Lost ball and out of bounds rule?

[aliikane]

I think the lost ball, out of bounds rule should be changed.

 

A lot of times you think you hit a good shot that should have no problem with it then to find out it is just marginally out of bounds or a lost ball that is just off the fairway and should of been easy to find. To go back to the tee and hit another ball can take a lot of time especially when the course is crowded and you are walking like 15 to 20 minutes. Also, you are completely stopping play behind you for all the groups.

 

It just not practical to play this rule unless no one is on the course. In a tournament I guess you have to play this rule. How many of you play this rule?

[Harry Longshanks]

Play a provisional ball. If there is even the slightest chance of lost or OB.

If nothing else, it gives you another practice swing to re-groove your driver.

[Guia]

If we are being pressed from behind and can't return to where originally played (for fear of being beaten to death) we add 2 strokes (so we are now hitting 4) and play from nearest point of entry or where we think it was lost. Not within the rules but saves time.

[edwjmcgrath]

In baseball, when you hit a great ball and it's going to be a home run but just misses the pole and ends up foul, I think thay should give you a double.
After all it's just barely foul and you hit a really great ball and you're already on your way to second base. Why should you have to go all the way back to home plate and hit over again when it's just barely out of the park?

[petter7]

[quote name='edwjmcgrath' timestamp='1283846784' post='2682853']
In baseball, when you hit a great ball and it's going to be a home run but just misses the pole and ends up foul, I think thay should give you a double.
After all it's just barely foul and you hit a really great ball and you're already on your way to second base. Why should you have to go all the way back to home plate and hit over again when it's just barely out of the park?
[/quote]

Perfect.

[BogeyDog11]

[quote name='Harry Longshanks' timestamp='1283833716' post='2682741']
Play a provisional ball. If there is even the slightest chance of lost or OB.

If nothing else, it gives you another practice swing to re-groove your driver.
[/quote]


+2. This is the very reason they added the provisional option.

[grabthepin]

[quote name='aliikane' timestamp='1283833507' post='2682739']
It just not practical to play this rule unless no one is on the course. In a tournament I guess you have to play this rule. How many of you play this rule?
[/quote]

And in non-tournament golf, you don't have to play by the Rules of Golf so I don't see the problem. Even handicap rounds don't have to be played 100% played to the Rules of Golf.

Gaia's two stroke penalty is too lenient. On some tight courses on bad driving days I 'd choose that option over playing a provisional to save any chance of losing another one off the tee. I played with a 7 marker the other day who sprayed his tee shot and 3 provisionals OOB--he would have loved to just drop his ball 250 from the tee and be playing 4 instead of 10..

I feel a three shot penalty is more appropriate--some may think it's too harsh, but it sure encourages the use of a provisional.

[bigred90gt]

Hitting a provisional is the way to go, when you think your ball could be lost or out of bounds. But, the OP did not ask what to do if you thought your ball could be lost or out of bounds when you are still on the tee box. The question is about once you hit the ball, and from the tee box watch it, and follow it until it lands, and think to yourself, that is in play, I'll go find it and hit it, but when you get there, it is nowhere to be found (remember, since we're playing by the rules, you are only allowed 5 minutes to find it), or just OB (perhaps you did not know OB was in the area you hit your ball). In that case, you would not hit a provisional because you clearly saw the ball land, and were confident you could find it. On a crowded course, with everyone ready to kill you for trying to play by the rules, what do you do then?

[tElihu]

I don't see any reason why OB and lost ball penalties are more penal than hitting your ball into a pond, especially these days where OB can be a couple of yards off the course.

But to change the rules now would affect all of the records of golf. (And the rule is the same for everyone.)

[teejaywhy]

Unhappy with the stiff penalty for shots OB or lost? PLAY BETTER COURSES.

Golf is supposed to be fun. So many of these modern design courses are just awful. Lined with houses and OB or with thick trees or vegetation that eat balls. Totally against the basic premise of golf - hit it, find it, hit it again.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='tElihu' timestamp='1283863798' post='2682982']
I don't see any reason why OB and lost ball penalties are more penal than hitting your ball into a pond, especially these days where OB can be a couple of yards off the course.

But to change the rules now would affect all of the records of golf. (And the rule is the same for everyone.)
[/quote]

I find the variation in penalty for o.b./lost vs. water hazard to add to the strategic interest of golf.

Water hazard says, "I dare you." O.B., or areas of deep trees, say, "Stay away!"

Having to consider throttling back occasionally, perhaps at two different levels, makes the game more interesting.

[AcesAZ]

Heres another question along the same lines. Was wondering if someone could clear it up, Ive asked a rules official before and not sure he even knew. Lets say you hit a ball and its headed for the woods but its marked as a hazard, you think its in the woods but not sure, you also dont know where it crossed if it even did. Is it OK to play a provisional at that point or not? It gives the player an advantage of playing possibly either ball at that point.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='AcesAZ' timestamp='1283867952' post='2683049']
Heres another question along the same lines. Was wondering if someone could clear it up, Ive asked a rules official before and not sure he even knew. Lets say you hit a ball and its headed for the woods but its marked as a hazard, you think its in the woods but not sure, you also dont know where it crossed if it even did. Is it OK to play a provisional at that point or not? It gives the player an advantage of playing possibly either ball at that point.
[/quote]

The question is a little vague... If the woods are marked as a hazard (not recommended but it happens), then they are a hazard.

Could the ball be lost outside the hazard?

Kevin


[color="#0000FF"][b]27-2. Provisional Ball[/b][/color]

[b]a. Procedure[/b]

If a ball [i][b]may[/b][/i] be lost outside a water hazard or [i][b]may[/b][/i] be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

[AcesAZ]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1283868356' post='2683053']
[quote name='AcesAZ' timestamp='1283867952' post='2683049']
Heres another question along the same lines. Was wondering if someone could clear it up, Ive asked a rules official before and not sure he even knew. Lets say you hit a ball and its headed for the woods but its marked as a hazard, you think its in the woods but not sure, you also dont know where it crossed if it even did. Is it OK to play a provisional at that point or not? It gives the player an advantage of playing possibly either ball at that point.
[/quote]

The question is a little vague... If the woods are marked as a hazard (not recommended but it happens), then they are a hazard.

Could the ball be lost outside the hazard?

Kevin


[color="#0000FF"][b]27-2. Provisional Ball[/b][/color]

[b]a. Procedure[/b]

If a ball [i][b]may[/b][/i] be lost outside a water hazard or [i][b]may[/b][/i] be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
[/quote]

OK the question is can you hit a provisional if you are fairly certain the ball is in the hazard?

[chickenpotpie]

In my league, we allow a choice to re-tee with a 1-stroke penalty, or drop at point of entry with a 2-stroke penalty. I get the arguments presented against the drop option, but I play against a lot of 20+ cappers in my league. No one wants to spend all day on the tee, holding up the groups behind.

[hoganfan924]

The OP's point is reasonable considering that the rules of golf are ever changing and that at one point in the history of the rules, OB was only a distance penalty and I believe at another time it was only a stroke penalty. I kind of like the distance penalty option but that doesn't resolve the going back to the tee problem on a crowed course, which would only leave the 1 stroke penalty option and OB being played like a lateral hazard.

IMO, courses should be more careful about deciding what is OB staked and what is lateral hazard staked in order to maintain the pace of play. Of course they have no choice when a boundary fence is defining the OB. One of my pet peeves is OB stakes within the boundary of the course (OB between parallel holes for example).

But concerning the lost ball, you can't just employ a stroke penalty because you have no way of knowing where the ball was lost, therefore only a distance penalty would be a feasible change to the rules, which doesn't address the slow play problem.

[jjj912]

[quote name='AcesAZ' timestamp='1283868723' post='2683066']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1283868356' post='2683053']
[quote name='AcesAZ' timestamp='1283867952' post='2683049']
Heres another question along the same lines. Was wondering if someone could clear it up, Ive asked a rules official before and not sure he even knew. Lets say you hit a ball and its headed for the woods but its marked as a hazard, you think its in the woods but not sure, you also dont know where it crossed if it even did. Is it OK to play a provisional at that point or not? It gives the player an advantage of playing possibly either ball at that point.
[/quote]

The question is a little vague... If the woods are marked as a hazard (not recommended but it happens), then they are a hazard.

Could the ball be lost outside the hazard?

Kevin


[color="#0000FF"][b]27-2. Provisional Ball[/b][/color]

[b]a. Procedure[/b]

If a ball [i][b]may[/b][/i] be lost outside a water hazard or [i][b]may[/b][/i] be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
[/quote]

OK the question is can you hit a provisional if you are fairly certain the ball is in the hazard?
[/quote]

Not unless you believe that the original ball may be lost outside of a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The posibility that the original ball may be in a water hazard doesn't preclude you from hitting a provisional ball if you think the original ball may be lost outside of a water hazard or may be out of bounds. However, you may not hit a provisional ball solely because the original ball may be in a water hazard.

[BogeyDog11]

[quote name='bigred90gt' timestamp='1283863370' post='2682967']
Hitting a provisional is the way to go, when you think your ball could be lost or out of bounds. But, the OP did not ask what to do if you thought your ball could be lost or out of bounds when you are still on the tee box. [b]The question is about once you hit the ball, and from the tee box watch it, and follow it until it lands, and think to yourself, that is in play, I'll go find it and hit it, but when you get there, it is nowhere to be found (remember, since we're playing by the rules, you are only allowed 5 minutes to find it)[/b], or just OB (perhaps you did not know OB was in the area you hit your ball). In that case, you would not hit a provisional because you clearly saw the ball land, and were confident you could find it. On a crowded course, with everyone ready to kill you for trying to play by the rules, what do you do then?
[/quote]

If you are playing by the rules of golf as you stated, you return to the tee and hit your 3rd shot.
You can always wave the next group thru and return to the tee as they are leaving the tee.
In returning to the tee, you are not hitting a provisional, you are putting your 3rd shot in play.

[phil75070]

[quote name='Harry Longshanks' timestamp='1283833716' post='2682741']
Play a provisional ball. If there is even the slightest chance of lost or OB.


[/quote]

That is just not practical on some courses. At my home course, what makes it so difficult is the rough, often cut to 4 inches but higher between mowings where a ball can be just off the fairway and difficult to find. For our foursome yesterday, for example, it was a bad day of ball striking and I bet we lost 4 balls in the rough not far from the fairway and spent a lot of time looking for others. To hit a "provisional ball" every time one misses the fairway isn't the solution.

In a tournament it is one thing, but we play match play so you lose a ball you lose the hole. We drop one in the area we believe the ball to have ended up and play out the hole, recording the most likely score with an asterisk, then the score ultimately gets adjusted for ESC anyway. If you AND you opponent both lose a ball, then the hole is halved.

[jjj912]

Under the current incarnation of the Rules, if you drop where the ball went out of bounds and play from that spot, you should incur three penalty strokes, not two. That's one penalty stroke for hitting the ball out of bounds, and two penalty strokes for playing from the wrong place. So if you hit a ball out of bounds, drop and hit a ball onto the green, and take two putts to hole out, your score is 7.

Although not really relevant given the topic of the thread, note that the Rules call for a DQ if playing from the wrong place means that the player has committed a serious breach of the Rules (i.e. gained a significant advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place).

Should the Rules be changed to allow a player to drop at the point where the ball went OB under a penalty? I think I'm indifferent. As for the penalty, while a two stroke penalty more closely matches the current stroke and distance penalty, a one stroke penalty would be consistent with all the other Rules related to obtaining relief. Under a regime where the player is penalized one stroke and allowed to drop at the point where the ball went OB, hitting the ball OB becomes like hitting it into a water hazard. Is this fair?

[KevCarter]

[quote name='jjj912' timestamp='1283870547' post='2683128']
Not unless you believe that the original ball may be lost outside of a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The posibility that the original ball may be in a water hazard doesn't preclude you from hitting a provisional ball if you think the original ball may be lost outside of a water hazard or may be out of bounds. However, you may not hit a provisional ball solely because the original ball may be in a water hazard.
[/quote]

Perfect answer. Thank you.

Kevin

[Par Fore]

Here's a variation on the question, kind of. I live in the Southwest and play a couple of desert courses. Off of the fairways is sand, sage brush, ect (bear in mind that these areas are not marked as OB or hazzard), the other day the starter says, something like, we ask that if you hit your ball in the desert to drop as if it is a lateral hazzard. I assume this is to speed up play since you can easily hit the ball in the desert and spend a while looking for it, or you can find it right off and play if if possible. So i'm playing the course and hit a bomb right in the desert, I hit a provisional determined to correct my right shot pull a hook left desert, crap, so I get mad and swing away and hit my thrid tee shot right down the guts. I'm pissed because I know that my first two balls will be lost so I'm laying 5. Then I remember the starter telling us to play the desert as a lateral so I drop three from where I assume my first ball crossed, I did look for the ball but could not find it. play was slow that day as it tends to be in 105 degree temps. So, I feel like I cheated, but was I within the rules? I haven't seen that rules posted anywhere, so do I trust the starter or trust my guts?

[Newby]

[quote name='Par Fore' timestamp='1283874998' post='2683271']
So, I feel like I cheated, but was I within the rules? I haven't seen that rules posted anywhere, so do I trust the starter or trust my guts?
[/quote]

The Decision says they can't do that but they have. The USGA aren't there so do what the man asks you to do.

[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-33/#33-8/35"]Link to Decision[/url]

[Harry Longshanks]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1283876522' post='2683335']
[quote name='Par Fore' timestamp='1283874998' post='2683271']
So, I feel like I cheated, but was I within the rules? I haven't seen that rules posted anywhere, so do I trust the starter or trust my guts?
[/quote]

The Decision says they can't do that but they have. The USGA aren't there so do what the man asks you to do.

[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-33/#33-8/35"]Link to Decision[/url]
[/quote]

The course should have the area designated an ESA that plays as a lateral hazard. Problem solved.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Harry Longshanks' timestamp='1283877044' post='2683349']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1283876522' post='2683335']
[quote name='Par Fore' timestamp='1283874998' post='2683271']
So, I feel like I cheated, but was I within the rules? I haven't seen that rules posted anywhere, so do I trust the starter or trust my guts?
[/quote]

The Decision says they can't do that but they have. The USGA aren't there so do what the man asks you to do.

[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-33/#33-8/35"]Link to Decision[/url]
[/quote]

The course should have the area designated an ESA that plays as a lateral hazard. Problem solved.
[/quote]

The USGA has a general guideline for what may be considered an ESA as well...

Better to follow the guidelines to solve many rules issues in the future that are unavoidable...

A Hazard is a Hazard. Desert is Desert. Woods are Woods, unless you are swinging them, then they are Metals, but thats another discussion.

Kevin

[BENCHMADE]

So just to get this strait on a provisional ball.

A player Ts up and drives his ball out of bounds. "Is this one stroke plus a one stroke penalty??"

Player then Ts p a provisional and hits it down the faraway. " Is this one stroke plus a penalty??"

What I'm asking in this situation is the player now 4 strokes in??

[aliikane]

[quote name='BogeyDog11' timestamp='1283871075' post='2683146']
[quote name='bigred90gt' timestamp='1283863370' post='2682967']
Hitting a provisional is the way to go, when you think your ball could be lost or out of bounds. But, the OP did not ask what to do if you thought your ball could be lost or out of bounds when you are still on the tee box. [b]The question is about once you hit the ball, and from the tee box watch it, and follow it until it lands, and think to yourself, that is in play, I'll go find it and hit it, but when you get there, it is nowhere to be found (remember, since we're playing by the rules, you are only allowed 5 minutes to find it)[/b], or just OB (perhaps you did not know OB was in the area you hit your ball). In that case, you would not hit a provisional because you clearly saw the ball land, and were confident you could find it. On a crowded course, with everyone ready to kill you for trying to play by the rules, what do you do then?
[/quote]

If you are playing by the rules of golf as you stated, you return to the tee and hit your 3rd shot.
You can always wave the next group thru and return to the tee as they are leaving the tee.
In returning to the tee, you are not hitting a provisional, you are putting your 3rd shot in play.
[/quote]


[quote name='Par Fore' timestamp='1283874998' post='2683271']
Here's a variation on the question, kind of. I live in the Southwest and play a couple of desert courses. Off of the fairways is sand, sage brush, ect (bear in mind that these areas are not marked as OB or hazzard), the other day the starter says, something like, we ask that if you hit your ball in the desert to drop as if it is a lateral hazzard. I assume this is to speed up play since you can easily hit the ball in the desert and spend a while looking for it, or you can find it right off and play if if possible. So i'm playing the course and hit a bomb right in the desert, I hit a provisional determined to correct my right shot pull a hook left desert, crap, so I get mad and swing away and hit my thrid tee shot right down the guts. I'm pissed because I know that my first two balls will be lost so I'm laying 5. Then I remember the starter telling us to play the desert as a lateral so I drop three from where I assume my first ball crossed, I did look for the ball but could not find it. play was slow that day as it tends to be in 105 degree temps. So, I feel like I cheated, but was I within the rules? I haven't seen that rules posted anywhere, so do I trust the starter or trust my guts?
[/quote]


BogeyDog has most reasonable answer for adhering to the rules. But I just don't understand the rule. I don't think the penalty should be any greater than a water hazard, especially for a lost ball. just my opinion.

If I am posting a score and hit a ball down the fairway and lose it, I just post the maximum number for hole that ncga.org will allow for my handicap which is a double bogey. Then I just play the hole.

ParFore, I had a similar situation where I pumped to balls in the junk and went down the fairway to see there is a drop zone. So, I played the drop zone. Every course has their own local rules which do play under rules of golf. so, marshall was probably telling you a local rule.

[mike03a3]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1283866712' post='2683031']
areas of deep trees, say, "Stay away!"
[/quote]
Not to my ball they don't. Instead they whisper their leaves seductively and say "over here, over here"

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='BENCHMADE' timestamp='1283879466' post='2683421']
So just to get this strait on a provisional ball.

A player Ts up and drives his ball out of bounds. "Is this one stroke plus a one stroke penalty??"
[/quote]

Yes, the player is now required to hit another ball from the tee and is hitting his 3rd shot.

[quote]Player then Ts p a provisional and hits it down the faraway. " Is this one stroke plus a penalty??"

What I'm asking in this situation is the player now 4 strokes in??[/quote]

No, a provisional ball is not the ball in play until the first one is lost or found OB. Only then is the provisional ball the ball in play and lying 3.

[BENCHMADE]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1283881421' post='2683477']
[quote name='BENCHMADE' timestamp='1283879466' post='2683421']
So just to get this strait on a provisional ball.

A player Ts up and drives his ball out of bounds. "Is this one stroke plus a one stroke penalty??"
[/quote]

Yes, the player is now required to hit another ball from the tee and is hitting his 3rd shot.

[quote]Player then Ts p a provisional and hits it down the faraway. " Is this one stroke plus a penalty??"

What I'm asking in this situation is the player now 4 strokes in??[/quote]

No, a provisional ball is not the ball in play until the first one is lost or found OB. Only then is the provisional ball the ball in play and lying 3.
[/quote]

Thank you