150 yards or so closer to the hole but still in the same hazard. However, his ball is now in an unplayable situation. So the question, where can he take relief?

Since, with his last shot, the ball did NOT cross the margin of the hazard, in simplified terms he can go back to where the last shot was played from (in the hazard) and drop there, or he can drop outside the hazard but the point of reference for this drop has to be the point where the shot that entered the hazard in the first place crossed. In either case, he is going to have to go back at least 150 yards or more depending upon how much further back it was that the shot which got him into the hazard crossed.

Am I reading 26-2 correctly?

Thanks in advance

[slickpitt]

[quote name='RickKimbrell' date='02 June 2010 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1275508895' post='2482651']
Kevin, am I reading this correctly?

In the scenario explained, the player hit a shot from within the hazard to another spot 150 yards or so closer to the hole but still in the same hazard. However, his ball is now in an unplayable situation. So the question, where can he take relief?

Since, with his last shot, the ball did NOT cross the margin of the hazard, in simplified terms he can go back to where the last shot was played from (in the hazard) and drop there, or he can drop outside the hazard but the point of reference for this drop has to be the point where the shot that entered the hazard in the first place crossed. In either case, he is going to have to go back at least 150 yards or more depending upon how much further back it was that the shot which got him into the hazard crossed.

Am I reading 26-2 correctly?

Thanks in advance
[/quote]

That's what I'm getting out of it.

Thanks a lot for the information all! We got it wrong on the course for sure, at least it wasn't a tournament! Will know next time!

[jjj912]

[quote name='RickKimbrell' date='02 June 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275508895' post='2482651']
Kevin, am I reading this correctly?

In the scenario explained, the player hit a shot from within the hazard to another spot 150 yards or so closer to the hole but still in the same hazard. However, his ball is now in an unplayable situation. So the question, where can he take relief?

Since, with his last shot, the ball did NOT cross the margin of the hazard, in simplified terms he can go back to where the last shot was played from (in the hazard) and drop there, or he can drop outside the hazard but the point of reference for this drop has to be the point where the shot that [b]entered the hazard in the first place crossed[/b]. In either case, he is going to have to go back at least 150 yards or more depending upon how much further back it was that the shot which got him into the hazard crossed.

Am I reading 26-2 correctly?

Thanks in advance
[/quote]


Yes, you are reading 26-2 correctly except that the reference point is "last crossed", not "first crossed". That distinction is important because on an oddly shaped water hazard, the ball can pass in and out of the water hazard multiple times before it comes to rest (the margins of the hazard extend vertically upwards). That said, from the description of the hazard in this situation, first crossed is the same as last crossed. In any event, it makes you think twice about playing from a water hazard doesn't it?

[grabthepin]

[quote name='RickKimbrell' date='02 June 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275508895' post='2482651']
Kevin, am I reading this correctly?

In the scenario explained, the player hit a shot from within the hazard to another spot 150 yards or so closer to the hole but still in the same hazard. However, his ball is now in an unplayable situation. So the question, where can he take relief?

Since, with his last shot, the ball did NOT cross the margin of the hazard, in simplified terms he can go back to where the last shot was played from (in the hazard) and drop there, or he can drop outside the hazard but the point of reference for this drop has to be the point where the shot that entered the hazard in the first place crossed. In either case, he is going to have to go back at least 150 yards or more depending upon how much further back it was that the shot which got him into the hazard crossed.

Am I reading 26-2 correctly?

Thanks in advance
[/quote]

Plus the ball can also dropped at the last place outside the hazard hit from (26-2(iii)), which would mean going back even farther.

[youraway2]

Since the ball is still in the hazard, even though it has been played from within the hazard, the player can always opt to go back to the position where he last played a shot outside of the hazard if he declares his ball unplayable. This with a stroke penalty. So his second went into the hazard, his third shot is still in the hazard and unplayable. He deems his ball unplayable and can go back to the postion his ball was last played outside the hazard (I believe that was the position of his second shot). After dropping he's now playing his 5th shot.

1 - played from teeing ground
2 - into the hazard
3- trys to play it but stays in hazard (declared unplayable)
4- drop ball back into play at 2nd shot position
5- Have fun

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='youraway2' date='04 June 2010 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1275668911' post='2486143']
Since the ball is still in the hazard, even though it has been played from within the hazard, the player can always opt to go back to the position where he last played a shot outside of the hazard if he declares his ball unplayable. This with a stroke penalty. So his second went into the hazard, his third shot is still in the hazard and unplayable. He deems his ball unplayable and can go back to the postion his ball was last played outside the hazard (I believe that was the position of his second shot). After dropping he's now playing his 5th shot.

1 - played from teeing ground
2 - into the hazard
3- trys to play it but stays in hazard (declared unplayable)
4- drop ball back into play at 2nd shot position
5- Have fun
[/quote]

Technically, you may not "declare your ball unplayable" if it's in a water hazard. Nevertheless, you have described one of the valid relief options from a water hazard, and the appropriate penalty. There are other relief options from a water hazard as well, but there are two relief options from an unplayable lie which are not available to someone who is in a water hazard.

Rule 28. Ball Unplayable
[b]Definitions[/b]
All defined terms are in [i]italics[/i] and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url], except when the ball is in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#WaterHazard"][i]water hazard[/i][/url]. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

[mills225]

This is very good information.