the hardest piece to execute in Hogan's swing?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1281558656' post='2632947']
Furyk is definitely the rare exception and allows himself to rotate with his right elbow in punch position. To do this, you cannot have any right arm hit impulse.
[/quote]

And that might be the reason for his great consistency. What would happen if he gets more rotation speed and little bit more space to his posture for the hands?

One more name came just to my mind: Hunter Mahan.

[Guest]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281555991' post='2632855']
[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1281552887' post='2632771']
I think this is what they're talking about
[/quote]
Yup,that's the move.The right elbow goes forward at greater rate than the hands to start the downswing.
[/quote]

Interesting commet, not quite sure how Hogans elbow moves forward ar a greater rate without the hands moving at the same rate. Maybe your judging by proximity to ball, not sure? 1lovegolf

[Dariusz J.]

As said earlier a few times, Furyk's case is the best prove that [b]the body-guided downswing on the EEP at 90* angle perpendicular to the spine (what is a common amongst all best ballstrikers in history)[/b] is ultimately the most important thing, more important than distinction between pitch/punch elbow procedures.
However, leading with the rear elbow is IMO biokinetically the most efficient method of achieving the EEP (because it subdues the elbow joint to the body rotation as quick as possible without taking away the inertial power of both forearms) - hence my fascination with this "disorder" move, perfectly shown on the attached Hogan's photos above.
The "stall" (maybe is not the best word to describe the lack of further movement of the rear elbow joint) is crucial. No independent arm motion in relation to the body rotation from that point. Furyk achieves his own "stall" by placing the rear elbow behind his rear hip - it does not move forward until follow through and looks like he's "stuck" - but of course, he isn't thanks to his excellent body rotation.

Cheers

[JD3]

Dariusz,

Couldn't what you describe as a "stall" be a hold over of his earlier days as a smallish kid trying to whip it inside to hit runny hooks for distance, versus an essential dynamic of his swing? To the best of my knowledge he never presented it as the latter. Seems like everyone that tries to mimic it do themselves more harm than good. There are other ways to have the elbow in that position on the DS.

[Guest]

Sorry guys, not sure I see a stall. I believe Hogans swing is quite dynamic and contiuous. Also, If I may, not sure what the problem is with Hogans elbow in transition or concern about getting stuck or to far out . I believe Hogans evry move is efficient and under control. Full extention and flexion is key to all Hogans moves. Anyone can do them if you let go of preconcieved ideas on how to create power and concentrate on control and your own unique hitting position. Of course this is just my opinion, thanks. 1lovegolf

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1281562314' post='2633093']
Dariusz,

Couldn't what you describe as a "stall" be a hold over of his earlier days as a smallish kid trying to whip it inside to hit runny hooks for distance, versus an essential dynamic of his swing? To the best of my knowledge he never presented it as the latter. Seems like everyone that tries to mimic it do themselves more harm than good. There are other ways to have the elbow in that position on the DS.
[/quote]

Very thought-provoking post, JD. Who knows, maybe this is it. It has already slipped into my mind that this move is unconscious, but because of some "accustomization" from early days.
And I totally agree that everyone that tries to mimic the "disorder" do themselves more harm than good (especially if they saw Schlee YT videos...ughh).

Cheers


[quote name='left right' timestamp='1281564312' post='2633162']
Sorry guys, not sure I see a stall. I believe Hogans swing is quite dynamic and contiuous. Also, If I may, not sure what the problem is with Hogans elbow in transition or concern about getting stuck or to far out . I believe Hogans evry move is efficient and under control. Full extention and flexion is key to all Hogans moves. Anyone can do them if you let go of preconcieved ideas on how to create power and concentrate on control and your own unique hitting position. Of course this is just my opinion, thanks. 1lovegolf
[/quote]

It's a "stall" in relation to HIS moving body that means not stall in relation to the ground or an observer.
Good point - it should have been underlined before.

Cheers

[Guest]

Isn't this move automatically what happens when you use the lower body correctly?

[dap]

[quote name='left right' timestamp='1281561070' post='2633038']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281555991' post='2632855']
[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1281552887' post='2632771']
I think this is what they're talking about
[/quote]
Yup,that's the move.The right elbow goes forward at greater rate than the hands to start the downswing.
[/quote]

Interesting commet, not quite sure how Hogans elbow moves forward ar a greater rate without the hands moving at the same rate. Maybe your judging by proximity to ball, not sure? 1lovegolf
[/quote]
By going forward,I meant out towards the target line not out towards the target.The pics show that very clearly.

[Guest]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281586649' post='2633976']
[quote name='left right' timestamp='1281561070' post='2633038']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281555991' post='2632855']
[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1281552887' post='2632771']
I think this is what they're talking about
[/quote]
Yup,that's the move.The right elbow goes forward at greater rate than the hands to start the downswing.
[/quote]

Interesting commet, not quite sure how Hogans elbow moves forward ar a greater rate without the hands moving at the same rate. Maybe your judging by proximity to ball, not sure? 1lovegolf
[/quote]
By going forward,I meant out towards the target line not out towards the target.The pics show that very clearly.
[/quote]

You may be right on this particular swing. What, in you opinion, initiates Hogans downswing? Thanks. 1lovegolf

[dap]

[quote name='left right' timestamp='1281587847' post='2634006']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281586649' post='2633976']
[quote name='left right' timestamp='1281561070' post='2633038']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281555991' post='2632855']
[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1281552887' post='2632771']
I think this is what they're talking about
[/quote]
Yup,that's the move.The right elbow goes forward at greater rate than the hands to start the downswing.
[/quote]

Interesting commet, not quite sure how Hogans elbow moves forward ar a greater rate without the hands moving at the same rate. Maybe your judging by proximity to ball, not sure? 1lovegolf
[/quote]
By going forward,I meant out towards the target line not out towards the target.The pics show that very clearly.
[/quote]

You may be right on this particular swing. What, in you opinion, initiates Hogans downswing? Thanks. 1lovegolf
[/quote]
Far be it for me to speculate on what Hogan did to initiate the downswing.He says in Modern Fundamentals that the order of movement is hips,shoulders,arms and then hands.What I conclude from that is that the lower body initiates while the hands and club hold still for a split second or even perhaps still going back.

What is clear from video is his right elbow not only going forward but also dropping well below the left elbow.This indicates to me a clockwise rotation of the arm triangle assembly.This is how he flattens the shaft.It is evident in many of his swings not just this particular one.

I doubt Hogan would have even known this move existed in his swing.Some players just do it naturally.

Wha

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281586649' post='2633976']
[
By going forward,I meant out towards the target line not out towards the target.The pics show that very clearly.
[/quote]

But according what, thats the question. I give a tip: There can be huge 2D illusion in that picture

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1281593768' post='2634098']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281586649' post='2633976']
[
By going forward,I meant out towards the target line not out towards the target.The pics show that very clearly.
[/quote]

But according what, thats the question. I give a tip: There can be huge 2D illusion in that picture
[/quote]
2D cameras still has it's usefulness for comparitive purposes.You won't see a player like Tim Clark or McDowell have the same move with the right elbow from a similar camera angle.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281595029' post='2634108']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1281593768' post='2634098']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281586649' post='2633976']
[
By going forward,I meant out towards the target line not out towards the target.The pics show that very clearly.
[/quote]

But according what, thats the question. I give a tip: There can be huge 2D illusion in that picture
[/quote]
2D cameras still has it's usefulness for comparitive purposes.You won't see a player like Tim Clark or McDowell have the same move with the right elbow from a similar camera angle.
[/quote]


I didn't mean that. But real position of right shoulder is impossible to figure out from that angle because of 2D illusion

[Guest]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281592233' post='2634079']
[quote name='left right' timestamp='1281587847' post='2634006']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281586649' post='2633976']
[quote name='left right' timestamp='1281561070' post='2633038']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281555991' post='2632855']
[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1281552887' post='2632771']
I think this is what they're talking about
[/quote]
Yup,that's the move.The right elbow goes forward at greater rate than the hands to start the downswing.
[/quote]

Interesting commet, not quite sure how Hogans elbow moves forward ar a greater rate without the hands moving at the same rate. Maybe your judging by proximity to ball, not sure? 1lovegolf
[/quote]
By going forward,I meant out towards the target line not out towards the target.The pics show that very clearly.
[/quote]

You may be right on this particular swing. What, in you opinion, initiates Hogans downswing? Thanks. 1lovegolf
[/quote]
Far be it for me to speculate on what Hogan did to initiate the downswing.He says in Modern Fundamentals that the order of movement is hips,shoulders,arms and then hands.What I conclude from that is that the lower body initiates while the hands and club hold still for a split second or even perhaps still going back.

What is clear from video is his right elbow not only going forward but also dropping well below the left elbow.This indicates to me a clockwise rotation of the arm triangle assembly.This is how he flattens the shaft.It is evident in many of his swings not just this particular one.

I doubt Hogan would have even known this move existed in his swing.Some players just do it naturally.

Wha
[/quote]

Dap, now we are conversing on the same page. I have never read Hogans 5 lessons.
I wanted to decifer as much as I could from viewing his swing as a whole.

The first thing that caught my eye was that Hogan initiated his downswing before his backswing was complete. The second thing I noticed is that it started with the left knee.

This lead me to the shoulder wrist and elbow coalition of moves that the left knee started.

Simoutaniously

1. Left knee

2. Left wrist uncupping(open clubface)

3. Shoulder rotation

4.Right elbow to hip and clubhead drop by consequence of shoulder turn.

Obviously swing path and intent on target will vary sequence and severity of rotation. That is why Hogans swing in my opinion is so dynamic and difficult to decifer, every swing is different with the exception of 3 things he does on every swing. Thanks Dap for sharing and listening. 1lovegolf

[grahler]

The hardest aspect of Hogan to me is the pivot-repeating an action that resembles his is extremely difficult-the dynamic balance is unbelievable.
That is what allows him to have such a pure rotation on downswing.
For me everything above the hips that he did was difficult-but how many folks can show videos of themselves with anything like Hogan's hip action?
I think if one so inclined could replace their hip move with Hogan's the armswing would be an inevitable consequence.

[Guest]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1281669417' post='2635718']
The hardest aspect of Hogan to me is the pivot-repeating an action that resembles his is extremely difficult-the dynamic balance is unbelievable.
That is what allows him to have such a pure rotation on downswing.
For me everything above the hips that he did was difficult-but how many folks can show videos of themselves with anything like Hogan's hip action?
I think if one so inclined could replace their hip move with Hogan's the armswing would be an inevitable consequence.
[/quote]


Nice observation, we pay attention to the sizzle and forget the steak. I must digress and study the hips more closely. Thanks grahler. 1lovegolf

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1281453251' post='2630044']


Alex Noren probably does this move better than any other pro on tour right now.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oNxdx9icG28&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oNxdx9icG28&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>
[/quote]

What was the date for that video? I know he tried to change that drop a while ago and now going back to his old style which has been with lot of drop and keeping hands inside.

[michaelgb888]

Seems like the key is rotation in the DS? The less you rotate the more you have to actively delay and thus stall the right elbow? The faster you rotate, the more the right elbow stalls on its own?

What is the best way then to rotate the fastest? Should the weight be on the left foot asap to be able to turn in DS? Or should weight remain in right foot because putting it on left foot results to a stall?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1283056910' post='2666469']
Seems like the key is rotation in the DS? The less you rotate the more you have to actively delay and thus stall the right elbow? The faster you rotate, the more the right elbow stalls on its own?

[/quote]

I see that totally opposite. It's maybe because players who rotate faster have to make bigger opposite move with hands and elbow.

[powerfade66]

The right elbow stall is a big part of his downswing if he is to be believed during the slow motion part of the Coleman video. I think this has been mentioned before but is worth noting.

It makes sense. If we don't do this the arms move too far in front of the body in a lateral direction towards the target. The move that feels most powerful coming down is to move the arms sideways quickly to add to pivot speed. If we do this too much, and have the downswing sequenced correctly so the clubhead lags, then the clubhead will be stuck.

On the backswing the arms move sideways and up.

On the downswing they move sideways and down.

I think the key is to not see the downswing sideways aspect as a power move. Not as far as it being independent of the body goes anyway. The natural urge is to move the arms more powerfully coming down so we have to temper their movement so as not to overdo how much they move in space. A very efficient way of thinking about this is to return the elbows roughly to the hip sockets and then have all the bits do their thing together as far as RPMs go. The arms can help and their natural exuberance can add authority, just don't let them steal the show.

I disagree with getting the left arm too close to the chest at the start of the downswing. I think a late down move with the left arm was a big part of his swing. There are many photos (but alas I cannot find them! one from Time springs to mind) that show his left arm seemingly too high and away from his body (from dtl) approaching impact and then at impact and beyond his signature low left takes over. This feels very powerful. Especially when combined with left forearm rotation to square up the open triangle (as mentioned above).

I think if the left arm is close early then you've lost a major power source.

One last point. Slightly away from the topic. If we don't have much in the way of sideways thrust of the arms there shouldn't be a danger of flipping if the body rotation is adequate, but, with the stalling elbows reducing this sideways aspect, the wrists can be used (slightly bowed left and bent right) to manipulate the geometry slightly and give a feeling of a very square clubhead path during the impact interval. A beautiful feeling I think. One that will lead to disaster with too much sideways arm movement coming down.

[Matt1960]

I would agree with this, and the left arm must not be pinned to the body till impact and beyond.
The reason for Hogan's low and left, is because of a greater torso rotation than arm re-elevation after impact.
Any player with a high finish, has a greater arm re-elevation than torso rotation.
I am a great believer in minimising the lateral motion of the arms, which forces the torso to run the show. But the arms must have vertical motion, for which the torso accelerates this downward motion in the downswing.
Too much lateral motion, causes the body to compensate and often stall (apart from Furyk), leading to all kinds of errors.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Matt1960' timestamp='1283094563' post='2666827']
I would agree with this, and the left arm must not be pinned to the body till impact and beyond.
The reason for Hogan's low and left, is because of a greater torso rotation than arm re-elevation after impact.
Any player with a high finish, has a greater arm re-elevation than torso rotation.
I am a great believer in minimising the lateral motion of the arms, which forces the torso to run the show. But the arms must have vertical motion, for which the torso accelerates this downward motion in the downswing.
Too much lateral motion, causes the body to compensate and often stall (apart from Furyk), leading to all kinds of errors.
[/quote]

I don't really know if I get Your posting right way, but I wonder how anyone can be shoulders open at impact without that left arm is pinned to the body?

[SundayRed]

One of the things I think you guys have neglected to address in this thread, is the importance of rythm to Hogan's swing. To my eyes, very few people have exhibited such beautiful timing and rythm in their swing and approached anything near Hogan's ballstriking.

See this video for Hogan's wondeful swing in slow motion:

[url="http://media.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid194.photobucket.com/albums/z198/hardpan67/Hogan_Magic_Swing.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1"]http://media.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid194.photobucket.com/albums/z198/hardpan67/Hogan_Magic_Swing.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1[/url]

[powerfade66]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1283102828' post='2667012']
[quote name='Matt1960' timestamp='1283094563' post='2666827']
I would agree with this, and the left arm must not be pinned to the body till impact and beyond.
The reason for Hogan's low and left, is because of a greater torso rotation than arm re-elevation after impact.
Any player with a high finish, has a greater arm re-elevation than torso rotation.
I am a great believer in minimising the lateral motion of the arms, which forces the torso to run the show. But the arms must have vertical motion, for which the torso accelerates this downward motion in the downswing.
Too much lateral motion, causes the body to compensate and often stall (apart from Furyk), leading to all kinds of errors.
[/quote]

I don't really know if I get Your posting right way, but I wonder how anyone can be shoulders open at impact without that left arm is pinned to the body?



[/quote]

[size="2"]The left arm is pinned to the body shortly prior to impact. It is part of his release into impact. Matt1960 says this above in his first sentence.[/size] [size="2"]I think his arms and body worked independently somewhat more than most think. They worked together, sure, but the arms weren't entirely subservient to the will of the body. They had an agenda of their own that was very useful. Can anyone see how this move could be veryuseful both in eliminating hooks and producing fades?[/size]
[size="3"][size=2]
[/size][/size] [attachment=648912:hoganlifeapproachingimpactclose.jpg]


[attachment=648913:hoganimpact.gif]

[Matt1960]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1283102828' post='2667012']
[quote name='Matt1960' timestamp='1283094563' post='2666827']
I would agree with this, and the left arm must not be pinned to the body till impact and beyond.
The reason for Hogan's low and left, is because of a greater torso rotation than arm re-elevation after impact.
Any player with a high finish, has a greater arm re-elevation than torso rotation.
I am a great believer in minimising the lateral motion of the arms, which forces the torso to run the show. But the arms must have vertical motion, for which the torso accelerates this downward motion in the downswing.
Too much lateral motion, causes the body to compensate and often stall (apart from Furyk), leading to all kinds of errors.
[/quote]

I don't really know if I get Your posting right way, but I wonder how anyone can be shoulders open at impact without that left arm is pinned to the body?



[/quote]


Yes, I understand your point. But it would depend how open the shoulders and how far the hands are ahead of the clubhead.
Hogan did vary this a bit through his career, and with each differing shot.
My own view is that Hogan had his left arm away from his body untill near impact. He then pinned it through impact and rotated his torso much quicker than most. This gave him the low and left finish.
I dont think there was any left arm pinning before the shoulders were perpendicular to the camera at impact from FO. But of course the left arm was getting closer to the body as impact neared.

One of the difficulties I have when studying Hogans motion and positions, is the camera angle in relation to his body angles and he can look very different when the camera angle is just a few degrees off.
So for me this becomes a judgement issue, but I do like to see his positions when the camera is perpendicular to the shoulders. Most of the shots of him are a bit off.
As an example, at address from FO his shoulders are reasonably perpendicular to the camera, but at the top of the BS from DTL, his shoulders may have rotated more or less than 90 degrees and if so, throws my angles off.
Again near impact, from FO, his shoulders are square to the camera slightly before impact, and by impact the angles are again thrown off.

But if you are implying that he pinned his left arm to his body through the swing, then I have to respectfully disagree.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Matt1960' timestamp='1283185350' post='2668856']

My own view is that Hogan had his left arm away from his body untill near impact. He then pinned it through impact and rotated his torso much quicker than most. This gave him the low and left finish.
I dont think there was any left arm pinning before the shoulders were perpendicular to the camera at impact from FO. But of course the left arm was getting closer to the body as impact neared.


[/quote]

I see that is impossible in biomechanical aspect. Also movements just before transition and just after it tells something else. Hands came much more straight down that rotation of shoulders should get them.

[HoganAfficianado]

When you say pinned the left arm to the body, what part of the left arm are you referring to? Lets say Hogan stuck a tee in his left arm pit, where would it fall out?

[Matt1960]

[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1283236750' post='2670759']
When you say pinned the left arm to the body, what part of the left arm are you referring to? Lets say Hogan stuck a tee in his left arm pit, where would it fall out?


[/quote]

A tee peg in the armpit, would and should have fallen out by mid BS.

I believe what happens is that at address, if we look DTL, there is an angle between torso and left arm of maybe about 35 degrees (club dependant). By the top of the backswing this angle has increased to around 90 degrees. Thats a 65 degree vertical movement of the arms. By comparison, the lateral motion is much smaller, maybe 15-20 degrees.

As I believe Hogan had his torso rotating faster than most through impact, I believe the left arm pressure to torso nearer to the side of the chest than the front.
This would be the inside of the very upper part of the arm near to the armpit. Maybe pinned is a poor choice of words.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Matt1960' timestamp='1283242151' post='2670816']
[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1283236750' post='2670759']
When you say pinned the left arm to the body, what part of the left arm are you referring to? Lets say Hogan stuck a tee in his left arm pit, where would it fall out?


[/quote]

A tee peg in the armpit, would and should have fallen out by mid BS.

I believe what happens is that at address, if we look DTL, there is an angle between torso and left arm of maybe about 35 degrees (club dependant). By the top of the backswing this angle has increased to around 90 degrees. Thats a 65 degree vertical movement of the arms. By comparison, the lateral motion is much smaller, maybe 15-20 degrees.

As I believe Hogan had his torso rotating faster than most through impact, I believe the left arm pressure to torso nearer to the side of the chest than the front.
This would be the inside of the very upper part of the arm near to the armpit. Maybe pinned is a poor choice of words.
[/quote]

And there is still more angle between left arm and shoulders at impact that there was at address. About 20 degrees more.

[Matt1960]

TeeAce,
It would depend how you are measuring your angles and where.
I dont see an extra 20 degrees in this photo, can you?
By the way, I have estimated the spine angle/tilt, as we have to remember that the spine is on our backs and not in the centre of our bodies.